Measured Improvement or Non-measured Improvement?

[microstrip]

I don't understand the resistance to measurements. FR plot isn't perfect. Nobody claims measurements are always perfect. Measurements are always followed with listening.

My problem with measurements is mostly that they do not correlate with reported sound quality in high-end electronics.
What can you conclude about the sound quality of a power amplifier amplifier having a signal/noise ratio (ref. 1W into 8 ohms) of 72dB and 81 dB when A-weighted?

 

[microstrip]

Please don't get personal Mark. It is just a cable. Does not merit insulting other members over it.

As to your question, I have the equipment. And think have the qualifications to use them. What is it that you want me to do with them?

Amir,

We had some very interesting threads on cables by several cable experts, one of the most objective threads was lead by Gary Koh - as far as I remember he clearly addressed the R, L and C measurements in cables. The difficulty is not issuing measurements - many people, including me, could carry them easily and properly. The challenging part is interpreting the obtained values and understanding how the relationships between these values interact with the equipment they are connecting and how this affects subjective sound quality.

 

[mep]

Please don't get personal Mark. It is just a cable. Does not merit insulting other members over it.

As to your question, I have the equipment. And think have the qualifications to use them. What is it that you want me to do with them?

Amir-My comment wasn't aimed at one person in particular, rather it was aimed at all of those who say cables can't possibly make a difference. And I wasn't just thinking of power cables, but all cables we use in our systems. If you wanted to start with power cables, I think the beginning tests should include a dozen different power cables from different manufacturers of the same length and the same current rating. These cables should be connected to a variable load so that you can draw anywhere from .5A up to the rated value of the power cord. Measure the cable when it is under load in .5A increments and look for any changes in voltage and current in order to see if the cables are able to provide a stable 120v and their rated current up to their maximum rating.

If all the cables measure equally, then we can think of Part II testing.

 

[ar-t]

How many non-believers in cables have the skills and the test equipment necessary to make measurements that prove there are no electrical differences between different cables? Damn few. And if you claim such skills and claim you have the test equipment, please tell us what your qualifications are, the test gear used including brand and model number, and then give us your test procedure that you used to test the cables. If the answer to the above is that you are unwilling or unable to do that, it's time to clam up and quit running your mouth.

Really?

I probably have more test equipment, than everyone here combined, including all the other manufacturers, and I can tell you, with 100% certainty, there is no possible way to tell how a cable will sound, by any known metric. In fact, unless you do something incredibly stupid (which I see a lot of), I can only tell you that it will sound like pooh, but not exactly how it will sound like pooh.

So, please give us your qualifications.

Now.............are there any reliable metrics?

For interconnects: not really. Sure, you can measure the capacitance, and maybe conclude it will sound soft, if it has too much. Maybe. Without knowing the source impedance, as well as load capacitance and impedance, it is of little use.

For speaker cables: about the same. Sure, you can claim that a low-Z cable will more closely resemble the speaker impedance, but...............

That only works for transmission lines. Which only comes into to play at frequencies were the output Z of the amp is purely inductive, and the speaker no longer looks like anything you can easily describe. All that means is amps with a questionable phase margin will oscillate, and probably blow up.

Or that a really skinny one may have too much R, but then you have to take into account the series R of the coil in series with the woofer. So much for that idea.

What about digital (SPDIF) cables? Here is one time you can actually measure something. You can measure the characteristic impedance, and reliably conclude it will sound better than one that is the wrong impedance. But how exactly it will sound better (or worse, depending on how the comparison is being made), there is no way to tell.

In fact, I can show you how a digital cable is directional. Yes, it can be done. Which way will sound better? Hook it up and find out. Sorry, I am not Nostradamus.

Lastly, USB cables: I'll just say I have never run across, as a whole, a more baffling collection of cables in the last 40 years. Not only do they sound different (how much...............that is like beauty is in the eye's of the beholder), but you can not even say if the longer one will sound better, or worse, than a shorter one. With the same two pieces of gear, using a different brand may give the exact opposite result.

You can argue all that you want. You can challenge my opinions. You can brag about your experience. Fine. Just don't try to tell me that you can measure a cable and tell me how it will sound like.

And when you do......................explain to all of us why silver wires, especially silver-plated ones, sound bright as all get-out before they are................uh.............."broken in." Measure that one for us, why don't you?

Over and out..........before the trolls who follow me around pop up and insert their $0.02 of nothing.

 

[mep]

Um, Art, I don't know you and have no history with you that I'm aware of. I also didn't say that the basic measurements that I called for would indicate how a given cable would sound, it would just show whether they could deliver the current and voltage they are rated for. I have made no claims to being a EE and made no claims that I have made measurements of any type that would indicate why a cable will 'work' or why it would sound good or bad.

You on the other hand have made some claims about what test equipment you own ("more than everyone here combined, including all the other manufacturers") and by proxy your ability to use said equipment. Have you measured power cables and if so, what did you find?

 

[Bodhi]

I voted for non-measured improvement, and I see i'm in the minority. My time with Boulder, Vitus and Jorma has shown me the virtues of designing audio gear based on sound, rather than measurements yields much more musically realistic and natural sound. That is not say in some areas, specs don't matter. Bandwidth is one example. Though measurement count more in areas such as isolation and room acoustics, and on that front Hans Ole is happy to leave it to experts such as Stillpoints.

 

[amirm]

Amir, I enjoyed, learned from, and appreciated your efforts and what I know to be considerable time and personal expense on your part in regards to your study of the assorted cables undertaken as a result of that Monoprice thread over at AVS. Very few on either side of these repetitive debates ever take the time and effort to actually go beyond their keyboards and endeavor to do something constructive and reliable from which all of us mere mortals can actually learn something. Actual data, so simple as a concept, is almost always absent from these debates.

Thanks for the kind words Ron and good to hear from you. It is heartwarming to hear the work is appreciated.

 

[ack]

Thanks for the kind words Ron and good to hear from you. It is heartwarming to hear the work is appreciated.

Is there a link somewhere I missed? Your work is always educational and utterly fun to read.

 

[amirm]

Is there a link somewhere I missed? Your work is always educational and utterly fun to read.

Sure. Here you go: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?14134-When-12-Gauge-Wire-is-not-12-Gauge!

 

[ack]

Sure. Here you go: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?14134-When-12-Gauge-Wire-is-not-12-Gauge!

Thanks, I had read that; good work. I would love to see someone undertake advanced tests - considering that a cable is an LCR network - like phase measurements as a function of frequency, impulse-current delivery as a function of time, and noise attenuation on a 'scope. I have a feeling companies like MIT and Shunyata do all of this plus more, so probably a costly set of tests to ask...

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The question is not specific enough to ask.

1) If I get a new pair of speakers and I consider the audible differences between them and my old ones to be an improvement, do I need to see the measurements to confirm that I like them better? No, of course not.

2) If the manufacturer of a the Miracle DAC 3000 and a half dozen of his customers claim that it tightens bass, loosens mids, and deepens and widens sound stage, would I like to see measurements to support the claims? Yes, before I even bother to listen. Most of the above is easily measurable and those are some pretty expansive claims for a DAC. If he's not leaping at the opportunity to back them with measurements, that probably means they don't show up in measurements.

Tim

 

[MtnHam]

If he's not leaping at the opportunity to back them with measurements, that probably means they don't show up in measurements.

Tim

The ability to measure small incremental changes is an evolving science; many things we can measure and document today were not even thought about 10 years ago. Thus, the absurd position of the skeptic- "If it can't be measured, it doesn't exist." is revealed for it's stupidity.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The ability to measure small incremental changes is an evolving science; many things we can measure and document today were not even thought about 10 years ago. Thus, the absurd position of the skeptic- "If it can't be measured, it doesn't exist." is revealed for it's stupidity.

Re-read the post. I didn't suppose small incremental changes in the hypothetical I proposed. I did, however, suppose the kinds of sweeping transformational improvements often claimed and not supported with data. Though to be fair, more often than not the claims come from the users of the products than the designers.

Tim

 

[jkeny]

Re-read the post. I didn't suppose small incremental changes in the hypothetical I proposed. I did, however, suppose the kinds of sweeping transformational improvements often claimed and not supported with data. Though to be fair, more often than not the claims come from the users of the products than the designers.

Tim

Tim, do you really believe that a more solid sound stage (wider, deeper, more focussed) is easily measured? Exactly what in the measurements would you expect to see different from before to after the audible sweeping transformational improvement? In other words what variable & what level of change would validate the audibility, in your opinion?

 

[jkeny]

I'm of the opinion that many people assume there is a direct one to one relationship between what we hear & what can be measured - in other words if we hear a big change in the portrayal of the sound stage then it is represented by a similarly large change in the measurements. They therefore assume that because a measurement change isn't currently being revealed it is therefore not due to anything real in the waveform & is a placebo effect that is being reported in listening.

I believe that it is a lot more subtle & complex than this simple idea of a one to one relationship between cause & effect. In other words subtle changes in the waveform can have widespread psychoacoustic effects. Remember that we are dealing with an illusion - the illusion more or less works by giving the ear/brain mechanism enough psychoacoustic cues to allow us to believe that a good facsimile of the original performance is being portrayed through our two speakers. This illusion works best when all the psychoacoustic cues are stable & non-varying for the duration of the illusion - we can therefore immerse ourselves without disturbance in this illusion.

I'm of the opinion that small improvements can crucially change the stability of this illusion such as having a very low & stable noise floor. One which allows us to hear into the very subtle cues in the audio recording (presuming they are there) such as the naturally sounding sonic tails. Curtailing of these tails, for instance, makes the playback sound less life-like & more processed - we are more aware that we are listening to playback equipment - the illusion loses some of it's realism. One crucial factor is, I believe, is that a very low noise floor (possibly lower than we currently believe necessary) which is also very stable over time is necessary for the realism of the illusion. To measure a very low noise floor (while music is playing) which is stable & unvarying over time is a very difficult challenge, I believe & might explain why no current measurements exist for some of the audible improvements often reported by people.

It's easy to dismiss reports of tighter, more textured bass & more solid sound stage as just wishful thinking when no measurements are presented to back up what is being heard. But I would suggest that it is more interesting to consider that there might be something in the fact that these improvements are commonly reported & commonly reported in conjunction with one another - that there might be some correlation between the two - more stable, deeper soundstage & tighter textured bass.

So one of my points is that a more solid bass doesn't necessarily mean that we should be able to measure & see this improvement in bass by looking at the LF spectrum - it's more complex than that as it is with any complex systems - it's more like the concept of referred pain in the body rather than direct cause to direct affect

 

[JackD201]

The question is not specific enough to ask.

1) If I get a new pair of speakers and I consider the audible differences between them and my old ones to be an improvement, do I need to see the measurements to confirm that I like them better? No, of course not.

2) If the manufacturer of a the Miracle DAC 3000 and a half dozen of his customers claim that it tightens bass, loosens mids, and deepens and widens sound stage, would I like to see measurements to support the claims? Yes, before I even bother to listen. Most of the above is easily measurable and those are some pretty expansive claims for a DAC. If he's not leaping at the opportunity to back them with measurements, that probably means they don't show up in measurements.

Tim

Hmmmm. So you got a pair of speakers and said to yourself that you liked the improvements and need no measurements to kind of suggest to you WHY they might be better. No problem there.

BUT

When someone says he hears an improvement and likes it, you'd like that OTHER guy to back it up with numbers?

Are you sure it isn't the claim you are against but rather the "enthusiasm" with which they are described?

 

[jkeny]

Are you sure it isn't the claim you are against but rather the "enthusiasm" with which they are described?

LOL, I like your clear, logical thinking Jack
Maybe this a form of schadenfreude in reverse displayed by some - instead of delight in other peoples misfortune, they seem to resent other people's delight - we don't have to raid the German language for a term that describes this sentiment.

 

[microstrip]

(...) 2) If the manufacturer of a the Miracle DAC 3000 and a half dozen of his customers claim that it tightens bass, loosens mids, and deepens and widens sound stage, would I like to see measurements to support the claims? Yes, before I even bother to listen. Most of the above is easily measurable and those are some pretty expansive claims for a DAC. If he's not leaping at the opportunity to back them with measurements, that probably means they don't show up in measurements.

Tim

Tim,

Since you know which measurements are responsible for the subjective qualities you refer and now how to interpret them, can you explain us exactly what you would request and would look for? A practical example of a know DAC with these qualities and measurements would be welcome.

 

[rockitman]

wow, there is a measuring device for soundstage ? hmmmm.

 

[mep]

wow, there is a measuring device for soundstage ? hmmmm.

No, there are currently no criteria for measuring the output of software or hardware that will correlate to the soundstage information encoded on the source material or the gear used to play it back. Of course as we are often reminded, if you can hear it, you can measure it. Sometimes the people who loves them some measurements forget that somebody actually has to figure out how to measure it and make the correlation to what we hear. Nobody has done that yet with regards to soundstage to my knowledge and I wouldn't sit on a picket fence waiting for it to happen either.