"More people spend $€£100-400k on a system than 10-40k"...

[Lee]

Top end is clearly driving the profitability in the market. That is because if you make in low volume you cannot sell a lot of items (you just can't make enough) so to meet cost of living + a bit of luxury you need to sell expensive. Not many manufacturers are setup to do high volume in audio and those that are are probably making money on really high volume, low margin inexpensive stuff.

I think you are right that there are middle range buyers out there but their numbers are not so much higher than those at the top of the range. This means there is no way to sell a high volume of middle priced gear. If you can't sell any more 20K speakers in a year than 150K speakers then clearly you have a problem with making enough money at 20K speakers to have a viable business. My solution is to make my audio business a hobby business where I don't need to sell much to make it viable. A manufacturer is in another circumstance where he has to sell gear (unless he is a hobby manufactuerer just turning out a few pieces a year...but then he will be pricey). So what happens, many companies focus on one of the two ends and a lot of stuff in the middle is evaporating or moving to the high end pricewise to attract the top end buyers...Middle class hobbyists are left with buying used if they want something really good for middle money.

Several speaker brands I know make money on both their affordable and ultra-luxury segments.

 

[Lee]

"More people spend $€£100-400k on a system than 10-40k"...Doesn't that just reflect the growing divide between the 'haves' and 'have nots'?

There's no growing divide. The poor are getting richer, the middle is getting richer and the rich are getting richer.

 

[Bodhi]

There's no growing divide. The poor are getting richer, the middle is getting richer and the rich are getting richer.

That's not what my friend in Roslyn, PA told me. He said greedy Corporations in the US are increasingly screwing US workers at the bottom, so there is a growing divide between the 'haves' and 'have nots'. In particular, he noted he is being asked to work increasingly longer hours for basically the same pay, and that wages for low and middle income levels have flatlined and are not keeping up with inflation (as in Australia). But then again I don't live in the US, so who am I to know?

 

[BlueFox]

Bodhi, you are correct. The US is heading for a major economic backlash. The rich are getting richer, their taxes have been reduced, and government deficits are at record highs, and getting worse. We live in scary times.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Bodhi, Lee and BlueFox:

STOP POSTING ABOUT POLITICS!

 

[treitz3]

*Clears throat*

Thank you, Ron. There are other avenues for that. This is not one of them.

Tom

 

[BlueFox]

Sorry.

 

[BlueFox]

Bodhi, I agree (again). I know I was just stating a fact, not a political opinion. Facts are facts, regardless of a political belief. Anyway, it isn’t worth arguing over.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Fair enough Ron, though I didn't think I was making a comment about Politics per say, just the state of employment conditions at ground level as it relates to the thread topic. Are we going 1984 on this forum?

I detected four (4) political/economic assertions.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . I know I was just stating a fact, not a political opinion. Facts are facts, regardless of a political belief.

. . .

This is why we do not allow political posts on this forum.

 

[tima]

Just press this button from the bar when writing the post and copy the link there.

View attachment 60698

Just MHO, please take no offense, but quoting a minimal part from a text without a proper reference is poor style. As you are quoting an internet article the link should be mandatory.

Sure, but since I wasn't taking his comment in any way out of context, I'm not sure that's mandatory.

I think it is mandatory to give a reference. If nothing else, it's a courtesy, respectful, and recognition to the author of the information you're using to create a post. You didn't even give the author's name.

As to quoting out of context, let your reader judge by giving them access to the article you're talking about.

I found no way to search Mono & Stereo - maybe it's there, but not obvious to me.

People should also give catalog numbers for records they write about.

 

[Bodhi]

I detected four (4) political/economic assertions.

You're fishing...

 

[Loheswaran]

I

You're fishing...

I’m with Ron on this.
I have to say this has been an excellent thread. This really isn’t the forum for politics and whilst the op may have made an economic point of sorts at the start I am sure that was not the thrust. Trust me I have very strong political views

 

[assessor43]

I give you and example. A friend of mine sells vintage equipment. He has an older point to point wired Mcintosh solid state amp and preamp from the sixties with older altec lansing speakers from roughly the same period. Sounds pretty good. I have listened to the newer Luxman Integrated amps 10K with Sonus Faber speakers 14K. At first I thought the Luxman system sounded great but after several listens I really do not overwhelmingly prefer the sound of it over the older Mcintosh well maintained setup. The music sounded detailed but I am not hearing 25K worth of sound vs say 2.5K. The turntable was a newer Luxman belt drive 7K vs an older early seventies Dual idler $250.00. Like I said the Luxman system costs over 25K vs 2.5K. If you had an upper middle class income and listened to these two setups, well geez I dont know. the Mcintosh system sounded way more alive maybe due to the altec horns but hey, for 2.5K in excellent shape, I do not see the reason to spend over 25K and this lends itself to the readers original post. I think he may be on to something.

 

[andromedaaudio]

The worst example /exces is some of those ceramic / diamond cone filled speaker designs on which they play special selected cd's full of special effect sounds on shows
I think it ll be a real bummer if you take those home and play some real music on them.
I think knowledge and expirience are more important then money .
Money helps but is certainly not a guarantee for succes.

 

[Al M.]

...read this just now on Mono And Stereo, words to this effect from a new high end specialist spkrs manufacturer.

Has it always been the case that the uber spendiest systems are bought in greater numbers than ones that the standard middle classes choose to buy?

Or are we talking a totally new phenomenon of the "squeezed middle"?

Ie Gen Z happy with headphones or IPod or basic Rega, $5k their limit; and AE crowd in HK happy w their rareified pieces, $500k+ not causing them to blink.

And an arid desert in between.

The Alsyvox guy whose entry level speaker, the Tintoretto, costs 50 thousand euro, complains about the high end losing the segment of potential buyers for whole systems between 10 and 40 thousand euros?

That's rich.

If that's of such a concern to him, than why doesn't he make a 10 thousand euro speaker? I have one in that price range in my own system (Reference 3A Reflector speaker for $ 12 K).

 

[Gregadd]

There's no growing divide. The poor are getting richer, the middle is getting richer and the rich are getting richer.

Lol.

 

[tima]

The worst example /exces is some of those ceramic / diamond cone filled speaker designs on which they play special selected cd's full of special effect sounds on shows
I think it ll be a real bummer if you take those home and play some real music on them.
I think knowledge and expirience are more important then money .
Money helps but is certainly not a guarantee for succes.

We certainly like to think that. It seems comforting. I suspect the typical audiophile gains experience over years of participation, while gradually building equity in their system and that serves the next upgrade. We also have examples of money buying knowledge and experience. While money is no guarantee for success, the wealthy have an easier time replacing failures. What I see from some wealthy are that status and standing are to them important emblems of success and if some audio thing doesn't lead to status, replace it with one that does. While there is something virtuous in acquiring knowledge and experience through one's own effort, if you can buy it that's fine too. If you have your own way, why does it matter that others do too? As long as there has been success there have been those who resent it, or think they've been cheated, or some unfair thing happened, etc. Every audio forum I've been on has some members who talk about elitist this or that - I guess it makes them feel better. Dogs bark, the caravan moves on. Play a record.

 

[Al M.]

We certainly like to think that. It seems comforting. I suspect the typical audiophile gains experience over years of participation, while gradually building equity in their system and that serves the next upgrade. We also have examples of money buying knowledge and experience. While money is no guarantee for success, the wealthy have an easier time replacing failures. What I see from some wealthy are that status and standing are to them important emblems of success and if some audio thing doesn't lead to status, replace it with one that does. While there is something virtuous in acquiring knowledge and experience through one's own effort, if you can buy it that's fine too. If you have your own way, why does it matter that others do too? As long as there has been success there have been those who resent it, or think they've been cheated, or some unfair thing happened, etc. Every audio forum I've been on has some members who talk about elitist this or that - I guess it makes them feel better. Dogs bark, the caravan moves on. Play a record.

You don't need to replace failures if you don't have failures. That worked out for me since I'm not wealthy.

 

[morricab]

You don't need to replace failures if you don't have failures. That worked out for me since I'm not wealthy.

So, you have never bought gear that you ended up moving along quickly because it didn't work out like you had hoped it would? I can think of a couple i have tried that didn't stay long (Einstein "The Absolute tune" integrated was the last such failure for me)?