More Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?

[audiobomber]

I don't think Paul McGowan is terribly credible when he discusses computer audio. In one video I watched, he said an ethernet switch can't affect audio quality. AFAIK, he uses a Mac laptop instead of a dedicated streamer. I don't know if his claim of compression in streaming is a fact, but something appears to be compromised, according to just about every post I've read on this topic, across three audio sites.

In my system, Amazon Unlimited hi-res files didn't sound as good as CD's ripped to my NAS. In a friend's much more expensive system, 16/44 Tidal files sound messy compared to a ripped CD stored in his K50. I assume this is largely because in both cases internet files go through the internet provider's modem and a consumer grade router with upgraded PSU, but maybe more to it than that?

PS I thought this thread would be about the sound quality of music streamed from the internet, not about what music one chooses. That is a totally different topic.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I would say, even if he is listening to the same source recording.... but that leads me to this question.....but how do we know exactly if it's the same version/recording/release? It's not like Tidal or Qobuz have verifiable SKU numbers by the sides of the albums we listen too when streaming. We have some information but not 100% verifiable information to know that is the same exact version.

we can never know. but what we can do is listen and try to find the closest to the native format. i've listened to enough digital where i did know the native format, to know that is almost always the best one to hear. if it's a tape transfer, what format was it originally transferred to? it's why i prefer Quboz to Tidal with MQA.

I simply enjoy each for what they have to offer and listen to the best recording/version/playback mechanism available to me at that given time.

agree.

I don't care if any "consensus" or empirical data suggests that streaming is an inferior format for high end.

great recordings in native formats sound wonderful streaming. all streaming is not created equal. not to say less than perfect streaming is bad, it's just not as great.

To some, vinyl is an inferior high end format.

more things to go wrong with vinyl. but since it's less messed with than digital, when right it's better.

I do not in any way agree with that but on the same token, I don't agree with Paul and the others whom joined in on said "consensus" either.

Tom

Paul is no format authority, but he does have a pulpit. and since he got us to pay attention, he will keep it coming.

 

[microstrip]

It's a little hard for me to take Paul McGowan at his word without knowing what streaming gear he uses and how it's hooked up/configured. Also, when he is comparing CD quality to streaming, what is his CDP/DAC setup? Without knowing this, we don't have a baseline or any knowledge whatsoever as to what kit(s) he is comparing.

I would say, even if he is listening to the same source recording.... but that leads me to this question.....but how do we know exactly if it's the same version/recording/release? It's not like Tidal or Qobuz have verifiable SKU numbers by the sides of the albums we listen too when streaming. We have some information but not 100% verifiable information to know that is the same exact version.

I addressed this question - the same bit content - in a previous post. Although common users can't verify it, streamer developers can do it - they have tools to capture temporary data streams. We should remember that we are not addressing typical equalization or mastering differences, but a diabolic systematic curse that makes any streaming recording an inferior sonic creature.

Here's my take. It's a hit or miss with streaming being what some would consider high end or lesser than a high end format. Streaming has the potential to be phenomenal, especially at higher streaming rates but sometimes the "remastered" crap (even at a higher bit rate) sounds a lot worse than the regular CD version before remastering. Unfortunately, both Tidal and Qobuz do not always pick the best version to stream. For example, Pink Floyd. It sounds like crap streamed but when I put in physical media? It sounds refreshing and everything bounces back to where it should be.

I am happy that the HiRez versions of Aliavox Savell recordings are of excellent quality and I can compare them with CD, ripped CD and SACD versions, as well as with the very biased perception of the real performance. Recording and mastering should be different for vinyl and digital - digitization of analog at best can emulate the analog, it can't optimize a past recording capture optimized for vinyl. Recording engineers have referred to this aspect more than once.

Other songs/albums on streaming can sound unreal. With streaming, you seemingly have three factors instead of two. Not only is a selection recording dependent, it is also the offered version dependent and then bit rate dependent. Streaming has the potential to best physical media when all three criteria are met.....and in that case? It can sound like/be better than physical media and has the potential (key word there) to sound phenomenal.

This is obviously not the case with every song/album Tidal and Qobuz offer.

Most times, when I am listening to an album/song streaming and I am left wanting something, I'll listen to the same song on CD or vinyl. Ah, much better. That's a case of the streaming version missing one, two or all three of the aforementioned criteria.

My problem with streaming isn't the format. I'll enjoy all of the attributes (as well as all of the deficiencies) just as I do with vinyl and CD's. If I had a R2R setup? Same thing. I simply enjoy each for what they have to offer and listen to the best recording/version/playback mechanism available to me at that given time.

Surely we all have similar experiences. However when debating intrinsic features of a system we should focus on the positives - the best experiences - and compare them in both formats.

I don't care if any "consensus" or empirical data suggests that streaming is an inferior format for high end. To some, vinyl is an inferior high end format. I do not in any way agree with that but on the same token, I don't agree with Paul and the others whom joined in on said "consensus" either.

Tom

Vinyl is a technical inferior format (in terms of the usual measurements). However, recordings created anticipating the sound characteristics of vinyl can sound much preferable in this format than a digitization of the master tape. Also users can easily tune their vinyl systems to their preferences, something not so easy with digital. Probably the best way to listen to rock of the 70's in digital format is making an high-rez rip of a top vinyl playing system we like.

You are right, most of the time we try to make our conclusions from comparisons of apples with oranges.

 

[microstrip]

(...) more things to go wrong with vinyl. but since it's less messed with than digital, when right it's better. (...) .

Mike,

I am just hearing our WBF SET friends

"more things to go wrong with tubes, but since it's less messed with than solid state, when right it's better." Oops,

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,

I am just hearing our WBF SET friends

"more things to go wrong with tubes, but since it's less messed with than solid state, when right it's better." Oops,

i'm not crossing swords with you on that tangent. i'll just let it flutter in the wind.

 

[wil]

It's a little hard for me to take Paul McGowan at his word without knowing what streaming gear he uses and how it's hooked up/configured. Also, when he is comparing CD quality to streaming, what is his CDP/DAC setup? Without knowing this, we don't have a baseline or any knowledge whatsoever as to what kit(s) he is comparing.

I would say, even if he is listening to the same source recording.... but that leads me to this question.....but how do we know exactly if it's the same version/recording/release? It's not like Tidal or Qobuz have verifiable SKU numbers by the sides of the albums we listen too when streaming. We have some information but not 100% verifiable information to know that is the same exact version.

Here's my take. It's a hit or miss with streaming being what some would consider high end or lesser than a high end format. Streaming has the potential to be phenomenal, especially at higher streaming rates but sometimes the "remastered" crap (even at a higher bit rate) sounds a lot worse than the regular CD version before remastering. Unfortunately, both Tidal and Qobuz do not always pick the best version to stream. For example, Pink Floyd. It sounds like crap streamed but when I put in physical media? It sounds refreshing and everything bounces back to where it should be.

Other songs/albums on streaming can sound unreal. With streaming, you seemingly have three factors instead of two. Not only is a selection recording dependent, it is also the offered version dependent and then bit rate dependent. Streaming has the potential to best physical media when all three criteria are met.....and in that case? It can sound like/be better than physical media and has the potential (key word there) to sound phenomenal.

This is obviously not the case with every song/album Tidal and Qobuz offer.

Most times, when I am listening to an album/song streaming and I am left wanting something, I'll listen to the same song on CD or vinyl. Ah, much better. That's a case of the streaming version missing one, two or all three of the aforementioned criteria.

My problem with streaming isn't the format. I'll enjoy all of the attributes (as well as all of the deficiencies) just as I do with vinyl and CD's. If I had a R2R setup? Same thing. I simply enjoy each for what they have to offer and listen to the best recording/version/playback mechanism available to me at that given time.

I don't care if any "consensus" or empirical data suggests that streaming is an inferior format for high end. To some, vinyl is an inferior high end format. I do not in any way agree with that but on the same token, I don't agree with Paul and the others whom joined in on said "consensus" either.

Tom

Nicely explained.

The music universe is so vast on streaming, that running into crappy recordings or masterings is pretty easy to deal with —just go listen to something that’s not crappy.

And with classical, that can mean a deep dive into different recordings/performances/interpretations. This can be a combination of fun and frustration, but I can usually find a couple of recordings that stand head and shoulders above the others.

 

[Kingrex]

Vinyl is fun when you hit a record store, get a couple albums, bring them home and spin them. Its an event. Streamimg can at times turn into an endless swirl. Like trying to find something to watch with your wife on Sunday evening.

 

[lordcloud]

It's a little hard for me to take Paul McGowan at his word without knowing what streaming gear he uses and how it's hooked up/configured. Also, when he is comparing CD quality to streaming, what is his CDP/DAC setup? Without knowing this, we don't have a baseline or any knowledge whatsoever as to what kit(s) he is comparing.

I would say, even if he is listening to the same source recording.... but that leads me to this question.....but how do we know exactly if it's the same version/recording/release? It's not like Tidal or Qobuz have verifiable SKU numbers by the sides of the albums we listen too when streaming. We have some information but not 100% verifiable information to know that is the same exact version.

Here's my take. It's a hit or miss with streaming being what some would consider high end or lesser than a high end format. Streaming has the potential to be phenomenal, especially at higher streaming rates but sometimes the "remastered" crap (even at a higher bit rate) sounds a lot worse than the regular CD version before remastering. Unfortunately, both Tidal and Qobuz do not always pick the best version to stream. For example, Pink Floyd. It sounds like crap streamed but when I put in physical media? It sounds refreshing and everything bounces back to where it should be.

Other songs/albums on streaming can sound unreal. With streaming, you seemingly have three factors instead of two. Not only is a selection recording dependent, it is also the offered version dependent and then bit rate dependent. Streaming has the potential to best physical media when all three criteria are met.....and in that case? It can sound like/be better than physical media and has the potential (key word there) to sound phenomenal.

This is obviously not the case with every song/album Tidal and Qobuz offer.

Most times, when I am listening to an album/song streaming and I am left wanting something, I'll listen to the same song on CD or vinyl. Ah, much better. That's a case of the streaming version missing one, two or all three of the aforementioned criteria.

My problem with streaming isn't the format. I'll enjoy all of the attributes (as well as all of the deficiencies) just as I do with vinyl and CD's. If I had a R2R setup? Same thing. I simply enjoy each for what they have to offer and listen to the best recording/version/playback mechanism available to me at that given time.

I don't care if any "consensus" or empirical data suggests that streaming is an inferior format for high end. To some, vinyl is an inferior high end format. I do not in any way agree with that but on the same token, I don't agree with Paul and the others whom joined in on said "consensus" either.

Tom

He's likely using a PS Audio stack

 

[tima]

WHAT no "Lucky Star"

There's something in the air besides the atmosphere...

 

[tima]

The point is quite obvious: are audiophiles not supposed to listen to new music? New music on vinyl is limited. If one does not have access to streaming, one cannot listen to it.

Period.

It's not an 'obvious point', it's a silly question because the idea that anyone is "supposed to" listen to anything makes no sense. If you want to use the locution "not suppose to" you likewise embrace "supposed to". "You are listening to the wrong music" -- how far does that get you? You can have your opinion, others have their's.

What you are trying to imply is that "Streaming gives me access to new music and I like that." Or some such. Why not just say that? As a defense, however, it does not address the sound quality topic.

I find that music recorded in the heyday of big orchestras, say 1960 thru 1985-90 is better performed, better recorded and more interesting than most "new music." That's my opinion. It covers roughly 600 years of music making. There is plenty of it recorded and available on vinyl and compact disc. If I have not heard a piece, it is new to me. Based on RIAA data, "the years 1973 through 2018 saw nearly $29 billion in new vinyl sales." There is plenty of new music to be discovered and I don't need streaming to do that. If you do, that's fine by me.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i did write a response but then deleted it realizing it's a waste of time. the darkness that comes around this forum sometimes is sad.

sigh.

 

[treitz3]

That's sad. Truth be told...

Tom

 

[KeithR]

i did write a response but then deleted it realizing it's a waste of time. the darkness that comes around this forum sometimes is sad.

sigh.

As I said on Ron’s thread, everything sucks here.

 

[treitz3]

Excuse my French but BS.

I read many, many things that are just that. I have for decades.

You give what you give (some more than others in a quantity versus quality factor) and you accept it for what is is.

Not everything "Sucks" here. Extract what you need to and disregard the rest. What that entails is up to you.

Tom

 

[XV-1]

The point is quite obvious: are audiophiles not supposed to listen to new music? New music on vinyl is limited. If one does not have access to streaming, one cannot listen to it.

Period.

Really?

I still find plenty of new release music on vinyl to the point there is too many excellent albums to buy and not enough time and $$ to keep buying them.

But your musical likes need to go past classical and jazz lite to appreciate a lot of new music - sort of opening your mind and soul.

Streaming is good to listen to new albums before I decide or not to buy them. Modern alternative radio stations are also great for new music as well.

Currently spinning Maya Jane Coles, a uk singer songwriter, producer that specialises in trip hop and downtempo electronic - amazingly good and sounds wonderful on vinyl.

 

[Blackmorec]

Well applied streaming is mildly sonically inferior to other formats. It may be superior to other formats in a system if hyper attention was not paid to the other formats.

Being a little inferior to other formats does not exclude it from high end. It's simply not the top tier of high end.

For someone with a strong opinion about things, where would they place vinyl in the stature of high end. I'm sure there are those with tape that scoff at vinyl. Why waste your time and money. If its not tape, its not high end.

Hi Kingrex,
I agree completely, in as far as what you say goes. You talk about ”well applied streaming‘ being mildly inferior to other formats, where hyper attention is paid to those other formats.

But to continue your train of thought and what most of this thread misses is what we get when hyper attention is paid to streaming. I have spent the past 4 years doing exactly that. Instead of buying a Taiko Extreme and letting Emile have all the fun, I spent my time and money on figuring out just how far you can push streaming in terms of sound quality.
My background is in complex systems, but I am not an IT or networking expert, so my approach has been to engage with the very kind and generous people who are experts in the various areas that make up a networked streaming system and follow their advice and guidance.
In all my 50 some years in hi-fi I have yet to discover another area like streaming, where improvements keep on coming and the law of diminishing returns seems to be a very distant horizon that apparently lies well beyond audio paradise. The only law that does seem to apply is that with progress both the level of improvements and their cost do keep increasing.

 

[PeterA]

As I said on Ron’s thread, everything sucks here.

Everything? Really?

I think you’re just expressing frustration that you disagree with a few members’ points of view and the way they express their opinions. Not everyone has to agree. This is life. We should embrace the diversity of opinion expressed here.

In my opinion, this is the best audio forum on the Internet. A few regular members don’t post much anymore, but there seem to be new members every day joining the fun and sharing their views.

i’ve learned a lot here both about audio and about human nature. Your speaker search thread for instance is wonderful. It does not suck at all.

 

[microstrip]

i'm not crossing swords with you on that tangent. i'll just let it flutter in the wind.

Yes, fortunately fluttering in the wind illogical arguments does not make them true.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Based on RIAA data, "the years 1973 through 2018 saw nearly $29 billion in new vinyl sales." There is plenty of new music to be discovered and I don't need streaming to do that. If you do, that's fine by me.

What is the point of using a RIAA sales total number in an audiophile forum? It is nice to know that you are undisturbed to ignore plenty of new musical recordings, but quoting this number does not add any relevant data to the subject - the limitations of the vinyl media considering the last decades recordings.

Surely an analytical study of these numbers split along the years and musical type would be of great interest. Can you supply us with a link to your source?

 

[KeesNL]

Hi, new member here on whatsbest. English isn't my native language so forgive a spelling Error.

For me the last year was when i got really interested in streaming, before that for my personal taste the quality wasn't near my cd oriënted system. Now sold my cd players, had a Classe CDP-202 and a Audionet ART V2. Exploring my Aurender acs100 with a 19v upgrade external linear power and Ansuz A2 cabling. All feeding the data to my Luxman DA-250 dac and connected to a Gato Audio Dia400s nmp. Speakers are Usher audio mini dancer 2 diamond, 2e version. XLR and speakercabel both Ansuz A2. All A2 except the powercord feeding the mainz box, a C edition.

Streaming from Qobuz is not on the same level as playing ripped cd's from the internal ssd drives, one for storage and one dedicated for memory player.
So far upgraded my switch, also 12v linear power feeding it, have a Yeti lan cable custummade.

So before this had a good cd player feeding the dac but now with streaming the total cost gets way higher. Needing a audiophile switch and powersupply (also router side) and long run of real good lan cabling.

I'm really enthousistic on streaming combined with playing from the ssd storage of my Aurender. In my idea streaming can be as good as playing from cd but the cost of it all is really higher to achieve the same level.

You're ideas are welcome.