More Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?

[bryans]

If I have not heard a piece, it is new to me. Based on RIAA data, "the years 1973 through 2018 saw nearly $29 billion in new vinyl sales." There is plenty of new music to be discovered and I don't need streaming to do that.

I must admit when I first read this it reminded me of my dad saying 8-Track is where it's at.

Can someone find new music in a record store, sure they can. We did this for years. But technology has progressed to the point where it has given us options. Streaming makes it more convenient (way more convenient)!

Nothing wrong with you still utilizing vinyl to find new music.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hi, new member here on whatsbest. English isn't my native language so forgive a spelling Error.

For me the last year was when i got really interested in streaming, before that for my personal taste the quality wasn't near my cd oriënted system. Now sold my cd players, had a Classe CDP-202 and a Audionet ART V2. Exploring my Aurender acs100 with a 19v upgrade external linear power and Ansuz A2 cabling. All feeding the data to my Luxman DA-250 dac and connected to a Gato Audio Dia400s nmp. Speakers are Usher audio mini dancer 2 diamond, 2e version. XLR and speakercabel both Ansuz A2. All A2 except the powercord feeding the mainz box, a C edition.

Streaming from Qobuz is not on the same level as playing ripped cd's from the internal ssd drives, one for storage and one dedicated for memory player.
So far upgraded my switch, also 12v linear power feeding it, have a Yeti lan cable custummade.

So before this had a good cd player feeding the dac but now with streaming the total cost gets way higher. Needing a audiophile switch and powersupply (also router side) and long run of real good lan cabling.

I'm really enthousistic on streaming combined with playing from the ssd storage of my Aurender. In my idea streaming can be as good as playing from cd but the cost of it all is really higher to achieve the same level.

You're ideas are welcome.

Welkom to WBF, kees! Hoe gaat het?

Mijn vrouw komt uit Den Haag!

 

[DMcVey]

It's not an 'obvious point', it's a silly question because the idea that anyone is "supposed to" listen to anything makes no sense. If you want to use the locution "not suppose to" you likewise embrace "supposed to". "You are listening to the wrong music" -- how far does that get you? You can have your opinion, others have their's.

What you are trying to imply is that "Streaming gives me access to new music and I like that." Or some such. Why not just say that? As a defense, however, it does not address the sound quality topic.

I find that music recorded in the heyday of big orchestras, say 1960 thru 1985-90 is better performed, better recorded and more interesting than most "new music." That's my opinion. It covers roughly 600 years of music making. There is plenty of it recorded and available on vinyl and compact disc. If I have not heard a piece, it is new to me. Based on RIAA data, "the years 1973 through 2018 saw nearly $29 billion in new vinyl sales." There is plenty of new music to be discovered and I don't need streaming to do that. If you do, that's fine by me.

Wow...everyone seems really aggressive on this forum, I'm new here but I'll stiffen up my spine and see if I can participate at this level. The majority of the people here also seem to be boomers, and are happy listening to their legacy record collections from the 1980's. Quite simply put, this might just be in the wrong place for an audiophile in their 30's.

"the years 1973 through 2018 saw nearly $29 billion in new vinyl sales." This is of course a misleading statement. New vinyl doesn't mean new artists, it just means newly pressed. Go onto Elusive Disk or Music Direct and 90% of the "new records" are reissues of analog recordings from the 50's - 80's.

If you want to listen to new artists, you need to have a competent streaming system. All of this music is recorded on digital anyway.

 

[DMcVey]

Really?

I still find plenty of new release music on vinyl to the point there is too many excellent albums to buy and not enough time and $$ to keep buying them.

But your musical likes need to go past classical and jazz lite to appreciate a lot of new music - sort of opening your mind and soul.

Streaming is good to listen to new albums before I decide or not to buy them. Modern alternative radio stations are also great for new music as well.

Currently spinning Maya Jane Coles, a uk singer songwriter, producer that specialises in trip hop and downtempo electronic - amazingly good and sounds wonderful on vinyl.

View attachment 102838

Her first album was released 11 years ago. More established artists like this do seem to be able to convince their labels to release records. Cool album cover and thank you for sharing.

 

[bryans]

Quite simply put, this might just be in the wrong place for an audiophile in their 30's.

The sad part is people in their 30's like you are the ones we need to attract.

 

[KeesNL]

Welkom to WBF, kees! Hoe gaat het?

Mijn vrouw komt uit Den Haag!

Thanks for the welcome Ron, also compliment on your Dutch.

Live south of Rotterdam, near Zeeland.

 

[Blackmorec]

As I said on Ron’s thread, everything sucks here.

Everything bar the dummy you just spat out

I’m really sorry but I just couldn’t resist

 

[Elliot G.]

I never understand why all of these threads have to be all or nothing. If you listen to records, great. Listen to CD's , great. I personally think that streaming is the best thing that ever happened to the audio buisiness.
Why?
well its really easy. It requires no purchases for software other than a small monthly fee.
Allows access to millions and millions of pieces of music
Abilty to try different resolutions and formats
and for me exposure and finding new and different music than I have not known before or just forgot about.
THis is still an infant format and like the record or the Cd did it will improve over time.

BTW all streaming as all components and systems are NOT equal.
I have heard many devices and they differ greatly LOL what a surprise. As all high end is not the same all streaming is not the same either.

Do I consider it High End?
Absolutely and listen to it all the time, demonstrate with it all the shows and in my showroom.
I am enjoying listening to my vast library of music since thats why I have all of this gear to begin with. I dont enjoy my sytem any less streaming than I did listening to records or CDs.
I made the choice and I live with it.

 

[Rensselaer]

In regards undercurrents of hostility ... when I started on this forum I admittedly was "thinned-skin", but now can take heaps of abuse and it is like water off a ducks back, I have benefited from it.

In regards to the anti-analogue statement that people listen to vinyl with all the noise, clicks and pops, and then nostalgia or repetition or other makes them prefer music playback that has such ... what a load of twaddle. Lovers of analogue-recorded-to-vinyl put up with the noise, clicks and pops, because we learned to block it out in order to enjoy the rest from the absolute finest form of music playback available at any price.

What is nice about investing in an analogue vinyl playback rig is that better quality equipment often brings out more detail from vinyl records. We love that we bought and took great care of our vinyl records that we paid a couple of bucks for in the 60's, and 70's as they keep surprising us with new, previously unheard musical details every time we upgrade the hardware. Can you claim the same with CD's?

But, we are all different. Some "audiophile's" love and collect audio equipment. Carlos uses high end mastering equipment to "master" already mastered digital music so that it sounds the way he likes it to sound. Like an expensive graphic equaliser, he attenuates some, augments other, shifts frequency of a limited source. Nothing new, just different, but hey ho, that is what he likes.

Some audiophile's appreciate streaming new music off their laptop through headphones while they work. Great! Unlike radio one doesn't have to listen to a DJ waffle on, or listen to music that one doesn't like. You can choose a theme, if not the actual songs, and sometimes your favourite songs are actually a cover version sung by some unknown hopeful being paid by the station (studio musician) rate or worse, a penny for every 1000 times it is played. A variant of this, someone else listening to streaming through a very expensive home listening system that seems to isolate every instrument in hyper-etched reality, with bass slam and shimmering highs to the limits of human hearing.They appreciate that they do not have clicks and pops, or have to get up and turn over a record every 20 minutes, or every 3 minutes if all they wanted to hear was one song from that artist. No records to clean, to store, and ... did I mention the bass slam?

And some audiophile's listen to analogue from tape or appropriately-sourced vinyl because it is relaxing, no listener fatigue, tone and timbre are quite real and sometimes (with very good recordings) one can suspend their disbelief and sense the group right there, live in the room with you. But, 20 minutes or so later, titch, titch, titch time to put down the Scotch, get up out of your chair, go over and lift the tonearm and move it out of the way, turn off the motor, when the platter stops lift the record off and turn it over, replace it on the platter, turn the motor on again, use your special lint brush again to clean off any dust which may have landed, bring the cartridge over the leading edge and lower it gently, and gently step back so as not to cause the cartridge to bounce and return to your seat and Scotch, put your head back, close your eyes and enjoy side two.

 

[facten]

What is nice about investing in an analogue vinyl playback rig is that better quality equipment often brings out more detail from vinyl records. We love that we bought and took great care of our vinyl records that we paid a couple of bucks for in the 60's, and 70's as they keep surprising us with new, previously unheard musical details every time we upgrade the hardware. Can you claim the same with CD's?

I don't question your statement about your experience with analog, but I will "claim" that you can realize/experience unheard detail from improvements from CD playback hardware upgrades. Having invested in better standalone transports & DACs, as well as a standalone player such as the Neodio Origine S2, along with better associated cabling the improvements are quite noticeable. Likewise, folks who stream and have invested in related equipment and the time to understand how to maximize the implementation have realized the same. Degrees of improvement in any of this depend upon any number of variables, but no format is left out of the ability to realize them.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Wow...everyone seems really aggressive on this forum, I'm new here but I'll stiffen up my spine and see if I can participate at this level. The majority of the people here also seem to be boomers, and are happy listening to their legacy record collections from the 1980's. Quite simply put, this might just be in the wrong place for an audiophile in their 30's.

"the years 1973 through 2018 saw nearly $29 billion in new vinyl sales." This is of course a misleading statement. New vinyl doesn't mean new artists, it just means newly pressed. Go onto Elusive Disk or Music Direct and 90% of the "new records" are reissues of analog recordings from the 50's - 80's.

If you want to listen to new artists, you need to have a competent streaming system. All of this music is recorded on digital anyway.

Some people on this site are always moaning even if its vinyl .
Its not the format
When i recorded Stevie ray vaughan on FM acoustics at the hifideluxe show in munich some were like how can you judge a system.on such music .
Were talking about one of the best guitarists who ever lived.
Go figure.

 

[rando]

Wow...everyone seems really aggressive on this forum, I'm new here but I'll stiffen up my spine and see if I can participate at this level.

I will detour through the oft bandied expression that ___ is so [aggressive] because so little is at stake. There are a lot of components at work with a long history of association within the high end. Overt focus on intellectualized bickering disfavors awareness a richness of underlying experience and keen minds. (Then there is the fact you entered a nonsense inflammatory discussion every forum must endure.)

Accounting for the well established fact, well from which fresh audiophile waters spring has often produced mere glassfuls in recent decades. There isn't an easily graded road for 30 somethings. Every obstacle in place lies there for the exact reason it needs to be negotiated enroute to the high end. Use for the training roads to learn how to take a particular complex curve or isolate any another particle in the road book faltered.

Everything matters! It all needs to work even when the part it plays isn't clear or possible.

The majority of the people here also seem to be boomers, and are happy listening to their legacy record collections from the 1980's. Quite simply put, this might just be in the wrong place for an audiophile in their 30's.

80's analog is by no means a recognized high point in vinyl.

WBF might very well be the place for an exceptional audiophile in their 30's who mulls over search results. Socially, using the derogative term boomer reapplies the concept of younger interests being buried in too much noise.

"the years 1973 through 2018 saw nearly $29 billion in new vinyl sales." This is of course a misleading statement. New vinyl doesn't mean new artists, it just means newly pressed. Go onto Elusive Disk or Music Direct and 90% of the "new records" are reissues of analog recordings from the 50's - 80's.

If you want to listen to new artists, you need to have a competent streaming system. All of this music is recorded on digital anyway.

Digital and streaming.

Please consider this site is not explicitly concerned in mass appreciation of music on low end consumer devices. Streaming is being maligned under this premise to rankle those who are actively seeking to improve a nascent high end equipment chain (with historical precedence existing in both analog and digital for longstanding formats arising directly beyond efforts at listening to a metallic foil). On a site where by far the most high profile discussion is directly related to developments in the dual server/streamer category.

Treading away from answering to someone poised on a defensive foot. The difference you may not be fully appreciating is Tay-Tay sells vinyl. A lot of mainstream artists are irrevocably tied to sales of their catalog or other professional contributions through past, present, and future platforms. Examine what yesterday has to offer, enjoy today, don't reach for tomorrow before it exists unless you are prepared for what that entails.

Largess of high end audiophile interest gets placed within works and artistry given a higher level of attention. This opens the door for analog and digital being recorded simultaneously. A not uncommon decision in the smaller interest pools audiophile interests gravitate towards. Even the budding ones yet to attain recognition their robust studies are being daily compounded with practical experimentation... by the audience found on BC or some other outlet to the world.

 

[microstrip]

Wow...everyone seems really aggressive on this forum, I'm new here but I'll stiffen up my spine and see if I can participate at this level. The majority of the people here also seem to be boomers, and are happy listening to their legacy record collections from the 1980's. Quite simply put, this might just be in the wrong place for an audiophile in their 30's.

I was in that position in the 90's. But I evolved. Must say that WBF also played a positive aspect in this evolution - this forum was not born yesterday. Please read and contribute, and also use advanced google to access our old threads, a lot to learn from our discussions at that time. Don't give up, we will not give up on you.

"the years 1973 through 2018 saw nearly $29 billion in new vinyl sales." This is of course a misleading statement. New vinyl doesn't mean new artists, it just means newly pressed. Go onto Elusive Disk or Music Direct and 90% of the "new records" are reissues of analog recordings from the 50's - 80's.

If you want to listen to new artists, you need to have a competent streaming system. All of this music is recorded on digital anyway.

As you say.

 

[Rensselaer]

I don't question your statement about your experience with analog, but I will "claim" that you can realize/experience unheard detail from improvements from CD playback hardware upgrades. Having invested in better standalone transports & DACs, as well as a standalone player such as the Neodio Origine S2, along with better associated cabling the improvements are quite noticeable. Likewise, folks who stream and have invested in related equipment and the time to understand how to maximize the implementation have realized the same. Degrees of improvement in any of this depend upon any number of variables, but no format is left out of the ability to realize them.

21 minutes after I posted, pretty quick.

I didn’t say you couldn’t get improvement in CD player performance by upgrading cables, getting a DAC with less jitter, putting green marker colour around the edge of your CD’s and placing magic rocks on top of your components (all of these have all been enthusiastically advocated). I also agree that upgrades in DACs have allowed digital music to be recorded without the brick-wall filters needed in the early days to prevent ultra-high distortion associated with the medium back then, and may now actually give some of the psychoacoustic experience that analogue gives, but I do not agree that you can recover data with more expensive CD players that other modern CD players can’t.

When recording while an orchestra is in full bloom, there are literally billions of different tones, fundamental and harmonics, at different volumes, reaching the microphones at once. With D2D recordings that conglomerate of waves are being planted into the grooves in-total as fast as the physical limits of the cutting needle driven by electricity, traveling at the speed of light, will allow.

With CD, 16-bits (off and on switches) have a total of 64,560 different values. Do you believe that enough to capture all those billions of sounds reaching the microphone? If so, why did the industry upgrade to 20-bit bytes?

The analogue D2D is recording nearly everything continuously as presented to the mike, whereas with CD, what the limited 16-bit bytes can capture is recorded, not continuously, but in freeze-frame snapshots at 44.1 thousand bytes/second. Quick enough to give the illusion of continuous, but isn’t.

Some improvements in analogue equipment (pickups, linear tracking tonearms, different diamond shapes riding at different depths in the grooves) do not just improve the sound quality of playback, but often times can pull information from the grooves of old records that was never heard before from the same LP’s when played on good, but lesser systems. All the information in a CD is available to all CD players. Although one can improve the sound coming from one’s CD’s, you can’t squeeze blood from a turnip.

 

[wil]

A variant of this, someone else listening to streaming through a very expensive home listening system that seems to isolate every instrument in hyper-etched reality, with bass slam and shimmering highs to the limits of human hearing.

The above cartoonish description perfectly illustrates a biased and condescending attitude toward how many people here listen to music.

If you're wondering why there are "undercurrents of hostility", well... look no further!

And, btw, I view any "anti-analog statements" in the same light. It's kind of ridiculous.

 

[Rensselaer]

The above cartoonish description perfectly illustrates a biased and condescending attitude toward how many people here listen to music.

If you're wondering why there are "undercurrents of hostility", well... look no further!

And, btw, I view any "anti-analog statements" in the same light. It's kind of ridiculous.

Sorry about my “cartoonish” descriptions, I obviously think in cartoons. We all can’t be brilliant.

 

[wil]

Sorry about my “cartoonish” descriptions, I obviously think in cartoons. We all can’t be brilliant.

And a nice job completely ignoring the content of my posting..

 

[microstrip]

In regards undercurrents of hostility ... when I started on this forum I admittedly was "thinned-skin", but now can take heaps of abuse and it is like water off a ducks back, I have benefited from it.

As long as it is centered on audio subjects, no problem. But I am much less happy when people try to turn audio debates in the field of personnel insults and personnel fights.

In regards to the anti-analogue statement that people listen to vinyl with all the noise, clicks and pops, and then nostalgia or repetition or other makes them prefer music playback that has such ... what a load of twaddle. Lovers of analogue-recorded-to-vinyl put up with the noise, clicks and pops, because we learned to block it out in order to enjoy the rest from the absolute finest form of music playback available at any price.

Please keep the arguments separate - do not mix them. Most of us have maturity enough to know that a proficient vinyl based audiophile can have a system that has no noise, clicks and pops. But we also know that most vinyl users have a poor aligned cartridge and plenty of clicks and pops. Just read the strong opinions of our vinyl experts about the performance of vinyl systems in shows and shops, or even on M. Fremer 82º SRA ...

The comment on nostalgia and repetition stands, however.

What is nice about investing in an analogue vinyl playback rig is that better quality equipment often brings out more detail from vinyl records. We love that we bought and took great care of our vinyl records that we paid a couple of bucks for in the 60's, and 70's as they keep surprising us with new, previously unheard musical details every time we upgrade the hardware. Can you claim the same with CD's?

Yes we can claim it. IMHO even more with digital than with vinyl. But we benefit form a quality high resolution system to get all the information the system can supply in an enjoyable way.

But, we are all different. Some "audiophile's" love and collect audio equipment. Carlos uses high end mastering equipment to "master" already mastered digital music so that it sounds the way he likes it to sound. Like an expensive graphic equaliser, he attenuates some, augments other, shifts frequency of a limited source. Nothing new, just different, but hey ho, that is what he likes.

Carlos does a lot more than that if I remember well. You are downsizing his work - I hope he can come to defend himself . And yes, as a consequence now digital becomes a "limited source".

Some audiophile's appreciate streaming new music off their laptop through headphones while they work. Great! Unlike radio one doesn't have to listen to a DJ waffle on, or listen to music that one doesn't like. You can choose a theme, if not the actual songs, and sometimes your favourite songs are actually a cover version sung by some unknown hopeful being paid by the station (studio musician) rate or worse, a penny for every 1000 times it is played. A variant of this, someone else listening to streaming through a very expensive home listening system that seems to isolate every instrument in hyper-etched reality, with bass slam and shimmering highs to the limits of human hearing.They appreciate that they do not have clicks and pops, or have to get up and turn over a record every 20 minutes, or every 3 minutes if all they wanted to hear was one song from that artist. No records to clean, to store, and ... did I mention the bass slam?

First connecting streaming with headphone listening to prepare the battle field. No one here is addressing headphones. Next a bitter view of a poor quality stereo sound. Not new., we can find tens of similar narratives in analogue when audiophiles compare tubes with solid state.

And some audiophile's listen to analogue from tape or appropriately-sourced vinyl because it is relaxing, no listener fatigue, tone and timbre are quite real and sometimes (with very good recordings) one can suspend their disbelief and sense the group right there, live in the room with you. But, 20 minutes or so later, titch, titch, titch time to put down the Scotch, get up out of your chair, go over and lift the tonearm and move it out of the way, turn off the motor, when the platter stops lift the record off and turn it over, replace it on the platter, turn the motor on again, use your special lint brush again to clean off any dust which may have landed, bring the cartridge over the leading edge and lower it gently, and gently step back so as not to cause the cartridge to bounce and return to your seat and Scotch, put your head back, close your eyes and enjoy side two.

Should we assume they also listen with headphones? It seems not ...

 

[facten]

21 minutes after I posted, pretty quick

Save the snark for someone else or let me know what the perfect timeline is to respond to you and I'll make sure that I bend down and adhere to that.

 

[XV-1]

Her first album was released 11 years ago. More established artists like this do seem to be able to convince their labels to release records. Cool album cover and thank you for sharing.

If you want to share your varied musical tastes, yes WBF might be the wrong forum as most here are into the gear and as you say, their back catalogue.

But not all. The 80's was where I spent my youth but I continue to buy new release music as new music keeps me alive and happy.

But there are members here who are very knowledgeable on high end streaming so knowledgeable can be gained.

Do you have a turntable or do you stream mostly? What music do you listen to?

Spinning the new album from local band Crooked Colours is excellent. It can be bought from their labels store - Sweat It Out records.