"More people spend $€£100-400k on a system than 10-40k"...

[Al M.]

So, you have never bought gear that you ended up moving along quickly because it didn't work out like you had hoped it would? I can think of a couple i have tried that didn't stay long (Einstein "The Absolute tune" integrated was the last such failure for me)?

No, I only upgraded from bought gear naturally, not because anything would have been a failure or mismatch.

There is one exception in 3 decades of my audiophile path: the Denafrips Terminator DAC, which I knew was a high risk proposition. Knowing that, I only took the risk after negotiating with the importer a 10 % restocking fee, which he did not usually do. I was initially happy with it until I changed the preamp in my system (I got an Octave HP 300 SE demo in house *)) which revealed a synthetic tone that was not obvious with my Pass B1 buffer. So I returned it with one day to go into the end of the 14 day period. It was an expensive audition ($ 500 with return shipping) but it was worth it to me, I learned a lot.

________________

*) I then bought the better model of the Octave, the HP 700, which I am super happy with, the end game preamp for me.

 

[KeithR]

Perfect example: JM Labs Mezzo Utopia was $13k over a decade ago while the current Focal Scala Evo version is $40k. Look what Dynaudio has done with the latest Confidence line (have doubled). And these are far bigger companies than the usual overpriced man in a garage stuff. Go look at cables if you really want a laugh.

People should go look at $10k speakers and come back with what they find. It’s far and few between. Same with $5k amps and preamps. That’s where the middle lies in this hobby as the average system is <$20k.

Basically as the hobby has shrunk, smaller manufacturers need to support the same living on fewer customers, so bring out more expensive gear. That’s the business model.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Keith, I'm not seeing any artificial hyperinflation in brands like Zu, Devore, LTA, Audion, Schiit, Holo Springs, Soundsmith, Brinkmann, Innuos, Small Green Computer, and I'm sure many more. It is totally possible to have a two-source system for $10-20k and not feel like you're skimping at all. And these brands are not smashing thru price barriers year to year.

 

[Loheswaran]

You don't need to replace failures if you don't have failures. That worked out for me since I'm not wealthy.

I've had cheap failures - never more expensive ones. By cheap - buy twice.

The difficulty with audio is 'matching and taste' and the wealthier you get the pickier you can be.

I must say if I had silly money and the room for it - FM Amps and MBL speakers - but I bet they won't match

 

[the sound of Tao]

Keith, I'm not seeing any artificial hyperinflation in brands like Zu, Devore, LTA, Audion, Schiit, Holo Springs, Soundsmith, Brinkmann, Innuos, Small Green Computer, and I'm sure many more. It is totally possible to have a two-source system for $10-20k and not feel like you're skimping at all. And these brands are not smashing thru price barriers year to year.

Marc guessing you haven't mentioned this to Ra... we all know this is true but remember the first rule in fight club... don’t talk about fight club.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Graham, she has her own version of Audio Club. The first rule is she doesn't want to know. As are the second and third rules Lol.

Hey, if I was starting today, I'd find a modded Garrard 301 or PTP Lenco w Terminator arm and entry Soundsmith cart, Innuos Zenith server and Holo Springs dac, Bakoon AMP-13 integrated amp, Tom Evans phono and Zu Druids VI. $25-30k the lot.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Graham, she has her own version of Audio Club. The first rule is she doesn't want to know. As are the second and third rules Lol.

Hey, if I was starting today, I'd find a modded Garrard 301 or PTP Lenco w Terminator arm and entry Soundsmith cart, Innuos Zenith server and Holo Springs dac, Bakoon AMP-13 integrated amp, Tom Evans phono and Zu Druids VI. $30k the lot.

Nice... Ra is a treasure.
In terms of affordable electronics I liked the idea of single ended SS like the Bakoon and had been thinking about adding a low powered single ended SS into the mix (like the Bakoon or the Pass Sit or XA25) but it was interesting to read Herb Reichert’s Stereophile current review of the new Pass XA25 integrated (which he nominates as his new reference amp).

But in a comparison to even a cheaper entry level Line Magnetic LM518 SET he identifies that there are still things (for me important deal breaker kinda things) that the cheap LM518 clearly does that this SS doesn’t. I’ve heard the LM518 and it’s nowhere near capable musically of what some of the better LM SETs are let alone what they can then do with modded caps etc, upgraded valves and a proper preamp up front. I wouldn’t be leaving some proper valves like your NAT or a good SET with a great preamp out of a new start from scratch affordable line up.

Then I’d also remember rule 4 of fight club and add an m scaler and an extreme

 

[bonzo75]

Like in fight Club, audiophiles with systems need to go back down to zero to build back up

 

[the sound of Tao]

I did think of a strategy to go back to zero and it involved going off on a global adventure for a year visiting the great music halls of the world then coming back and starting fresh. For the very first time I’d likely just start again with much of what I’m running with now which is a good thing (if a somewhat surprising thing) to discover.

 

[Folsom]

Like in fight Club, audiophiles with systems need to go back down to zero to build back up

So I can come over and kick holes in all your shit and tell you that you're nothing, so you'll be able to return to the essence of being an audiophile? And you'll thank me?

 

[the sound of Tao]

So I can come over and kick holes in all your shit and tell you that you're nothing, so you'll be able to return to the essence of being an audiophile? And you'll thank me?

Well we already do it to each other online I ‘spose. Whoops, first rule of forum club...

 

[Folsom]

We already do it to each other online I ‘spose. Whoops, first rule of forum club...

Ya but I want to hear the voicecoil scrape when my foot goes through the driver's diaphragm.

On a more serious note, I think Ked's right in some ways. It's easy to become obsessed with "what's better" and not what one actually wants to listen to.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Folsom, its perfectly possible to stop building/scrapping/building/scrapping etc. If you come to realise yr current system can only truly be outclassed w components many times the price, then it is time to stop. There is really no point looking simply for a different flavour. For me the joy is in system optimisation, experimenting w mods, tweaks and ancilliaries, and maxxing out the room. And for me that's a blessed relief, because the cash flow for hifi is drying up as the chapel here needs constant feeding.

 

[morricab]

Nice... Ra is a treasure.
In terms of affordable electronics I liked the idea of single ended SS like the Bakoon and had been thinking about adding a low powered single ended SS into the mix (like the Bakoon or the Pass Sit or XA25) but it was interesting to read Herb Reichert’s Stereophile current review of the new Pass XA25 integrated (which he nominates as his new reference amp).

But in a comparison to even a cheaper entry level Line Magnetic LM518 SET he identifies that there are still things (for me important deal breaker kinda things) that the cheap LM518 clearly does that this SS doesn’t. I’ve heard the LM518 and it’s nowhere near capable musically of what some of the better LM SETs are let alone what they can then do with modded caps etc, upgraded valves and a proper preamp up front. I wouldn’t be leaving some proper valves like your NAT or a good SET with a great preamp out of a new start from scratch affordable line up.

Then I’d also remember rule 4 of fight club and add an m scaler and an extreme

The big LM amps are good but not so reliable. NAT had a similar quality issue that hurt their reputation in Europe...great sounding but...

That said, Klaus Jaeckle from Acousticplan (German maker of nice tubes and hybrid gear) said to me there was no way he could build the LM219ia for the low money they charged. I heard it at his studio on a pair of LM WE clones. His own Aruna sounded better but not by much and was twice the price.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Like in fight Club, audiophiles with systems need to go back down to zero to build back up

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it get revealed that Brad Pitt and Ed Norton are one and the same? Ie the whole thing is imaginary?

Like the ideal system.

 

[the sound of Tao]

The big LM amps are good but not so reliable. NAT had a similar quality issue that hurt their reputation in Europe...great sounding but...

That said, Klaus Jaeckle from Acousticplan (German maker of nice tubes and hybrid gear) said to me there was no way he could build the LM219ia for the low money they charged. I heard it at his studio on a pair of LM WE clones. His own Aruna sounded better but not by much and was twice the price.

I’ve not heard anything on reliability issues with LM Brad and I’ve got two of the LM SETs now. I bought the second one recently as the other has been absolutely awesome and completely trouble free... even more so than the other valves amps I’ve had.

A mate had the 219ia for years and it never did anything wrong. I do prefer the 508 and 300B based LM amps to the 219ia, more vitality and verve and life. As big as the 219ia was it was a really lovely amp and super reliable. I heard it many times. Their premium amps are all built like tanks (and weigh almost as much). I haven’t as much experience with their cheapest amps but a few guys I know have lived happily with the LM518ia and I’ve heard those a few times (still nice) and no reliability issues that I’ve heard of there either.

There’s a couple of guys here with LM SETs and I’ve never heard any mention of any reliability issues there.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Other than some tube noise I can't eradicate, zero issue w my Nats, four years into ownership. The Nat Symmetrical preamp I demoed had some issues, but I preferred the Utopia.

However they wouldn't be quiet enough for running horns, so if I lose my marbles and take the plunge on anything 107-109dB+ efficient, I would likely consider strongly a move to the Bakoon AMP-13, based on the stellar demo on Cessaro Liszts I heard. If I had more cash, likely TMayer SETs w his 10Y linestage or passive Emia autoformer pre.

 

[tima]

Like in fight Club, audiophiles with systems need to go back down to zero to build back up

And you are leading by example! :-o

 

[morricab]

I’ve not heard anything on reliability issues with LM Brad and I’ve got two of the LM SETs now. I bought the second one recently as the other has been absolutely awesome and completely trouble free... even more so than the other valves amps I’ve had.

A mate had the 219ia for years and it never did anything wrong. I do prefer the 508 and 300B based LM amps to the 219ia, more vitality and verve and life. As big as the 219ia was it was a really lovely amp and super reliable. I heard it many times. Their premium amps are all built like tanks (and weigh almost as much). I haven’t as much experience with their cheapest amps but a few guys I know have lived happily with the LM518ia and I’ve heard those a few times (still nice) and no reliability issues that I’ve heard of there either.

There’s a couple of guys here with LM SETs and I’ve never heard any mention of any reliability issues there.

I know a couple guys who bought LM (one guy bought their big 212 based ones after first buying 845 monos)...they had issues. The one guy who had two sets had issues with both. Bad luck...maybe...

 

[morricab]

Other than some tube noise I can't eradicate, zero issue w my Nats, four years into ownership. The Nat Symmetrical preamp I demoed had some issues, but I preferred the Utopia.

However they wouldn't be quiet enough for running horns, so if I lose my marbles and take the plunge on anything 107-109dB+ efficient, I would likely consider strongly a move to the Bakoon AMP-13, based on the stellar demo on Cessaro Liszts I heard. If I had more cash, likely TMayer SETs w his 10Y linestage or passive Emia autoformer pre.

NAT improved quality over time but earlier stuff was infamous for failure. The Dutch loved this brand but many told me they had moved on after failures. That said I have owned two NAT products and like the brand.

FWIW, Ayon is also notorious for reliability issues. One dealer told us that most of the amps he sold from Ayon had issues needing repair. Still, good sounding gear...