Millennials, Please Check In!

[Simon Moon]

This problem (majority Boomers in the hobby) seems to be somewhat specific to the USA.

Whenever I watch videos of audiophile shows in Europe and Asia, there seems to be a lot more people walking around substantially younger than Boomes.

Also, there are quite a few audiophile YouTube providers that are substantially younger than Boomers. John Darko, New Record Day, Zero Fidelity, Thomas and Stereo, Joshua Valour, Z Reviews, Andrew Robinson, Joe & Tell, and quite a few others.

For sure, these guys tend to review audiophile equipment on the lower end of the scale, but that will be the source of future big dollar spending audiophiles.

 

[Folsom]

Yes, I think Ron’s goal is to get a better understanding of the demographic so he can help improve the site. I’m generally curious as to others’ responses as well. You chimed in early on and seem to be a regular poster here.

I'm certain I'm an inaccurate person to represent millennials. While I understand them probably better than Ron, I don't think my posting portrays what to expect from them. I have a nice tube headphone amplifier but it's in a closet... I think the reality is that millennials are mostly not at a place in their life where they can think about buying the type of stuff we discuss on here.

 

[the sound of Tao]

When I started as a young guy I also didn’t have the capacity to buy what the previous gen were buying. But it still was great to understand more from them and I felt no grief about what they had as I had yet to earn it. I grew into a better understanding of what was possible very much on the shoulders of the experience of those that had gone before.

Also not sure why we are focussing just on understanding millennials here (as much as I enjoy my many millennial mates) but I see i gen are perhaps where all our greater salvation as a species lies. It is current next gen that hold the all the hopes for our future. Given the state of things now I genuinely believe they will need all the great music and gear that they can get their hands on to help them keep it all together.

 

[stephen_volker]

I'm a millennial. A poll would have probably been a better tool for this. I absolutely agree with Folsom here.

 

[Folsom]

I think the internet has made the situation for us younger people slightly more difficult to get in. We don't usually get very good deals on gear or music. The internet basically keeps things at top dollar. I imagine more millennials would get into a bit of audio if the used market wasn't so to the max. I mean, think about it, young people are buying lots of super cheap new things because they're way cheaper than old used gear.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I think the internet has made the situation for us younger people slightly more difficult to get in. We don't usually get very good deals on gear or music. The internet basically keeps things at top dollar. I imagine more millennials would get into a bit of audio if the used market wasn't so to the max. I mean, think about it, young people are buying lots of super cheap new things because they're way cheaper than old used gear.

Definitely the price of top of the line gear has gone beyond astronomical... and well beyond affordability for most of us. But there is some genuinely fabulous gear at reasonable pricing. Also the opportunity for some fairly diverse affordable valve electronics... and there’s always diy speakers. But I’d thought international online buying has made things generally more competitive (to the point that it has made bricks and mortar stores more of a threatened species).

Plus there’s plenty of near Sota gear that will hold its performance and fall into the second hand market in the future... thinking extreme would be great.

My i gen nephew (who has a tt and is building a 60’s jazz collection on vinyl) has already put his hand up for my horns and the harbeths, the two set amps, my preamps and server and dac oh and my car... plus he’s the only one in the family who knows how valuable all my cables are and what a Triton and Typhon are... as well as all those shiny big stainless steel hockey pucks sitting under the rest of my gear are.

Think he’s going to be good and let his little sister have my headphones tho lol

 

[microstrip]

Definitely the price of top of the line gear has gone beyond astronomical... and well beyond affordability for most of us. But there is some genuinely fabulous gear at reasonable pricing. Also the opportunity for some fairly diverse affordable valve electronics... and there’s always diy speakers. But I’d thought international online buying has made things generally more competitive (to the point that it has made bricks and mortar stores more of a threatened species). (...)

Sometimes the best deals are close to us. Recently a dealer got in part exchange a Beard Audio P100 amplifier and I was around when it arrived in the shop. I immediately got it in my car - an extremely heavy dual mono amplifier with large dual C core Partrige output transformers and new KT 88 tubes for euro 800! All it will need are some new power capacitors and perhaps some better signal coupling capacitors. As is it sounds full bodied and powerful, perhaps lacking some air. I measured it and the transformers are top quality - low distortion, very extended bandwidth at power up to 90W ! I have read that perhaps the design was by Tim Paravicini, but could not confirm it.

 

[Folsom]

Definitely the price of top of the line gear has gone beyond astronomical... and well beyond affordability for most of us. But there is some genuinely fabulous gear at reasonable pricing. Also the opportunity for some fairly diverse affordable valve electronics... and there’s always diy speakers. But I’d thought international online buying has made things generally more competitive (to the point that it has made bricks and mortar stores more of a threatened species).

Plus there’s plenty of near Sota gear that will hold its performance and fall into the second hand market in the future... thinking extreme would be great.

My i gen nephew (who has a tt and is building a 60’s jazz collection on vinyl) has already put his hand up for my horns and the harbeths, the two set amps, my preamps and server and dac oh and my car... plus he’s the only one in the family who knows how valuable all my cables are and what a Triton and Typhon are... as well as all those shiny big stainless steel hockey pucks sitting under the rest of my gear are.

Think he’s going to be good and let his little sister have my headphones tho lol

Sometimes the best deals are close to us. Recently a dealer got in part exchange a Beard Audio P100 amplifier and I was around when it arrived in the shop. I immediately got it in my car - an extremely heavy dual mono amplifier with large dual C core Partrige output transformers and new KT 88 tubes for euro 800! All it will need are some new power capacitors and perhaps some better signal coupling capacitors. As is it sounds full bodied and powerful, perhaps lacking some air. I measured it and the transformers are top quality - low distortion, very extended bandwidth at power up to 90W ! I have read that perhaps the design was by Tim Paravicini, but could not confirm it.

See, that's the thing... 800 euro is way too high of a buy in for most millennial to start down a path where they'd spend that or more. When you could pick up a tube receiver for $150 and pay someone $150 to recap it or whatever, then you were in business buying some also cheap speakers and turntable. I'm not talking about junk stuff, I mean ok starter stuff. But that doesn't happen much anymore. Even going to second hand shops to score a deal if you're a poor college kid is tough because everyone can check eBay on their phone. My point being the gateways in are more difficult since people have apprehensions about spending any money at all. Even some people I know with plenty of cash won't spend any on audio because the buy in for something actually appealing isn't very low.

 

[DSkip]

Up until about five years ago I used to flip gear from Craigslist and did well at it. I got my ears on a ton of gear, kept some it that really impressed me, and sold the rest to funnel back into buying more stuff. Eventually I had saved enough through flipping, birthdays, Christmas, and poker winnings to make my first ‘big’ purchase - a Shuguang preamp with 845 monoblocks from Grant Fidelity. They were on sale and I got them for about $2000 shipped from Canada. I still have them to this day.

Occasionally deals still come up but they are few and far between. Around the time I became a dealer I noticed the drop off in attractively priced gear and still don’t see too many come up like they used to.

I still try to offer products at great values but it becomes increasingly difficult to produce good gear at low prices that someone can actually grow with in this hobby. That is my main concern with working with millennials - the assets that will retain value and allow one to keep growing in this hobby. Too many go and buy big box brands because it’s what they know, just to lose 70-80% of that money when the time comes to resell. Factor in the ignorance and it becomes a revolving door of mediocrity.

 

[microstrip]

See, that's the thing... 800 euro is way too high of a buy in for most millennial to start down a path where they'd spend that or more. When you could pick up a tube receiver for $150 and pay someone $150 to recap it or whatever, then you were in business buying some also cheap speakers and turntable. I'm not talking about junk stuff, I mean ok starter stuff. But that doesn't happen much anymore. Even going to second hand shops to score a deal if you're a poor college kid is tough because everyone can check eBay on their phone. My point being the gateways in are more difficult since people have apprehensions about spending any money at all. Even some people I know with plenty of cash won't spend any on audio because the buy in for something actually appealing isn't very low.

Surely 800 euros is not cents, but I think that unless we are lucky a vintage tube receiver can be a source of problems. Tubes sockets and switches can be oxidized beyond possible recovery and I doubt that the young generation will be ready to accept mono. Just for curiosity, what tube receiver would you consider? A quick look at eBay found that stereo ones of known brands are being sold at speculative collector prices!

 

[the sound of Tao]

See, that's the thing... 800 euro is way too high of a buy in for most millennial to start down a path where they'd spend that or more. When you could pick up a tube receiver for $150 and pay someone $150 to recap it or whatever, then you were in business buying some also cheap speakers and turntable. I'm not talking about junk stuff, I mean ok starter stuff. But that doesn't happen much anymore. Even going to second hand shops to score a deal if you're a poor college kid is tough because everyone can check eBay on their phone. My point being the gateways in are more difficult since people have apprehensions about spending any money at all. Even some people I know with plenty of cash won't spend any on audio because the buy in for something actually appealing isn't very low.

But perhaps that is simply where it comes down to a basic shift in values and if the next generations don’t see sufficient value in a amp like Micro just mentioned that still costs less than a half decent laptop then no amount of social engineering to attract significant numbers of younger souls to this pursuit is going to help.

There is plenty of money around today for mobile electronics and new cars and all gens seem to thankfully still own plenty of good things if not everything.

Right from when I started and up to this day I choose to own a less expensive car to help justify (as well as make possible) that I can buy better gear to make for more music enjoyment. I like that choice because it also reflects my individual values. This hobby will always ask us to sacrifice a bit but return on investment is high for us (whether we just love music or gear or both).

But it is possible now to access affordably more great music than ever so that for me is the best part of the way forward.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I'm a little confused by this. People here say the mkt to sell gear is dead ie Audiogon is more Audio-goner. Yet Millenial and Gen X and Z buyers can't find/afford nice pieces to buy.

Are the youngsters not interested in the stuff we're trying to sell? Or can they not afford the prices we want? And if it's the latter, is that because we're too greedy, or they're too poor?

 

[the sound of Tao]

I'm a little confused by this. People here say the mkt to sell gear is dead ie Audiogon is more Audio-goner. Yet Millenial and Gen X and Z buyers can't find/afford nice pieces to buy.

Are the youngsters not interested in the stuff we're trying to sell? Or can they not afford the prices we want? And if it's the latter, is that because we're too greedy, or they're too poor?

While I’d not suggest this is any specific gen issue but I fear we have rather set up an expectation that only top of the line is good enough. This is an issue of a sport with perhaps an increasing mind set on a perfectionism driven by increasingly less affordable state of the art.

Forum exposure does help feed the constant intensity of the high end frenzy. Reading about the dizzy and marvellous top end in a magazine is a bit more objectively distanced than the more immediate and constant desire created when reading your peers stories of new acquisitions and being absolutely nirvanified by all this fabulous stuff.

 

[Folsom]

Surely 800 euros is not cents, but I think that unless we are lucky a vintage tube receiver can be a source of problems. Tubes sockets and switches can be oxidized beyond possible recovery and I doubt that the young generation will be ready to accept mono. Just for curiosity, what tube receiver would you consider? A quick look at eBay found that stereo ones of known brands are being sold at speculative collector prices!

Well the ones I would choose are very select at this point. But for a beginner there really is very few tube receivers that outright suck - a few pioneers for example. A mediocre Marantz still is vastly more pleasurable than powered JBL desktop monitors.

The only thing typically hard to replace on any old tube gear is the output transformer. If it got cooked by DC then that’s trouble. New ones cost a lot if you can get the same thing. Power transformers usually stay good or are easily replaceable. You may not be able to keep one 100% original but you can still easily land 95% of the original sound by restoring without goody exotic or poorly chosen parts. There’s a good number of guys who do it for $.

And eBay, hence you notice the issue. Everyone of those could have been a local sale somewhere when you were young. People use to take pity on the young, make them pay enough to feel it but not make it impossible - at least that is the feeling I recall before eBay.

 

[Folsom]

Up until about five years ago I used to flip gear from Craigslist and did well at it. I got my ears on a ton of gear, kept some it that really impressed me, and sold the rest to funnel back into buying more stuff. Eventually I had saved enough through flipping, birthdays, Christmas, and poker winnings to make my first ‘big’ purchase - a Shuguang preamp with 845 monoblocks from Grant Fidelity. They were on sale and I got them for about $2000 shipped from Canada. I still have them to this day.

Occasionally deals still come up but they are few and far between. Around the time I became a dealer I noticed the drop off in attractively priced gear and still don’t see too many come up like they used to.

I still try to offer products at great values but it becomes increasingly difficult to produce good gear at low prices that someone can actually grow with in this hobby. That is my main concern with working with millennials - the assets that will retain value and allow one to keep growing in this hobby. Too many go and buy big box brands because it’s what they know, just to lose 70-80% of that money when the time comes to resell. Factor in the ignorance and it becomes a revolving door of mediocrity.

Nice. Do you live somewhere with regular gear popping up? A lot of places are wastelands for gear and records. And as you say, things change.

Excellent point about buying the new stuff that retains no value!

As someone who does some industry work, I can say it’s very hard to provide anything cheap. In fact besides DIY I don’t even want to try.

 

[Folsom]

And if it's the latter, is that because we're too greedy, or they're too poor?

Both.

Ironically the best “deals” are on things that still cost as much as a new car.

 

[asiufy]

I think the internet has made the situation for us younger people slightly more difficult to get in. We don't usually get very good deals on gear or music. The internet basically keeps things at top dollar. I imagine more millennials would get into a bit of audio if the used market wasn't so to the max. I mean, think about it, young people are buying lots of super cheap new things because they're way cheaper than old used gear.

That's very... millenial of you C'mon... Was it ever possible to purchase GOOD stuff for $150? That's $17 in 1960 dollars or $22 in 1970 dollars, BTW.
$5 for coffee is OK, proper audio gear for 800 euros, no no, too much.
I see it often in the store. $30 new LPs from their favorite "artist" is fine, $250 for a turntable that's not a toy, too much.

 

[Folsom]

I’m not saying my generation’s logic is sound, but if you want to understand it then I’m sorry but you have to suck it down as it is... Arguing is pointless, really. I have no idea why people want to counter what I am saying, it doesn’t help.

And actually when eBay started highly desirable receivers were selling for that. You can find old internet articles sighting the value.

 

[DSkip]

Nice. Do you live somewhere with regular gear popping up? A lot of places are wastelands for gear and records. And as you say, things change.

Excellent point about buying the new stuff that retains no value!

As someone who does some industry work, I can say it’s very hard to provide anything cheap. In fact besides DIY I don’t even want to try.

I live in the Dallas area. I still have friends who do flipping but it’s few and far between even for them. To your point, people are used to researching a product to learn value vs. just trying to move gear now.

That's very... millenial of you C'mon... Was it ever possible to purchase GOOD stuff for $150? That's $17 in 1960 dollars or $22 in 1970 dollars, BTW.
$5 for coffee is OK, proper audio gear for 800 euros, no no, too much.
I see it often in the store. $30 new LPs from their favorite "artist" is fine, $250 for a turntable that's not a toy, too much.

The thread was about attracting millennials, not judging them. Offer systems at prices that they can afford without changing a lifestyle and it opens the door.

 

[asiufy]

Skip,

That was my whole point. I do offer $250 turntables, $250 speakers and $500 amps, all new with support and warranty. But that isn't enough, as they seem to want the impossible, like the proverbial $150 mentioned above.
Different values and different priorities, that's what it is.
I've had a couple audition a bunch of speakers in the store, only to buy the ELACs that he liked... from an online store! *right in front of me*! Again, different values.
We need more people in the hobby, period. Gen X, Y, Z, A, B, C, doesn't matter one bit, as long as they have their priorities and values straight.