wow...that must have taken some serious time and technical work. removing all the passive crossovers and then reinserting active amps for each driver?...done right, i can only imagine how stupendous that must sound. I have read from Flemming Rasmussen (Founder of Gryphon, my favorite amplification) that nothing beats an amp specifically designed for and dedicated to a specific driver. The problem with amp designing in general is that you've got to design a piece of equipment without knowing what it is going to be attached to...big speakers, small, wicked phases/impedance curves, different damping requirements, etc. Congrats.
Martin-Logan Owners
- Thread starter MylesBAstor
- Start date
wow...that must have taken some serious time and technical work. removing all the passive crossovers and then reinserting active amps for each driver?...done right, i can only imagine how stupendous that must sound. I have read from Flemming Rasmussen (Founder of Gryphon, my favorite amplification) that nothing beats an amp specifically designed for and dedicated to a specific driver. The problem with amp designing in general is that you've got to design a piece of equipment without knowing what it is going to be attached to...big speakers, small, wicked phases/impedance curves, different damping requirements, etc. Congrats.
Well i may aswell start here though i'll do an intro in the new member section too.
ML user for 7 years now, currently using modified Spires, write up on ML owners forum, a few familiar names here too.. The Spires were good, but not quite great. I have over a two year period got them to sound really very good, possibly great? Removal of all the electronics, rebuild of the crossover with Clarity MR, Duelund resistors & Mundorf foil inductors, direct soldered the trafo to the panel, Clad the bass cab in Ceasarstone and granite, each speaker now weighs 52kg instead of original 26kg, and better planted for it, panel is very rigid now. Fitted Finite Elemente cerabases instead of spikes, all run from A PS Audio P10.
All driven by redbook source, MBL 1531 with Concert Fidelity DAC 040. As we are now UK distributor for CF, we use the 080 LSXv2 & ZL120V2SE mono power amps. The sound is sublime, so clean and pure, transparent, dynamic with real weight and punch when required. Music is varied but often Classical & Jazz dominate the playlist. I also own ASR Emitter2 exclusive, very nice amp indeed, but sadly no match for the Concert Fidelity in terms of transparency and definition, esp at the f extremes.
Paul.
ML user for 7 years now, currently using modified Spires, write up on ML owners forum, a few familiar names here too.. The Spires were good, but not quite great. I have over a two year period got them to sound really very good, possibly great? Removal of all the electronics, rebuild of the crossover with Clarity MR, Duelund resistors & Mundorf foil inductors, direct soldered the trafo to the panel, Clad the bass cab in Ceasarstone and granite, each speaker now weighs 52kg instead of original 26kg, and better planted for it, panel is very rigid now. Fitted Finite Elemente cerabases instead of spikes, all run from A PS Audio P10.
All driven by redbook source, MBL 1531 with Concert Fidelity DAC 040. As we are now UK distributor for CF, we use the 080 LSXv2 & ZL120V2SE mono power amps. The sound is sublime, so clean and pure, transparent, dynamic with real weight and punch when required. Music is varied but often Classical & Jazz dominate the playlist. I also own ASR Emitter2 exclusive, very nice amp indeed, but sadly no match for the Concert Fidelity in terms of transparency and definition, esp at the f extremes.
Paul.
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Welcome to WBF Paul.
Been hearing a lot about the Clarity caps (some are actually inside my phono stage!). How did you come to select them for use in your xover? Did you prefer them to the Dueland caps?
Thank you Myles, It's good to be here, it's certainly one of the better forum's around in my opinion.
Re the capacitor choices, it is very difficult. The Spire crossover requires 2x 47uf, 1 x 33uf, 1 x 15uf, and a 2.2uf each channel. So that is a pretty heavy investment when looking at caps of the likes of Duelund, clarity etc. The cast were prohibitive, though i was very keen to learn about what they would let through. At over 7k, (GBP) it was not an option, as i'd have them built to order. The clarity MR came in at around 3.5k (GBP), which was still a chunk but i was ok with that, and over many months of reading and discussion, opted blind so to speak for the MR. The vsf was also an option, but knowledge gained from others led me to believe that the MR was sonically where i was hoping to be. Of course, it is impossible to try out others, so the order went in and after two months Clarity delivered. Tolerances were pretty accurate, and the caps were huge! Sound wise i have never regretted the choice, it does make a huge difference along with careful building and layout. I know Ack (Peter) has worked on his ML's too, we trade experiences over on MLO.
A few pics of the build..
Re the capacitor choices, it is very difficult. The Spire crossover requires 2x 47uf, 1 x 33uf, 1 x 15uf, and a 2.2uf each channel. So that is a pretty heavy investment when looking at caps of the likes of Duelund, clarity etc. The cast were prohibitive, though i was very keen to learn about what they would let through. At over 7k, (GBP) it was not an option, as i'd have them built to order. The clarity MR came in at around 3.5k (GBP), which was still a chunk but i was ok with that, and over many months of reading and discussion, opted blind so to speak for the MR. The vsf was also an option, but knowledge gained from others led me to believe that the MR was sonically where i was hoping to be. Of course, it is impossible to try out others, so the order went in and after two months Clarity delivered. Tolerances were pretty accurate, and the caps were huge! Sound wise i have never regretted the choice, it does make a huge difference along with careful building and layout. I know Ack (Peter) has worked on his ML's too, we trade experiences over on MLO.
A few pics of the build..
Hi there! Finally you joined... you should post your structural changes too. Paul's work is MUCH better than the manufacturer's itself, and an inspiration. These mods catapult ML hybrids to the ~$30K range.
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That's one heck of a beautifully built xover! So you guys personally removed and worked on the xover yourselves? In what areas did these caps make the biggest difference? ML just recently became available in the local market and the few times I've heard it I've been mightily impressed by the Montis. Is there a big performance gap between the Summit and the Montis?
In the recently active ; Is there reason for panel speakers with box speakers being so good - thread, someone claimed the Montis with a proper subwoofer is not only the better bargain, but better sounding than the Summit. Don't shoot me if I misquoted the person, I'm sure they will pipe in soon to correct me on some point.
Beautiful caps, I'm going to have to try that one day.
Hello Peter, good to hear from you again, your comments are always pleasing to read! I trust you are enjoying yours?
dafos, Yes, all work was carried out by the hands that type this! It's not solely the caps that make the difference, but i expect they are the major contributor to the improvements. Transparency and dynamics were key areas of improvement, image placement is i'm sure a side effect of the transparency gains, but there is a marked definition to the palpability of the sound. Re Montis vs Summit, (I presume you mean Summit x), I have not spent enough time comparing the two, and each time i have heard them it has been in an unfamiliar system and room. Saying that, i did not think the Summit x was brining more music into the room, they are both good. If i were looking at either, i'd probably opt for the Montis and make a few tweaks like feet, add bass cab granite etc.
Here are the cabinets Peter suggested i show..
Yes, we've all done the work ourselves. All these mods make a huge difference up and down the entire spectrum, nothing short of a major component upgrade. With mine for example, I was unable to properly reproduce organ before; it's got all its glory now with a major wow factor, save for sheer size. They remove layers and layers of veil, distortion and noise; add significant speed, scale and dynamics, and you can now easily hear the _sinusoidal_ decay of notes (which is, in fact, now also much longer in duration), and that adds to the realism; make for really fast, tight and articulate bass; and most of all... this is how you actually properly blend the woofers with the panel in terms of speed and articulation. My speakers are more difficult to work with in that region, because they include both an 8" and 10" woofer operating in different and overlapping passbands (see Wilson Alexia), but I feel I got it right; and like the Prodigy (and the Alexia), they have non-parallel walls except the sides. All in all, I have spent well over 300 hours on these crossover and structural mods and listening tests, but really worth it and fun.
I truly admire the mod work that UK Paul and ack do. Successfully modding a passive x-over is very hard to do (IMHO). And the workmanship you guys have is inspiring.
Many thanks for the generous comments here, like Ack, I enjoy the work and benefit from the effort every day! All being well, my Spires will be used at the (UK) National Audio Show 2013 as part of Concert Fidelity system.. You are all welcome too..!
Hola... here is a little trick that I am using for harmonic texture and to have the musical notes singing with the right time decay. I have my guitars tuned at different musical notes, and when a piano note is play, as an example, due to the sympathetic resonance, the strings of the guitars starts to sing along with those notes, adding to my sound a harmonic richness and texture to the sound of any instrument that it is tuned at 440Hz=A musical note. The strings resonate and add echoes at micro level, that your brain picks them up, and my room is filled with more natural sound. The piano is breath taking. The strings are more strings...I am adding harmonics. If you try to listen to them at one meter away from the guitars, you perceive them, now I am enjoying much more my music. I am re-discovering things that I had never listened before...yes, I had made a lot of changes in my system...and I am in heaven right now. Happy listening!
Aerius i's were my primary speakers for years driven by ARC pre and Mccormack dna 0.5. Small room with great sound. The MLs have been re paneled and have been relegated to my HT with a Cinema center channel. No plans to change a thing. I still say Aerius is one of the best integrated hybrids they ever mfd.
Yes...the best selling model of ML actually. And their sound is very musical with tons of inner detail. I do like them a lot. Enjoy your Aerius. By the way, the Electromotion model is the legacy of the Aerius, they also, do sound really nice. Thanks for sharing! Happy listening.
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Hi all, new member, long time fan and owner of Martin Logan products. Heard the CLS back in 1986 or so while I was looking for the fabled Infinity RS-1B. Many of The Absolute Sound writers owned the 1B and claimed it to be one of the finest speakers, and being a young whipper snapper, I determined that I should seek a pair out and save for them. Never did get to own a pair 'til a few years later, but I heard the CLS, and my paradigm changed. Completely. To this day, Pete Seeger and the Weavers at Carnegie Hall played back through the CLS is a magical experience. I still own a pair of CLS 2z with Depth subs and the X crossover module among my collection.
Anyway, just wanted to say hi to everyone!
Best,
Adrian Low
Anyway, just wanted to say hi to everyone!
Best,
Adrian Low
Hola Adrian... the very first model that listened was the CLSs at the Summer Consumers Electronic Show at Chicago back in 1987. Mussatex Audio from Canada, was demoing their products through a pair of CLSs. I was walking with my dad through the aisle, and when I listened Vivaldi, (Four Seasons and the experience is unforgettable) I exclaimed: Dad, that's the sound that I am seeking! Let's get inside here!. At that time, the badges were very fancy, and being International, everybody looked at you, due to those red tags attached to the badge. When I went into the room, the speakers were hidden from your eyes, you must come in into the room. They were placed at the left side of the room at the back, with some light behind on each of them on the floor, firing the light to a very nice potted green plants placed behind them too. My eyes did pop out!! And the sound was so good, clear, crispy, mellow, with the right harmonic texture, boy, I was in heaven!. Of course I asked what speakers were those see through curtains metal sieve. Since then, I became addicted to Martin Logan. I became their representative here in Costa Rica, since then. I met, at the Conrad Johnson dinner meeting for distributors, two great gentlemen: Mr. Jim Power and Mr. Gayle Sanders. So, I became also, their test rabbit lab with the stat panels and the coating for the diaphragm, to make it conductive. Then, the Factory designed a special chamber for testing the coating, changing dramatically the weather environment: humidity and the temperature. O these days, the diaphragm is so thin, that weights less than the air the it moves!!! There is no inertia at all. We all know that any objet with mass, once has being moved, because of its weight, it will not stop moving right away, due to its mass. The ML does stop right away!. Remember that the sound is caused by a change of pressure in the air that it moves. If you have a signal applied, the membrane is moving, and when there is no signal, the ideal is to stop moving. ML diaphragm does that. A reason why the sound is so crystal clear. Of course ML is not perfect. There are flaws, but minor flaws...also, what I do like, not necessary must be your liking. Everything it is a matter of taste.
Right now I am a happy owner of the CLX model. The new panel, as you do know, is a totally different that the previous. It has more exposed to the air, about 40%, making this to have on these days, a very not too hungry watts. You can use many amplifiers with low wattage, that with the previous models, you were not allow. My room is small, and they truly sing for me! I wish to you, a very happy listening! (Please forgive my English)
Right now I am a happy owner of the CLX model. The new panel, as you do know, is a totally different that the previous. It has more exposed to the air, about 40%, making this to have on these days, a very not too hungry watts. You can use many amplifiers with low wattage, that with the previous models, you were not allow. My room is small, and they truly sing for me! I wish to you, a very happy listening! (Please forgive my English)
Hi Roberto, your experience with the CLS brings back many fond memories for me too. I remember seeing the CLS in a client's home where he had lights shining up behind the speakers...absolutely beautiful. To this day, a pair of CLS still looks very classy, though perhaps, for me, finished in a darker wood. I love how I can use them in smaller rooms. And what a great conversation piece. In my store, new visitors always go up to the speakers and put their ears up against the pane, then shake their heads and wonder how they could be speakers! In many ways, Martin Logans are a great option for people who want great music but don't like to look at traditional/boring box speakers.
I had a pair of CLX for quite a while, finally sold it to a friend. The speakers are just too big to display in my store, and hard to move them around, which is a necessary evil as we need to demonstrate many different speakers. Having said that, I do miss them.
I see that you have the Sonic Frontiers Line 2 preamp. I used to be the largest dealer in Canada until the company was sold. The founders went to the same University as I did, at the same time!
Best wishes
Adrian Low
I had a pair of CLX for quite a while, finally sold it to a friend. The speakers are just too big to display in my store, and hard to move them around, which is a necessary evil as we need to demonstrate many different speakers. Having said that, I do miss them.
I see that you have the Sonic Frontiers Line 2 preamp. I used to be the largest dealer in Canada until the company was sold. The founders went to the same University as I did, at the same time!
Best wishes
Adrian Low