p.s. I plan to audition the new Sanders ESLs and Magnepan 3.7 and 20.7 in the next year or three. They are all local (within an hour or so drive). Those are currently the main contenders for replacing my ca. 1984 MG-IIIa's.
Magnepans vs. Electrostatics. What is the better technology? What do you prefer?
- Thread starter caesar
- Start date
Don,
yes, the 20.7s still have the double side of magnets which gives them extra control and beyond the larger panels and longer treble ribbon you also get additional mass beyond the 3.7s. I have heard the 3.7i which has a weightier presentation than the original 3.7 and is something of a step towards its bigger sibling. I've only heard the previous Sanders ESLs a few times but any of those 3 choices seem pretty choice to me.
yes, the 20.7s still have the double side of magnets which gives them extra control and beyond the larger panels and longer treble ribbon you also get additional mass beyond the 3.7s. I have heard the 3.7i which has a weightier presentation than the original 3.7 and is something of a step towards its bigger sibling. I've only heard the previous Sanders ESLs a few times but any of those 3 choices seem pretty choice to me.
Ok quite a difference in price BUT here are my predictions regardless of price.
#1 = 20.7 - #2 = 3.7i - #3 = 10C - #4 = 11 this is just a prediction.
Could be. Not sure I have room for the 20's though that's always been my "dream" speaker. I was actually thinking about the new 10d. I am not really interested in the 11 -- prefer a larger panel and the cost is pretty close. I knew Roger ages ago but have also met a few of the Magnepan folk over the years (decades; none would remember me).
I have had several ESLs in my systems and listened to many more (including a number of your beloved Acoustats) but never owned a pair. Came close before getting my last Maggies... And a few years ago had prepared to buy either the Magnepan 20.1's or Sanders 10c, but Life smacked me down. As for now, I saved a bit and got a nice bonus, then the transmission went out in my son's car and after pouring $$$ into it the past few years we're going to have to get him another. He'll pay us back, eventually, but speakers are on hold again...
I have the advantage now of having a good pair of subs (Rythmik F12 servo design -- my last sub was also servo but one I designed and built myself) so it is likely I'll either have my IIIa's rebuilt or get a pair of 3.7i's as the best compromise among performance, size, and price; but I can always dream! I've always had a hankerin' for a pair of 'stats.
I have had several ESLs in my systems and listened to many more (including a number of your beloved Acoustats) but never owned a pair. Came close before getting my last Maggies... And a few years ago had prepared to buy either the Magnepan 20.1's or Sanders 10c, but Life smacked me down. As for now, I saved a bit and got a nice bonus, then the transmission went out in my son's car and after pouring $$$ into it the past few years we're going to have to get him another. He'll pay us back, eventually, but speakers are on hold again...
I have the advantage now of having a good pair of subs (Rythmik F12 servo design -- my last sub was also servo but one I designed and built myself) so it is likely I'll either have my IIIa's rebuilt or get a pair of 3.7i's as the best compromise among performance, size, and price; but I can always dream! I've always had a hankerin' for a pair of 'stats.
You should know by now that i'm not crazy about subs BUT the Magnepan MG-111a's are very good speakers no matter how old they are.
You should know by now that i'm not crazy about subs BUT the Magnepan MG-111a's are very good speakers no matter how old they are.
Just checked out the Sanders 10D list price is 15k just about the same as the 20.7 for ME it's a no brainer hybrid or full range i choose Magnepan of course others will choose Sanders it is also a very good speaker i'm sure.
PS: Audio Exklusiv P3.1 price 15k
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The Audio Exklusivs are available used for 4k Euros often. They are good but not great. for dynamism one needs to go off stats to ribbon magnets, or add a woofer. Full range is just one aspect, most full range stats find bass and dynamics to be a problem
Hi Don, here is a comparison of Maggie 3.7 with the GTA planars (the ones from NJ). You will have to read the second page, it gets discussed in multiple posts. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113912.20
Maggie discussion starts with Reply #28, half way down the 2nd page
"Steve, As Rusty stated, room & gear dependent. In my opinion the sweet spot for both speakers is similar, both sound their best dead center but the GTA 2s have a bigger/wider sweet area. It was the lack of dynamic aliveness, ability to pressurize the room in the mid/low bass, and bass extension deficiencies of the 3.7 that left me flat, female vocals were superb however. The GTA 2s are one of the best sounding speakers that almost nobody has heard!"
Hey Bonzo,
Yes mate, agreed to a certain extent but not totally.
Once again your claim, stats sounding too thin and cannot do bass in full range is a load of bollocks with a capital "B!"
I think you're problem of stats sounding too thin is because they were driven with solid state amplification. Try a tube or as they call it in London "valve" amp with stats and you'll realize what I'm talking about. After listening to the big Omega's with VTL 750 monoblocks, my lasting impressions were nothing but remarkable! On the other hand, I have auditioned extensively to my same Quads driven with Conrad Johnson's top of the line ART monoblocks, as well as top of the line Lamm ML2 series monoblocks, and lasting impressions were "outstanding." So there you have it!
Yes, the Omega's had very good bass and went lower compared to the stats but then again the mid-range was not as pristine as the stats. The Omega's had great depth and dynamic scale but they didn't have that special "enveloping" depth and soundstage compared to stats because the dispersion pattern is totally different on the Quad stats. This comparison would go on and on, hence that is why I said that the Omega's would definitely be most enjoyable as a second system, and I highly recommend them. But I just prefer my Quads since they give me more pleasure of endless hours of musicality without having to turn up levels for dynamic realism.
The other thing is you mentioned that Quads cut out, yes they do when played really loud, and that is "stupid loud." So frankly mate I really don't know what your hearing levels are capable of, only thing is I can see that you certainly like to push the limits...
If you really must go so loud that you would like to see speakers cut out, then perhaps a pair of Cervin Vega's will do the trick.
There is no speaker on this planet that will drive "unlimited" in power. That's a silly claim because when too loud it will distort and everything goes into clipping. Hence the reason why we will never achieve a live performance in our listening rooms, it is a silly quest. Nothing compares to the real live instrument on any given occasion. Although mch may be enjoyable but will not replicate a live event. When my daughter practices her trombone, I just sit and listen in awe... We can only get so close to whatever we have, and most high-end system's main goal is to heighten the enjoyment of "recorded" music.
Musical Fidelity whatever mono's driving stats, obviously would sound anaemic. Listen to stats with any good valve amps, even something up there the better. SS mid-entry-level, doesn't do wonders with stats.
If you are very keen on SS I suggest you should try Gryphon, Vitus Audio, Pass Labs, Lamm or Boulder; these are all top notch class A wattage rating amplifiers, and they will make any stat sound absolutely life like.
There is one system that a forum member has here, Whatmore, who has the Sanders driven with two Magtech amps, and they sound excellent! The main reason the Sanders sound so life like is because they are in synergy with the amps, and it is a perfect match. Anything to better that sound would be upgrading the amps to far more costly designs, and then the vicious cycle begins; must upgrade speakers, must upgrade amps, must upgrade cable, interconnects and the list is never ending...
Ref to the AA's Omega's sounding very nice, I must claim that they were driven with 750 watts of tube power! Not a whole lot of people can afford 750 watt monoblocks...
Overall, I strongly believe that there are many fantastic systems out there, and we haven't heard all of them. Hence, when a reviewer claims that this is the best sounding system they have ever heard!... is definitely a load of bollocks! There are so many factors to consider when making such claims, we can only take these as guidelines. There are many well designed audio gear that provides what is called value for money, and I believe those are Sanders, no doubt, Maggies, Quads, Acoustats, Martin Logans, Apogee's, AA's etc, and then there are those that will break the bank account and "must sound fantastic" because they are at extraordinary prices, but they actually don't. They would only sound better in small margins on certain tracks of recorded music.
I strongly believe in the law of diminishing returns, and to be satisfied with what you've already got and just enjoy that as much as you can afford, is a true classic sense of the word an "audiophile".
Even if it is a dam coconut in a tin can, and gives you that special enjoyment, enjoy it!
Now, I am heading out to the lounge because Casandra Wilson will be visiting tonight and singing some special tunes. I think I'll need two scotches!
Cheers to all, and enjoy your systems
RJ
Yes mate, agreed to a certain extent but not totally.
Once again your claim, stats sounding too thin and cannot do bass in full range is a load of bollocks with a capital "B!"
I think you're problem of stats sounding too thin is because they were driven with solid state amplification. Try a tube or as they call it in London "valve" amp with stats and you'll realize what I'm talking about. After listening to the big Omega's with VTL 750 monoblocks, my lasting impressions were nothing but remarkable! On the other hand, I have auditioned extensively to my same Quads driven with Conrad Johnson's top of the line ART monoblocks, as well as top of the line Lamm ML2 series monoblocks, and lasting impressions were "outstanding." So there you have it!
Yes, the Omega's had very good bass and went lower compared to the stats but then again the mid-range was not as pristine as the stats. The Omega's had great depth and dynamic scale but they didn't have that special "enveloping" depth and soundstage compared to stats because the dispersion pattern is totally different on the Quad stats. This comparison would go on and on, hence that is why I said that the Omega's would definitely be most enjoyable as a second system, and I highly recommend them. But I just prefer my Quads since they give me more pleasure of endless hours of musicality without having to turn up levels for dynamic realism.
The other thing is you mentioned that Quads cut out, yes they do when played really loud, and that is "stupid loud." So frankly mate I really don't know what your hearing levels are capable of, only thing is I can see that you certainly like to push the limits...
If you really must go so loud that you would like to see speakers cut out, then perhaps a pair of Cervin Vega's will do the trick.
There is no speaker on this planet that will drive "unlimited" in power. That's a silly claim because when too loud it will distort and everything goes into clipping. Hence the reason why we will never achieve a live performance in our listening rooms, it is a silly quest. Nothing compares to the real live instrument on any given occasion. Although mch may be enjoyable but will not replicate a live event. When my daughter practices her trombone, I just sit and listen in awe... We can only get so close to whatever we have, and most high-end system's main goal is to heighten the enjoyment of "recorded" music.
Musical Fidelity whatever mono's driving stats, obviously would sound anaemic. Listen to stats with any good valve amps, even something up there the better. SS mid-entry-level, doesn't do wonders with stats.
If you are very keen on SS I suggest you should try Gryphon, Vitus Audio, Pass Labs, Lamm or Boulder; these are all top notch class A wattage rating amplifiers, and they will make any stat sound absolutely life like.
There is one system that a forum member has here, Whatmore, who has the Sanders driven with two Magtech amps, and they sound excellent! The main reason the Sanders sound so life like is because they are in synergy with the amps, and it is a perfect match. Anything to better that sound would be upgrading the amps to far more costly designs, and then the vicious cycle begins; must upgrade speakers, must upgrade amps, must upgrade cable, interconnects and the list is never ending...
Ref to the AA's Omega's sounding very nice, I must claim that they were driven with 750 watts of tube power! Not a whole lot of people can afford 750 watt monoblocks...
Overall, I strongly believe that there are many fantastic systems out there, and we haven't heard all of them. Hence, when a reviewer claims that this is the best sounding system they have ever heard!... is definitely a load of bollocks! There are so many factors to consider when making such claims, we can only take these as guidelines. There are many well designed audio gear that provides what is called value for money, and I believe those are Sanders, no doubt, Maggies, Quads, Acoustats, Martin Logans, Apogee's, AA's etc, and then there are those that will break the bank account and "must sound fantastic" because they are at extraordinary prices, but they actually don't. They would only sound better in small margins on certain tracks of recorded music.
I strongly believe in the law of diminishing returns, and to be satisfied with what you've already got and just enjoy that as much as you can afford, is a true classic sense of the word an "audiophile".
Even if it is a dam coconut in a tin can, and gives you that special enjoyment, enjoy it!
Now, I am heading out to the lounge because Casandra Wilson will be visiting tonight and singing some special tunes. I think I'll need two scotches!
Cheers to all, and enjoy your systems
RJ
My Logans were driven by AR Ref 110. But yes, on the VFM point, I will probably end up buying the GT Audio planar, and then building up a ribbon magnetic multichannel that I can enjoy in 2-ch as well as Mch. Think about it, Auro 3d with ribbon magnets wow
Hey Bonzo,
What are you doing up so late? What time is it in London? It's bloody past midnight here and I've had a few after our Store's Christmas party...
Hey you mentioned cricket and Steve Waugh, to hec with Steve Waugh. He came into our store few weeks back, trying to promote his new book. There was one staff member who wanted his humble signature on her son's cricket bat but Steve said no, he is now regarded as arrogant and a snob with a capital "S".
I am into rugby mate, played for London Welsh division 4 and then went onto Kingsbury Div 1. Back in 1992/93 the All Blacks came around for their Autumn tour, and also happened to visit our club! They showed us how to properly scrum, that team was awesome; Sean Fitzpatrick, Craig Dowd, Olo Brown, Robin Brooke, Ian Jones, Kevin Jones, Jeremy Joseph, Zin Zan Brooke, Frank Bunce, Walter Little, Eroni Clarke, Grant Fox and the formidable Twiga Mala; f-me I broke all my bones mate! I've broken both my collar bones, right ankle, left shoulder dislocated, and have no cartilage left in both knees. I am just in my early 40's and already suffer from Osteoarthritis. If I sit for too long I cannot get up suddenly, until both knees go click clack, especially the left one, then I see a few stars and I'm all good!
Forget Steve Waugh, he cannot be compared to Sachin Tendulkar, Sanath Jayasuriya, Kumar Sangakara or the great Ricky Ponting. They are real classic chaps, even Michael Clarke is ok but not close to any of these guys. It's like comparing the ribbons out there to the Quads, the Quads are just the best mate!
What the hec is this GT speaker mate? Never heard of it, and why on earth are you getting rid of your ML and ARC Ref 110's? Hot dam, I would've loved to hold onto a system like that!
I think the ML's also require a pretty big room to sound fantastic, I certainly think the ARC Ref 110's would have been awesome enough!
Man you really confuse the hell out of me, now I feel like I was just hit by Twiga Mala on the wing and I'm having a concussion. Yes, I've had a few of those too but I've also knocked out many others as well on and off the field! All good stuff mate.
Cheers, RJ
What are you doing up so late? What time is it in London? It's bloody past midnight here and I've had a few after our Store's Christmas party...
Hey you mentioned cricket and Steve Waugh, to hec with Steve Waugh. He came into our store few weeks back, trying to promote his new book. There was one staff member who wanted his humble signature on her son's cricket bat but Steve said no, he is now regarded as arrogant and a snob with a capital "S".
I am into rugby mate, played for London Welsh division 4 and then went onto Kingsbury Div 1. Back in 1992/93 the All Blacks came around for their Autumn tour, and also happened to visit our club! They showed us how to properly scrum, that team was awesome; Sean Fitzpatrick, Craig Dowd, Olo Brown, Robin Brooke, Ian Jones, Kevin Jones, Jeremy Joseph, Zin Zan Brooke, Frank Bunce, Walter Little, Eroni Clarke, Grant Fox and the formidable Twiga Mala; f-me I broke all my bones mate! I've broken both my collar bones, right ankle, left shoulder dislocated, and have no cartilage left in both knees. I am just in my early 40's and already suffer from Osteoarthritis. If I sit for too long I cannot get up suddenly, until both knees go click clack, especially the left one, then I see a few stars and I'm all good!
Forget Steve Waugh, he cannot be compared to Sachin Tendulkar, Sanath Jayasuriya, Kumar Sangakara or the great Ricky Ponting. They are real classic chaps, even Michael Clarke is ok but not close to any of these guys. It's like comparing the ribbons out there to the Quads, the Quads are just the best mate!
What the hec is this GT speaker mate? Never heard of it, and why on earth are you getting rid of your ML and ARC Ref 110's? Hot dam, I would've loved to hold onto a system like that!
I think the ML's also require a pretty big room to sound fantastic, I certainly think the ARC Ref 110's would have been awesome enough!
Man you really confuse the hell out of me, now I feel like I was just hit by Twiga Mala on the wing and I'm having a concussion. Yes, I've had a few of those too but I've also knocked out many others as well on and off the field! All good stuff mate.
Cheers, RJ
Big dog, for me rugby is like box speakers - I don't get it.
The guy who had Lamm + the AA Amphis as his reference system introduced me to a small manufacturer starting off in New Jersey who makes ribbon magnet hybrids of the highest quality, costing only $6.5k. Extremely dynamic and great bass, and lovely midrange. They may fall short of AA in the best rooms and on the most complex music, but in most cases you wouldn't notice and I was totally drawn into them listening for 3 hours. Made of high quality stuff, and high energy ribbons. Very fast. And I just heard his working protoype, it wasn't even spiked. I already like it much better than Maggie, Quads, and ML summits
Here are some reviews
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113912.20
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...tening-Session&p=296976&viewfull=1#post296976
you will find more if you google GT Audio planar
Sachin was like a box speaker mate, lot of brand value, never performed when it counted
The guy who had Lamm + the AA Amphis as his reference system introduced me to a small manufacturer starting off in New Jersey who makes ribbon magnet hybrids of the highest quality, costing only $6.5k. Extremely dynamic and great bass, and lovely midrange. They may fall short of AA in the best rooms and on the most complex music, but in most cases you wouldn't notice and I was totally drawn into them listening for 3 hours. Made of high quality stuff, and high energy ribbons. Very fast. And I just heard his working protoype, it wasn't even spiked. I already like it much better than Maggie, Quads, and ML summits
Here are some reviews
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113912.20
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...tening-Session&p=296976&viewfull=1#post296976
you will find more if you google GT Audio planar
Sachin was like a box speaker mate, lot of brand value, never performed when it counted
Thanks all for the info and links.
I have always found ESL's have better bass with a nice big SS amp and that thin bass was usually an issue of setup and room, at least for bass as low as the panels handle it. Real deep bass I have only heard from hybrids or a few very large ESLs (Soundlabs, stacked Acoustats, etc.) Speaker placement and room treatment for dipoles is a huge part of their sound and critical for optimizing performance. Heavy room treatment makes them less sensitive to placement but less "alive", and even extensive room treatment may not fix problems with deep (<100 Hz) bass.
I have stated before that generally speaking ESLs and tubes make for awesome mids but IME/IMO restricted bass and distorted treble. With the usual caveat that I have not used a tube amp in the price range most of you appear to use; an old ARC D-79 was my main amp for years.
I have always found ESL's have better bass with a nice big SS amp and that thin bass was usually an issue of setup and room, at least for bass as low as the panels handle it. Real deep bass I have only heard from hybrids or a few very large ESLs (Soundlabs, stacked Acoustats, etc.) Speaker placement and room treatment for dipoles is a huge part of their sound and critical for optimizing performance. Heavy room treatment makes them less sensitive to placement but less "alive", and even extensive room treatment may not fix problems with deep (<100 Hz) bass.
I have stated before that generally speaking ESLs and tubes make for awesome mids but IME/IMO restricted bass and distorted treble. With the usual caveat that I have not used a tube amp in the price range most of you appear to use; an old ARC D-79 was my main amp for years.
For those that say bass is thin with solid state i wish you could hear Acoustat Spectra 8800s with the Plinius SA-250MK1V solid state amplifier then you would have to admit that YOU where wrong.
Had a few minutes over lunch and went to the GT Audio website. Interesting and worth adding to my list. I did not realize they are hybrid designs with planer mid/upper and conventional cone woofers. The secret in any such system is the integration and dealing with change in projection pattern moving from highs to lows. From the reviews it sounds like they got it right (again, not saying Sanders, ML et. al. have it "wrong").
The description on the site is not of a true ribbon tweeter, which is not necessarily a drawback but a difference. The description seems to be similar to Magnepan's quasi-ribbon design and frankly I tend to agree with his reasoning for that choice, not that it matters to him. The GTA 2 product page lists "ribbon tweeter" with no qualification so I am not sure what it really is. Curious more than concerned.
90 dB/1 W/1 m and 6 ohms are both nice specs compared to Magnepans and ESLs, be nice to know if the woofers dip below that.
Good value (I saw about $6k USD now?) especially bundled with bass amps.
Some of the reviews discuss a smaller GTA 1, and the current website alludes to a new model coming. Only GTA 2 appears on the website now; is that the only model being currently shipped?
The description on the site is not of a true ribbon tweeter, which is not necessarily a drawback but a difference. The description seems to be similar to Magnepan's quasi-ribbon design and frankly I tend to agree with his reasoning for that choice, not that it matters to him. The GTA 2 product page lists "ribbon tweeter" with no qualification so I am not sure what it really is. Curious more than concerned.
90 dB/1 W/1 m and 6 ohms are both nice specs compared to Magnepans and ESLs, be nice to know if the woofers dip below that.
Good value (I saw about $6k USD now?) especially bundled with bass amps.
Some of the reviews discuss a smaller GTA 1, and the current website alludes to a new model coming. Only GTA 2 appears on the website now; is that the only model being currently shipped?
I think the prototype I saw was for 2.5. Hardly any price difference though, he has 10 inch woofers now, you can change the crossover and the gain from the back easily. You can have any finish you like. For me they are much better than the Logan Summits I owned and the Quads and the Maggies I have heard. These are superbly dynamic. You can read more about them if you google, there are some show reviews, and the audiocircle forum has some fans. Bob M here has heard them as well
Cheers for the info bonzo, I will look into it, and perhaps learn something new as well. I don't think the gt speakers would be available in Australia. Apart from that as you may not know, Australia is a very expensive country. You cannot compare it to the US at all. Hec, even bread is double the price over here! It is a huge country with a very small market, and audio-ville is even smaller...
Nice to be on this thread in regards to planar speakers, certainly leart many new things here.
Cheers mate and all the best in your quest for that perfect all round ribbon, with vfm!
RJ
Nice to be on this thread in regards to planar speakers, certainly leart many new things here.
Cheers mate and all the best in your quest for that perfect all round ribbon, with vfm!
RJ
Well finally, managed to contact the dealer/distributor for AA ribbons. Con Dikios runs the place and I've got an audition set up for 3pm. He advises that I start with the Omricon and work my way up to the Omega. He's not probably aware that I've already listened to the Omega with massive vtl monoblocks.
Let's see how this demo goes and hope to report back with something remarkable!
Cheers, RJ
Let's see how this demo goes and hope to report back with something remarkable!
Cheers, RJ
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