"More people spend $€£100-400k on a system than 10-40k"...

[the sound of Tao]

It may be the bizarre anomaly that those who are well-heeled don't stress and just spend. The middle income people may feel the financial pressure more and don't spend around their 'affordable' level

Things may go return cycle a bit and perhaps there’ll be a bit more of going back to the roots and also exploring diy with tube amp and speakers kit builds. This hobby can respond to affordability and business opportunity also and there are a range of ways to explore better sound.

 

[asindc]

...Audiogon, for the most part is dead. It's REALLY hard to sell what you have to get something new...

I think some of that can be attributed to the higher prices for posting ads on Audiogon now compared to past years. When I first joined Audiogon in 2004, the posting fee was a flat $6, no matter what you sold. Now, it is a much bigger chunk that they take. I suspect many others have done what I've decided to do, post items for sale on other venues for the most part while still perusing for items to buy on A'gon.

 

[Rhapsody]

Any turntable sales, Bob? And do you see a commonality between the systems that they are buying besides the cost? Congratulations on your success.

Thx Peter- A couple of VYGERS and a Kondo Ginga recently, but not as a rule. It is usually SPEAKERS, actually several M2/M3's because they work so well close to a back wall in the city. Then servers/streaming and a variety of electronics. SPEAKERS are the main draw.

 

[Loheswaran]

Yep, my experience is that it's no big deal to those with a lot of $$$. Spending on audio is usually part of a new room/house along with a LOT of other items.

When someone has to decide between a new amplifier or a car....well???

I totally agree. Up to a point your money is competing with other items. You perhaps get to the levels of some on this forum and then...

I must say that the law of demising returns kicks in with audio in my experience to the extent that you need a significant price hike from my system worth around £30,000 UKP before one gets real improvements. My biggest improvement of late was to get a dedicated audio room during a house extension - although it left with a near-field set up

 

[Rhapsody]

I totally agree. Up to a point your money is competing with other items. You perhaps get to the levels of some on this forum and then...

I must say that the law of demising returns kicks in with audio in my experience to the extent that you need a significant price hike from my system worth around £30,000 UKP before one gets real improvements. My biggest improvement of late was to get a dedicated audio room during a house extension - although it left with a near-field set up

I remember 20 years ago when I started selling Avantgardes via Jim Smith who was the distributor and Jim really built the brand awareness in the US for AV. Anyway, I never forgot Jim telling me he got 85% of his sound and he made(s) great sound, from the interaction between the speakers and the room, then 10% with electronics and 5% with cables and tweaks. I just scratched my head and actually thought he was crazy. Now I agree with him 100%.

 

[PeterA]

Bob, yr brief summary of business seems to mirror Danielle's comment.

My Q is, is there a substantial change in the audio market? I guess expensive gear has always sold, as has budget gear. But in the past, the middle market was always healthy as well. I think the middle drove the market.

Are we now to assume budget and top top end are thriving, but the market has fallen out of the middle?

And if so, does this reflect good home reproduction of music at attainable levels just not meaning enough to enough of the middle classes. Or it does as much as ever to the middle, but it's so expensive to live (esp property prices/mortgages) that spending on hifi isn't being justified?

Marc, Ask Wilson about their lower models and magical about the A and smaller S series models and Pass Labs about their integrated amplifiers and their base models and Firstwatt. Ask SME About the 10, 12, and 15. I think these are all very successful products for both the manufacturer and for the dealer. I think a lot of audio files are also very happy with his level gear because it sounds good and is extremely well-made.

The next question is how to define the middle range.

 

[PeterA]

Thx Peter- A couple of VYGERS and a Kondo Ginga recently, but not as a rule. It is usually SPEAKERS, actually several M2/M3's because they work so well close to a back wall in the city. Then servers/streaming and a variety of electronics. SPEAKERS are the main draw.

I would think the M2 would be a fantastic speaker for Manhattan just as my old magico mini 2 was. Very high-quality sound in a small package built to a very high standard, and good looking in a room that has multiple purpose. Superb background music during entertaining and then nice dedicated listening when the rest of the family is out of the apartment.

 

[Rhapsody]

I would think the M2 would be a fantastic speaker for Manhattan just as my old magico mini 2 was. Very high-quality sound in a small package built to a very high standard, and good looking in a room that has multiple purpose. Superb background music during entertaining and then nice dedicated listening when the rest of the family is out of the apartment.

Bingo!!!

 

[Loheswaran]

I remember 20 years ago when I started selling Avantgardes via Jim Smith who was the distributor and Jim really built the brand awareness in the US for AV. Anyway, I never forgot Jim telling me he got 85% of his sound and he made(s) great sound, from the interaction between the speakers and the room, then 10% with electronics and 5% with cables and tweaks. I just scratched my head and actually thought he was crazy. Now I agree with him 100%.

Hi Rhapsody

I had my ears opened hearing a computer based system using accurate, digital amps and active speakers. I am convinced that for at least 80-90% of people the way to go will be a room correction based digital set up.

All said and done I've unconsciously (due to being in London where space is a premium) had more of a near field set-up. As such when I got my dedicated room, and speakers to match the sound went a significant step forward. Before any more naughty purchases I really need to tune my room (probably something for another thread)

Can I just say that the first high end set up that totally beguiled me was a DPS turntable, torn amp and Avantgarde Unos - brilliant.

I digress a bit but I notice that the well-heeled really do invest in controlling their audio environment - just like any rich and powerful person

I personally have no problem with a system being expensive so long as its about what is in it technology and craftsmanship-wise. What I do not like is unnecessary expenditure on the appearance of the product - or things that do not deliver value/performance.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Polyamorous is the same issue as polyspeakerus... just not enough resources, time and or rooms to do justice to them all lol.

Marc, Ask Wilson about their lower models and magical about the A and smaller S series models and Pass Labs about their integrated amplifiers and their base models and Firstwatt. Ask SME About the 10, 12, and 15. I think these are all very successful products for both the manufacturer and for the dealer. I think a lot of audio files are also very happy with his level gear because it sounds good and is extremely well-made.

The next question is how to define the middle range.

Peter, I think Danielle probably defined it v well, $10-40k. For me, my current system was a bit beyond the upper limit of this range, and I've kinda doubled it w extensive modding and tweaking out, more in the $100k+ range now. But getting to that level and figure spent has been a 7 year journey.

The only independently v wealthy person I know has spent considerably, but I dont know anyone at my middle class professional level of income who would consider spending even 10% of what I have.

For them, a home cinema w music capability, B&O music centre, IPod or Bose equivalent, does very well for them. Music is just of no consequence in their life. They would rather have an expensive coffee maker, tbh.

And I've only got to my level of spending on audio by actively demoting expenditure on other stuff I could easily have prioritised, stuff that "regular" citizens have no qualms about ie top draw soccer season tickets, expensive holidays, performance car ownership.

Most of the middle classes would rank excellent music at home somewhere lower than an automated vacuum cleaner.

 

[gwalt]

I think some of that can be attributed to the higher prices for posting ads on Audiogon now compared to past years. When I first joined Audiogon in 2004, the posting fee was a flat $6, no matter what you sold. Now, it is a much bigger chunk that they take. I suspect many others have done what I've decided to do, post items for sale on other venues for the most part while still perusing for items to buy on A'gon.

I think sales of used gear is taking more creativity and the prices reflect it. I just sold two sets of monoblocks to get the ones i really wanted. However one set I sold was under $4K and the other set I am allowing the potential buyer to pay shipping and full price to audition for 5 days with return acceptance if they did not match up or meet expectations.
I am careful with who I am dealing with here however as the potential second buyer is a manufacturer of high end gear and I am paid in full upfront. Just saying if you want to sell some used gear it may and or will take some new creativity. With this added creativity it could mean new sales for dealers also.

 

[Rhapsody]

Hi Rhapsody

I had my ears opened hearing a computer based system using accurate, digital amps and active speakers. I am convinced that for at least 80-90% of people the way to go will be a room correction based digital set up.

All said and done I've unconsciously (due to being in London where space is a premium) had more of a near field set-up. As such when I got my dedicated room, and speakers to match the sound went a significant step forward. Before any more naughty purchases I really need to tune my room (probably something for another thread)

Can I just say that the first high end set up that totally beguiled me was a DPS turntable, torn amp and Avantgarde Unos - brilliant.

I digress a bit but I notice that the well-heeled really do invest in controlling their audio environment - just like any rich and powerful person

I personally have no problem with a system being expensive so long as its about what is in it technology and craftsmanship-wise. What I do not like is unnecessary expenditure on the appearance of the product - or things that do not deliver value/performance.

Hi back at ya

Well yeah about your last sentence, BUT everyone is different. I have one customer who has multiple $20M homes and I think 5 systems in the one place in Manhattan. He said to me the other day, I can't tell the difference between the way these "things" sound, I am a visual person. For him he enjoys that the systems make great music but he enjoys the aesthetics probably more. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[ack]

The one observation in my experience is five years ago almost any used gear that I had a hard time selling in the US went somewhere in Asia without much fanfare. That has pretty much STOPPED.

I saw the same thing with my own gear; I used to typically sell them to Japanese and Thai addresses, but this just stopped

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hi back at ya

Well yeah about your last sentence, BUT everyone is different. I have one customer who has multiple $20M homes and I think 5 systems in the one place in Manhattan. He said to me the other day, I can't tell the difference between the way these "things" sound, I am a visual person. For him he enjoys that the systems make great music but he enjoys the aesthetics probably more. Different strokes for different folks.

If he'd have said that at OMA in NY, he would have probably been chased out of the store by Mr. Weiss, lol.

 

[Rhapsody]

I saw the same thing with my own gear; I used to typically sell them to Japanese and Thai addresses, but this just stopped

I've never seen anything stop quite like this.

 

[Rhapsody]

If he'd have said that at OMA in NY, he would have probably been chased out of the store by Mr. Weiss, lol.

I don't feel that way at all. I think everyone is different and it's good to find out what they like and what fits into their life and environment and then help them have it in their life. Even if it's contrary to what I might think.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bob, there are retailers who will take against customers and scupper their own sale. I've met two in my life. Not exactly out of the "How To Make Your First $1m In Business" handbook.

I just couldn't imagine Jonathan being as diplomatic as you.

 

[Rhapsody]

Bob, there are retailers who will take against customers and scupper their own sale. I've met two in my life. Not exactly out of the "How To Make Your First $1m In Business" handbook.

I just couldn't imagine Jonathan being as diplomatic as you.

Dealers, manufacturers and customers......everyone is different and different styles work for different personalities/people.

 

[Loheswaran]

Pretty much all of the larger sales and most of them are full system sales and are sold at list price basically because all of these people have a LOT of $$$. Several of them live in $50M+ townhouses in NYC, actually four of them out of the 11 do.

I don't think ANY of them read audio forums. Most are VERY successful people that have a LOT going on. They all have one thing in common, they DO love to listen to music. They don't really care much about the equipment other than when choosing their system that will fit their environment.

Half of these people have designers/architects/assistants that are also involved.

I think what you say chimes with what the guy from Unique Audio in the UK says - well-heeled low profile music lovers that stay quiet.

I recall buying a motor and controller of someone selling one on a Dps turntable he modified to a threes phase. Now the DPS 3 phase is not Ultra High end, but he had £80K MAgicos and Soullution Pre-power. He used a CAD DAC - the set-up must have easily been over £100,000. He didn't know any of the forums save to post a sale in one of them but had a great ear and deep pockets to indulge them.

I won't give away his name, his job, nor where in London he works save fr it being very big and trendy.

If truth be told such 'bleeding edge' audio ought to benefit plebs lower down the musical food chain - both with 'trickle down' technology and sometimes bargain second hand sales.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Bob, there are retailers who will take against customers and scupper their own sale. I've met two in my life. Not exactly out of the "How To Make Your First $1m In Business" handbook.

I just couldn't imagine Jonathan being as diplomatic as you.

i doubt many retailers get into the 'no soup for you' mode. i think that is a myth. at the top of the food chain people buy stuff for all kinds of reasons, including how it might look in their 3rd house, their friend said it's cool, or the interior designer spec'd it.

the approach is 'will that be cash, check, or credit card?'.

next!