Mark Levinson on today’s audio industry

[morricab]

Practically all sigma/delta dac chips contain digital filters. To the best of my knowledge only the PCM1794, among the older generation of chips, offered the option to bypass the digital filter and that required a specific input data format and mono operation. A single 1794 is doomed to use the filters.

Not sure Wadax disclose anywhere the exact TI chip, but the rather interesting speculation @Carlos269 offered assumes it is one of the newer generation chips, like the PCM5252. This chip contains what TI call miniDSP and gives the designer the option to either use the factory offered filters or create their own. Can this DSP be responsible for some very sophisticated sound manipulation? I personally find it unlikely.

Ok, could be something newer. My understanding is that they use some kind of standalone processor...perhaps based on a SHARC?

 

[gleeds]

Coincidentally my dear friend, Jim Yager, has bought a number of vintage ML amplifiers. They all worked great!

He replaced capacitors. I think the vintage ML amps also sound great (in his system, anyway). In his system I think his vintage Mark Levinson amplifiers sound more natural than his D'Agostino Progression amplifier (aggressive and emphasized in the treble compared to the ML amplifiers).

Viola Audio Labs still uses the choke filter power supplies used by ML in the early days, and the designs hold up very well today. Those designs were the work of the enigmatic Tom Colangelo (the man behind the curtain for ML amplifiers). My friend Paul Jayson remains President of Viola Audio Labs and did most, if not all, of the work on the Cello Audio Pallette and Cello pre-amplifiers. Paul is an outstanding amplifier designer in his own right, having created the Viola Labs Concerto from whole cloth and was an accomplished speaker designer responsible for the Cello speakers. Unlike many audio designers, Paul never blows his own horn and claims to know all the answers. An unheralded industry giant, in my estimation, and a finer gentleman you will not meet!

 

[Carlos269]

Viola Audio Labs still uses the choke filter power supplies used by ML in the early days, and the designs hold up very well today. Those designs were the work of the enigmatic Tom Colangelo (the man behind the curtain for ML amplifiers). My friend Paul Jayson remains President of Viola Audio Labs and did most, if not all, of the work on the Cello Audio Pallette and Cello pre-amplifiers. Paul is an outstanding amplifier designer in his own right, having created the Viola Labs Concerto from whole cloth and was an accomplished speaker designer responsible for the Cello speakers. Unlike many audio designers, Paul never blows his own horn and claims to know all the answers. An unheralded industry giant, in my estimation, and a finer gentleman you will not meet!

Couldn’t agree more, Paul Jayson is an ethical and gifted designer.. Paul’s designs speak for themselves.

 

[AudioLibertarian]

Viola Audio Labs still uses the choke filter power supplies used by ML in the early days, and the designs hold up very well today. Those designs were the work of the enigmatic Tom Colangelo (the man behind the curtain for ML amplifiers). My friend Paul Jayson remains President of Viola Audio Labs and did most, if not all, of the work on the Cello Audio Pallette and Cello pre-amplifiers. Paul is an outstanding amplifier designer in his own right, having created the Viola Labs Concerto from whole cloth and was an accomplished speaker designer responsible for the Cello speakers. Unlike many audio designers, Paul never blows his own horn and claims to know all the answers. An unheralded industry giant, in my estimation, and a finer gentleman you will not meet!

While the Cello Pallete series preamps were, are still are some of the best ever made, deserving their cult status, their amps were just ok, nothing special in my experience.... The Cello speakers were also nothing extra ordinary and that is not only my opinion I have to say... Naturally all the above reflects my sonic preferences..

 

[davidavdavid]

Mark Levinson and his blasted CANAC connections They shall be the death of me..my undoing.

Too dramatic??? Perhaps, but I just felt left out of the thread.

 

[Carlos269]

Mark Levinson and his blasted CANAC connections They shall be the death of me..my undoing.

Too dramatic??? Perhaps, but I just felt left out of the thread.

LEMO CAMAC connectors.

 

[Elliot G.]

This is the fact I'm curious to learn about. How were ML products priced relative to competing products in the 1970s and 1980s?

Was Mark Levinson, in fact, the Boulder of his day?

MLAS was the most expensive products of the time and it wasn't even close. I worked at Lyric back then and we sold loads of this stuff partially I think becasue it was by far and away tthe highest priced.
LNP-2
ML-2
HQD with LNC-2 electronic crossovers
then ML-7 and ML-3
sold truckloads

 

[andromedaaudio]

I have owned ml 29 power amp 431 power amp.
Ml 26 with those camac connections.

Ml 326 / 32 on 436 . Monoblocks and avalon ascendant in a dedicated dealer showroom got me into " high end "audio

 

[gleeds]

MLAS was the most expensive products of the time and it wasn't even close. I worked at Lyric back then and we sold loads of this stuff partially I think becasue it was by far and away tthe highest priced.
LNP-2
ML-2
HQD with LNC-2 electronic crossovers
then ML-7 and ML-3
sold truckloads

Ron et al. Lyric's, and therefore ML's first product, was, I believe, the LNP-2 pre-amplifier, which showed up during my first year there. It was 1975 or 76, but it could be off a bit. I recall the price was $2500; everyone said it would never sell. As Elliot stated, they flew off the shelf! The Tom Colangelo-designed ML-series amplifiers came a little later, and, of course, the incomparable HQD system. The Boulder of their day would be a fair analogy.

Other exceptional yet very expensive products of the day were the Sequerra tuner and the Nakamichi ZXL-1000 cassette decks, of which we also sold a ton. I'm not sure I agree with them being sold simply because of their high price. All were exceptional products, along with ARC and Jadis electronic, Mitch Cotter step-up transformer, and other exotica. Below is a well-documented history of the early ML products for those interested in delving further.

A History of Mark Levinson Audio Systems |    The Audio Standard

A History of Mark Levinson Audio Systemsby Chris Bennett and Barr

theaudiostandard.net

 

[Elliot G.]

Ron et al. Lyric's, and therefore ML's first product, was, I believe, the LNP-2 pre-amplifier, which showed up during my first year there. It was 1975 or 76, but it could be off a bit. I recall the price was $2500; everyone said it would never sell. As Elliot stated, they flew off the shelf! The Tom Colangelo-designed ML-series amplifiers came a little later, and, of course, the incomparable HQD system. The Boulder of their day would be a fair analogy.

Other exceptional yet very expensive products of the day were the Sequerra tuner and the Nakamichi ZXL-1000 cassette decks, of which we also sold a ton. I'm not sure I agree with them being sold simply because of their high price. All were exceptional products, along with ARC and Jadis electronic, Mitch Cotter step-up transformer, and other exotica. Below is a well-documented history of the early ML products for those interested in delving further.

A History of Mark Levinson Audio Systems |    The Audio Standard

A History of Mark Levinson Audio Systemsby Chris Bennett and Barr

theaudiostandard.net

I was not trying to say that they sold becasue of thier price alone but for those of us at Lyric we considered it the "best" at the time and it was the most expensive. IN NYC as many are aware that "fits" a lot of the upper east side clients who want the "best" and cost wasn't really the issue.
You need to remember there was so much less audio product available then, no internet, no youtube and only CES.
Things have certainly changed

 

[gleeds]

I was not trying to say that they sold becasue of thier price alone but for those of us at Lyric we considered it the "best" at the time and it was the most expensive. IN NYC as many are aware that "fits" a lot of the upper east side clients who want the "best" and cost wasn't really the issue.
You need to remember there was so much less audio product available then, no internet, no youtube and only CES.
Things have certainly changed

Indeed they have Elliot!

As Lyric alumni, we know we are in a new golden age of high-end audio at various price points. The most convincing illusion of real music at Munich l experienced was a complete system costing less than $150,000. Naturally, system costs go from there, and $1,000,000 is no longer rare!

While I did not have the opportunity to see and hear your new smaller form factor Geobel, the buzz was very good! The only thing missing were some Westminster monoblocks

FYI, The new Wadax box I did see and hear was killer! Congratulations on these new golden age offerings.

 

[Lagonda]

Indeed they have Elliot!

As Lyric alumni, we know we are in a new golden age of high-end audio at various price points. The most convincing illusion of real music at Munich l experienced was a complete system costing less than $150,000. Naturally, system costs go from there, and $1,000,000 is no longer rare!

While I did not have the opportunity to see and hear your new smaller form factor Geobel, the buzz was very good! The only thing missing were some Westminster monoblocks

FYI, The new Wadax box I did see and hear was killer! Congratulations on these new golden age offerings.

Golden age of pricing, that is for sure ! The industry is going to price itself right out of business !

 

[PYP]

Golden age of pricing, that is for sure ! The industry is going to price itself right out of business !

maybe, but maybe not. When one looks the vast amounts of hedge fund and venture capital funds, it is clear that there is a LOT of money floating around looking for a place to go. In New York City (as in many other cities), there is enormous wealth. Some of that will be spent on audio and the costs are not prohibitive for those folks.

Would be very interesting to see the distribution of prices and the estimated number of units sold at various price points. In other words, where is the market growing (if it is)? At the lower end, upper end, both?

 

[gleeds]

The new golden age of audio, in my opinion, has nothing to do with the cost of goods in today's marketplace. Undoubtedly, there is a market for $200k speakers, $100k amplifiers, DACs, etc. In the Munich 2024 thread, I wrote about a relatively modest system that was the best show, even compared to the mega systems from exceptional global brands. This consisted of the following:

$25,000 DAC (tube-based)
$55,000 speaker (horns)
$55,000 integrated amplifier (GM-70 tube-based)
$12,000 cables loom
Mac Mini server fed USB to the DAC as a source
System total: $137,000

The system offered a sublimely musical and emotionally engaging sound that can do everything, so one does not spend a king's ransom! Some people buy Patek Phillip and Audimere Piaget, and some buy Tudor and Longine, they are great expamles of the genre but for different buyers. In short all is well in the high-end.

 

[Lagonda]

The new golden age of audio, in my opinion, has nothing to do with the cost of goods in today's marketplace. Undoubtedly, there is a market for $200k speakers, $100k amplifiers, DACs, etc. In the Munich 2024 thread, I wrote about a relatively modest system that was the best show, even compared to the mega systems from exceptional global brands. This consisted of the following:

$25,000 DAC (tube-based)
$55,000 speaker (horns)
$55,000 integrated amplifier (GM-70 tube-based)
$12,000 cables loom
Mac Mini server fed USB to the DAC as a source
System total: $137,000

The system offered a sublimely musical and emotionally engaging sound that can do everything, so one does not spend a king's ransom! Some people buy Patek Phillip and Audimere Piaget, and some buy Tudor and Longine, they are great expamles of the genre but for different buyers. In short all is well in the high-end.

Yes $ 137,000 is a steal ! What a low budget system ! The audio industry has lost all sense of shame. Pricing everything to get maximum dollars out of the extremely wealthy is driving the bread and butter customers away. I will never pay the new prices you are charging for your second and third tier products.

 

[matthias]

Basically ML is right
BUT it is a market and a lot of audiophiles seem to be able and willing to pay the prices of audiophile gear
AND tbh ML does exactly the same as other high end companies

 

[PeterA]

I agree you are an excellent drummer (on your favorite topics).

Especially on classics like Moby Dick.

 

[PeterA]

Thats up to you Ron. Audiophile J has how many subscribers? How about you. Its numbers.

And how come you never asked to interview me. Power is about the most important part of the chain. Yet no one seems to care. Is it really about sound, Image or add revenue.

What do you mean no one seems to care? I care a lot about how electricity gets to my components. That’s a different topic though from this thread.

 

[gleeds]

Thats up to you Ron. Audiophile J has how many subscribers? How about you. Its numbers.

And how come you never asked to interview me. Power is about the most important part of the chain. Yet no one seems to care. Is it really about sound, Image or add revenue.

Have you asked to be interviewed?

We care deeply and advise everyone to ensure good baseline power before anything else. I know your practice goes much further, and I applaud you for doing something significant in an area that can make all the difference in high-end systems.

 

[Kingrex]

Have you asked to be interviewed?

We care very deeply and advise everyone to ensure they have good baseline power before anything else. I know your practice takes this much further. I applaud you for doing something significant in an area that can make all the difference in high-end systems.

Not by Ron.
I was asked to do a presentation at Pacific Audio Fest. But I needed to have a power point ready before they would schedule me. I did not have one. Don't know I have time at the moment. Not this year. I would like to do a seminar at a show. I should probably do Axpona and Munich.

Audiophile Junkie had me on a couple episodes.

OCD and I talked but I thought his setup while for the most part done ok had some eccentricities that were not code. Also nothing a user would be able to install, so his perceptions of what something sounds like may be skewed. Part of why I go for all copper. Its UL listed and labeled and anyone can install it as I specify.

I have 3 pending reviews with social media or publications. I sort of shot myself in the foot with the biggest magazine when I asked the reviewer why not take care of the walls with double rock or other such stuff while we had it open routing new wire. That process has dragged out for near a year now. Now that I am moving to Vashon Island, I don't know I will have the ability to do the work myself which I was intending to do. It was going to be a 3 part install. Here is stock electrician parts. Here is all copper parts. Here is Romex vs my grain oriented twisted wire (Have not made any in over a year). Here is an isolation transformer as well as unfiltered circuits to compare filters.

I really need to write a book. I have a lot of marked up images from over 100 jobs to explain how I want the wiring attached. My specification is specific to each job, but my master spec covers it all.

I have enough parts to make about 15 more all copper SqD NQ panelboards. Then I may be running into SqD following suit of all the other manufacturer and not provided copper throughout the panel. Commercial users are cheap. They only want low cost parts. Just the mechanical copper lugs on the input to the panel are costing me $350 a set. And I have been waiting now for 8 month to get more. I sort of think they are never going to make another manufacturing run. Owe well. I have enough to do my new home. I can always strip the important parts if I move and replace them with stock aluminum. There are certain parts that are special and make it come together. If someone were to purchase a panel from me and move, they could remove a few key components and put them in a new NQ interior and have a great panel again. It would only take and electrician about an hour to remove and replace with stock. Leave the rest. The can, interior and cover are all readily available.