Master Built-What are Owners Hearing That They Didn't Hear With Other Cables

[JackD201]

Just so there is less chance of confusion, Public Domain is sometimes used to mean out in the public, the legal meaning in a nutshell is that there are no more proprietary rights except for the purpose of the creator being credited. So, patents are indeed made public so in normal speak are in the "public domain" but if the patent period is still in force it means the owners rights can not be impinged upon and so are not in the public domain. I know. Oh boy, right?

Hi Rodney, Keith beat ya to 'em

 

[Leif S]

I haven't kept current with this thread in a while and after reading it earlier, I wanted to post a comment but saw the thread was closed. Since this is apparently the thread that won't stay dead, I'm pleased to see that I can ask the following question to Leif.

Leif, was your comment in post #563. I'd appreciate it if you would address this:

"Any patent description would have to necessarily include insulation type and application, non-metallic agents added to the exterior of the wire for various purposes, our proprietary shielding, our winding geometry, and other trade secrets that took hundreds of thousands of dollars to perfect. If we published our patents, it would become a recipe for other companies to copy. It is common knowledge that by slightly altering just one step of the materials and process, a competitor could easily side-step the patent, making it worthless or extremely expensive to defend."

Leif, this is confusing to me. As you know, all granted patents are published. Even patent applications are searchable after 18 months of filing. May I see the patent(s)? My only interest is education. The patents are in the public domain if they have been granted. Why would I not able to read them?

More importantly, it seems to me that listing the patents would quiet the concern of some who think MB has had some mis-steps along the way (as they themselves have admitted). I've read patents on Shunyata cables, CMS racks and many other audiophile products. I don't understand the concern MB has with listing its patents. Patents are protected for a reason. The only reason I can't find them is because I do not know the name of the patent holder. Why would this be information you do not wish to share? It's already in the public domain! Please advise.
Thanks
Marty

Hi Marty,

To be frank, and I say this with all due respect, I'm not concerned with the few people who have concerns about MasterBuilt. Not one dealer, or one distributor, or one owner has either.

I think it's common knowledge that the engineers for MB work in the aerospace industry and have contracts with the military. Do me a favor and this is for fun Let's see how many patents anybody can find from Lockheed Skunkworks for the A-12 that later became the SR-71 Blackbird. Or the guidance systems to the Mars Rover. Or the special coatings that go on the Stealth Fighter. Lockheed has so many patents. Do people think the public has access to them? I don't even know the real name of the materials used in the MasterBuilt cables lol. I don't know whats patented and whats not. I'm just the distributor. I don't care about their technology or patents. All I care about is what we hear when we use these cables. And even if I did know, I 100% most certainly wouldn't post it. I'm rather enjoying what these cables do compared to all the other cables we've used.

I know other manufacturers in this industry that literally stole someone else amplifier design, slapped it in a new chassis, threw a new brand name on it, and there you go, a new company product is born. And I've seen a cable company basically steal another companies designs, change the appearance and a couple other little things, have them built in China, and low and behold, we got another cable manufacturer with astronomical prices . Why is it so complicated for people to understand that MB will not share the information that "they" spent the time, money, and all the research to develop their product lines over the last 8 years. Is it just me that thinks this is strange that people are asking for their secrets?

We didn't take on the MB cable distribution because of what the tech was behind the cables, we took them on because of how much more detail, width and depth to the sound stage, well you read the thread and what owners are saying.

I don't care about the patents on the Shunyata cables either. Does a patent tell you how that cable sounds? Let me ask you this because I don't know the answer to this..... Did Shunyata come up with their own type of Teflon coating or application process? Do they have a patent for that? Do they hold a patent for the formulation of any of the materials used in their cables? Maybe they do, I don't really know. If they want to share that information that's great.

Anyway, I'm sorry but MB will not be revealing any of this information.

 

[Leif S]

Just so there is less chance of confusion, Public Domain is sometimes used to mean out in the public, the legal meaning in a nutshell is that there are no more proprietary rights except for the purpose of the creator being credited. So, patents are indeed made public so in normal speak are in the "public domain" but if the patent period is still in force it means the owners rights can not be impinged upon and so are not in the public domain. I know. Oh boy, right?

Hi Rodney, Keith beat ya to 'em

Keith got them lol

That figures

 

[JackD201]

Well here's the good news for you Leif. I'm friggin' out of demos. Building up orders now for us and dealer demos for just one go. That adage that bad publicity is still publicity, seemed to ring true. For all our frustration there's that silver lining. Oh the irony.

Anyway, back to patents, trade secrets are certainly not new. How long has Coca-Cola gone without patenting their formula? More than a century? Trade secrets even if not protected by patents are protected in a couple of instances. The main one is that the information is stolen from the outside, the second is that an insider attempts to sell them without consent. Reverse engineering is not punishable.

 

[Leif S]

Well here's the good news for you Leif. I'm friggin' out of demos. Building up orders now for us and dealer demos for just one go. That adage that bad publicity is still publicity, seemed to ring true. For all our frustration there's that silver lining. Oh the irony.

Anyway, back to patents, trade secrets are certainly not new. How long has Coca-Cola gone without patenting their formula? More than a century? Trade secrets even if not protected by patents are protected in a couple of instances. The main one is that the information is stolen from the outside, the second is that an insider attempts to sell them without consent. Reverse engineering is not punishable.

Are you really out of demos? Crap!!! We got to fix that.

Well the publicity from the owners is great. Mix a little bad in there with people who want to know what MB is doing lol. I'll take the mix of good with the bad vs. no publicity any day of the week.

And I agree with everything you have posted. I guess I'm surprised that this is even in the discussion. It's all good though.

 

[Leif S]

Well here's the good news for you Leif. I'm friggin' out of demos. Building up orders now for us and dealer demos for just one go. That adage that bad publicity is still publicity, seemed to ring true. For all our frustration there's that silver lining. Oh the irony.

Anyway, back to patents, trade secrets are certainly not new. How long has Coca-Cola gone without patenting their formula? More than a century? Trade secrets even if not protected by patents are protected in a couple of instances. The main one is that the information is stolen from the outside, the second is that an insider attempts to sell them without consent. Reverse engineering is not punishable.

Maybe you can borrow some from "Mr. King of the Ultra" lol

 

[DaveyF]

Hi Marty,

To be frank, and I say this with all due respect, I'm not concerned with the few people who have concerns about MasterBuilt. Not one dealer, or one distributor, or one owner has either.

I think it's common knowledge that the engineers for MB work in the aerospace industry and have contracts with the military. Do me a favor and this is for fun Let's see how many patents anybody can find from Lockheed Skunkworks for the A-12 that later became the SR-71 Blackbird. Or the guidance systems to the Mars Rover. Or the special coatings that go on the Stealth Fighter. Lockheed has so many patents. Do people think the public has access to them? I don't even know the real name of the materials used in the MasterBuilt cables lol. I don't know whats patented and whats not. I'm just the distributor. I don't care about their technology or patents. All I care about is what we hear when we use these cables. And even if I did know, I 100% most certainly wouldn't post it. I'm rather enjoying what these cables do compared to all the other cables we've used.

I know other manufacturers in this industry that literally stole someone else amplifier design, slapped it in a new chassis, threw a new brand name on it, and there you go, a new company product is born. And I've seen a cable company basically steal another companies designs, change the appearance and a couple other little things, have them built in China, and low and behold, we got another cable manufacturer with astronomical prices . Why is it so complicated for people to understand that MB will not share the information that "they" spent the time, money, and all the research to develop their product lines over the last 8 years. Is it just me that thinks this is strange that people are asking for their secrets?

We didn't take on the MB cable distribution because of what the tech was behind the cables, we took them on because of how much more detail, width and depth to the sound stage, well you read the thread and what owners are saying.

I don't care about the patents on the Shunyata cables either. Does a patent tell you how that cable sounds? Let me ask you this because I don't know the answer to this..... Did Shunyata come up with their own type of Teflon coating or application process? Do they have a patent for that? Do they hold a patent for the formulation of any of the materials used in their cables? Maybe they do, I don't really know. If they want to share that information that's great.

Anyway, I'm sorry but MB will not be revealing any of this information.

Leif, I very much doubt that too many people would care about how the product was designed...IF the web page had not gone into various scientific explanations and other misinformation and had simply said...designed with pixie dust and thus has the ability to make your system sound far better than it has ever done before. Instead, it would appear that the issue that most scientific minded folks have is that the science that was eluded to was most likely bogus and if not, the rest is now claimed to be 'propietary' ...and subject to patents that are not going to be disclosed. Do you see the problem that all this creates? lol. All IMHO

 

[JackD201]

Maybe you can borrow some from "Mr. King of the Ultra" lol

The Dude ain't got no spares. He just ordered more right? LOL

 

[JackD201]

Leif, I very much doubt that too many people would care about how the product was designed...IF the web page had not gone into various scientific explanations and other misinformation and had simply said...designed with pixie dust and thus has the ability to make your system sound far better than it has ever done before. Instead, it would appear that the issue that most scientific minded folks have is that the science that was eluded to was most likely bogus and if not, the rest is now claimed to be 'propietary' ...and subject to patents that are not going to be disclosed. Do you see the problem that all this creates, lol. All IMHO

Misinformation is a heavy accusation. Is that your intent?

 

[Leif S]

Leif, I very much doubt that too many people would care about how the product was designed...IF the web page had not gone into various scientific explanations and other misinformation and had simply said...designed with pixie dust and thus has the ability to make your system sound far better than it has ever done before. Instead, it would appear that the issue that most scientific minded folks have is that the science that was eluded to was most likely bogus and if not, the rest is now claimed to be 'propietary' ...and subject to patents that are not going to be disclosed. Do you see the problem that all this creates? lol. All IMHO

Hi DaveyF,

Not one person has proven any of MasterBuilts explanations are false. And I haven't seen anyone here who's scientific minds shown any credentials to their qualifications in this particular field to be claiming MasterBuikts claims is misinformation. They created that on their own. Do you see the problem that all this creates? MasterBuilt basically said prove them wrong.

Having a scientific mind vs. being an actual scientist that specializes in this field are two completely different things. Hell I have a scientific mind and it's way above my understanding lol.

Oh by the way...would you mind posting the patent for that Pixie dust???

 

[Whatmore]

Misinformation is a heavy accusation. Is that your intent?

Alternative facts ?

 

[Leif S]

The Dude ain't got no spares. He just ordered more right? LOL

Erm....maybe, maybe not lol.

Don't touch the cables dammit!!! OMG that made me laugh so hard.

 

[marty]

Hi Marty,

To be frank, and I say this with all due respect, I'm not concerned with the few people who have concerns about MasterBuilt. Not one dealer, or one distributor, or one owner has either.

I think it's common knowledge that the engineers for MB work in the aerospace industry and have contracts with the military. Do me a favor and this is for fun Let's see how many patents anybody can find from Lockheed Skunkworks for the A-12 that later became the SR-71 Blackbird. Or the guidance systems to the Mars Rover. Or the special coatings that go on the Stealth Fighter. Lockheed has so many patents. Do people think the public has access to them? I don't even know the real name of the materials used in the MasterBuilt cables lol. I don't know whats patented and whats not. I'm just the distributor. I don't care about their technology or patents. All I care about is what we hear when we use these cables. And even if I did know, I 100% most certainly wouldn't post it. I'm rather enjoying what these cables do compared to all the other cables we've used.

I know other manufacturers in this industry that literally stole someone else amplifier design, slapped it in a new chassis, threw a new brand name on it, and there you go, a new company product is born. And I've seen a cable company basically steal another companies designs, change the appearance and a couple other little things, have them built in China, and low and behold, we got another cable manufacturer with astronomical prices . Why is it so complicated for people to understand that MB will not share the information that "they" spent the time, money, and all the research to develop their product lines over the last 8 years. Is it just me that thinks this is strange that people are asking for their secrets?

We didn't take on the MB cable distribution because of what the tech was behind the cables, we took them on because of how much more detail, width and depth to the sound stage, well you read the thread and what owners are saying.

I don't care about the patents on the Shunyata cables either. Does a patent tell you how that cable sounds? Let me ask you this because I don't know the answer to this..... Did Shunyata come up with their own type of Teflon coating or application process? Do they have a patent for that? Do they hold a patent for the formulation of any of the materials used in their cables? Maybe they do, I don't really know. If they want to share that information that's great.

Anyway, I'm sorry but MB will not be revealing any of this information.

I appreciate your answer Leif. However, to be clear, I think there have been some incorrect statements regarding patents. As an author of over 25 patents, I can say with some certainty that generally, issued patents are searchable (subject to extraordinary secrecy provisions that apply to national security, etc.), and generally, patent applications are searchable 18 months after first filing (again, subject to secrecy provisions) although provisional filings don’t trigger the 18-month clock. My only interest in whether MB had patents around their technology for audio cables was self-education. I certainly had no interest in stealing trade secrets as I respect patent protection. So my conclusions from the entire discussion thus far is:

1) MB may have patents pertinent for aerospace industry but none that specifically are published for audio cables.
2) Regarding audio cables, they have proprietary technology they do not wish to divulge.
3) Regardless of #1 or #2, the only real relevance for audiophiles should be the sound of the cables first and foremost, and secondarily, the value proposition they represent.

I am entirely comfortable with this assessment. I do not know why it took 632 posts to say this, but hey, it sure was an entertaining read.

 

[PeterA]

I appreciate your answer Leif. However, to be clear, I think there have been some incorrect statements regarding patents. As an author of over 25 patents, I can say with some certainty that generally, issued patents are searchable (subject to extraordinary secrecy provisions that apply to national security, etc.), and generally, patent applications are searchable 18 months after first filing (again, subject to secrecy provisions) although provisional filings don’t trigger the 18-month clock. My only interest in whether MB had patents around their technology for audio cables was self-education. I certainly had no interest in stealing trade secrets as I respect patent protection. So my conclusions from the entire discussion thus far is:

1) MB may have patents pertinent for aerospace industry but none that specifically are published for audio cables.
2) Regarding audio cables, they have proprietary technology they do not wish to divulge.
3) Regardless of #1 or #2, the only real relevance for audiophiles should be the sound of the cables first and foremost, and secondarily, the value proposition they represent.

I am entirely comfortable with this assessment. I do not know why it took 632 posts to say this, but hey, it sure was an entertaining read.

I agree with your assessment, and I am also comfortable with it. I think it took 632 posts to sort this out because the thread went way off topic from Steve's original intent which was for owners to share listening impressions of their cables. Once it got derailed, it took a long time to straighten out. I'm not an owner, but I would like to hear these cables in a familiar system. That fact that various owners enjoy their cables is all I need to know to peak my interest. I wish MasterBuilt well in the launch of their cable business.

 

[jeff1225]

You say you don't know the technology or even terminology used. How would you then know what is or is not proven?

Let me quote language that you everyone understands:

"Based on our years of research and A/B/X blind testing, we’re confident MasterBuilt Audio Cables have less distortion and coloration than any other competing cable, at any price!"


You really going to with straight face back that years of ABX testing has gone on to develop these cables? I guarantee that is false. I will put forward $10,000 to your favorite charity to demonstrate otherwise.

On it being the lowest distortion and coloration cable at any price, I say the same thing. It is false. They could not have possibly tested every cable.

At any rate, making technical claims like this with no backing whatsoever is no different than stating incorrect things. Where are the checks and balances otherwise?

And all of this is in the "technology" section of the web site. And on the same page there is this picture:

We are supposed to think this is some kind of advanced machinery for making these cables. This is an obsolete (see CRT terminal) machine made by Marsilli for winding bobbins/coils. It is not for making cables. Here is their about page: http://www.marsilli.com/en/about-us-2

"Today, MARSILLI is a worldwide leader in Winding & Assembly Systems for coils and motors where precision, ?exibility and customization are mandatory."


Worst part of this is the masked men behind the technology. Fortunately I know the name of one technical person there: Nickolas Kue. I have searched high and low on the Internet and Patent office for any references to such a person and I can't find anything. Every engineer I know these days has a LinkedIn page but Nicholas is nowhere to be found there either. The interview where his name was mentioned was deleted too.

If these people are so proud of revolutionary products they have created why are they staying behind the curtain? Why do we have to deal with you when you don't understand anything they have said technically?

Did you/your company create the web page for them? If so, how can you not be accountable for what is said there? As you know legally you are accountable regardless under US law.

Anyway, as Marty said, just say these are the best sounding cables and we will be done. Yet you keep saying stuff like what I am responding to which continues this protracted argument.

I find it hilarious that you use the CRT as a demonstration that the machine is obsolete. It's obviously siting next to the machine and has nothing to do with the actual machine accept being connected to it via a cable. I work for a billion dollar multi-national food manufacturer, with brand new state of the art german machines...and we use old CRT's we have around for the interface.

 

[Steve Williams]

The fact is Amir doesn't have a clue and is in so far over his head that he is the one who he spreading the fluff

 

[Steve Williams]

I will say one last time to Amir. Unless you are an owner and have something to contribute about the sound of these cackles you are off topic. Do it again and I will delete your post and issue you your second warning

 

[Steve Williams]

Post deleted

 

[amirm]

I will say one last time to Amir. Unless you are an owner and have something to contribute about the sound of these cackles you are off topic. Do it again and I will delete your post and issue you your second warning

I am responding to a chain of comments you left standing including accusations toward me. If you like to delete my post of course you are very welcome. Nothing would please me more.

 

[Steve Williams]

There are no accusations other than you are off topic. it was you who once again is determined to take this thread off topic.