Most Important When Setting Up A World Class System— Prioritizing Subjective or Objective Criteria?

[Ted Denney III]

First, the basics. For the sake of this mind walk, we are not dealing with component stew. We are starting with a full loom of electronics from one manufacturer. We will presume that these electronics were purchased because we like the way they sound, and we feel they have adequate power and specifications to deal with the rest of our system, including driving the speakers and integrating with our front end(s). The speakers are well matched to the amplifiers. There is not an issue with current delivery, damping factor, or any other compatibility issue—the electronics and speakers are well integrated.

Similarly, if we have a turntable and a phono cartridge, the phono preamplifier is more than adequate to deal with the demands or output of the cartridge. If the front end is also digital, we have a high-quality DAC, and its input and output impedance perfectly matches the line stage.

Now that we have the system basics covered, let’s discuss acoustics. The acoustics of the room are excellent, with no significant low-frequency standing waves. No more so than would be exhibited in a top-tier home stereo setup, and the room has already been traditionally treated. Acoustics are not an issue.

And that’s it. How do we get from what we have above to an absolutely world-class system? What does that process look like? And ultimately, what will serve as the determinant factor in going from the accumulation of good electronics and speakers, adequately matched, and with a high-quality front end that is compatible with downstream electronics with excellent acoustics. How do we get from a solid foundation to world-class sound? Is it primarily a question of objective measurements, or is it a question of subjective tuning?

What steps will we follow to build an absolutely world-class system in every way— including extreme holography— think Hologram Deck of the Enterprise, ability of the system to convey extreme emotion, accurate timbre, dynamics that you feel in your body, extreme air and articulation of high frequencies without grain or fatigue, in short, the system we all dream of.

 

[Charles S]

Ted, it's a very interesting question and I know that folks will have many interesting suggestions. I see that you are a cable "wire" manufacturer. I am a great proponent of power and wire. I view wires as components. For example, although my pre (C-12000) and source (MCD12000) are relatively inexpensive by your standards I have exactly the gear that I want, but I connect the two with a balanced 1-meter AQ Dragon IC which costs about the same amount as my MCD12000. I view this IC as a component, as I do all my "wires". So although you and I don't know each other, we are on the same page, because I believe that absent absolutely superior wires, any reference high end system cannot work optimally.

Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest

Amps: McIntosh: MC3500MKII (2); MC1.25KW (2); MC2.1KW An
Preamp: C-12000 An
Sources: MCD12000 An; MVP881; MVP851; MR87; Marantz 510LV; Lenovo Yoga laptop
Speakers: Wilson Chronosonic XVX
Sub-Woofer: Wilson Thor’s Hammer; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover
Cables Main System AQ: WEL Signature speaker cables; 24’ balanced IC; balanced 1-meter Dragon IC ; WEL Signature digital, Coffee digital coaxial cables; Diamond optical (2); Diamond USB; Dragon (5 HC, 3 source cords); Thunder & Monsoon power cords
Cables Subwoofer System AQ: Redwood speaker cable; Wolf balanced subwoofer IC; Wind balanced IC to ActivXO; Hurricane HC; Firebird HC; Firebird Source; Dragon HC, power cords
Power Conditioners: AQ Niagara 7000; Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines.
Isolation: Wilson Pedestals; Bassocontinuo McIntosh Ultra Feet; X-material plinth
Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD)
Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes

 

[microstrip]

Are you trying to create an artificial conflict situation using an extremist and childish objective approach and a sublime subjective approach?

Everyone should know that the high-end is essentially subjective, but framed by objective aspects, that can't be ignored and are more complicated than most audiophiles consider. IMO we need both.

 

[Ted Denney III]

Are you trying to create an artificial conflict situation using an extremist and childish objective approach and a sublime subjective approach?

Everyone should know that the high-end is essentially subjective, but framed by objective aspects, that can't be ignored and are more complicated than most audiophiles consider. IMO we need both.

This is a pointed discussion meant to uncover the ways we progress from buying expensive, shiny boxes and speakers, placing them properly, and treating our rooms, to ultimately realizing world-class sound. This topic is highly poignant to anyone in the hobby and will uncover differing views on how we transition from merely having expensive stereos to achieving something that is virtual reality, world-class, and incredibly enjoyable to listen to.

 

[TonyW]

The best sounding HiFi doesn’t exist because it is subjective. To say, “World Class” implies a contest. Should we have a contest? Let’s all travel to everyone’s homes and listen to HiFi’s. It can get crazy like those car stereo contests and devolve into who has the loudest most earth shattering head splitting bass.

These past couple of years my wife, who says she can’t hear a difference sits down and listens to music with me now and then. She’s never done that before. That makes my system World Class.

First Rule of Audio: Your system sounds great, until you hear a better system.

 

[Ted Denney III]

To say, “World Class” implies a contest. Should we have a contest?

This topic is highly poignant to anyone in the hobby and will uncover differing views on how we transition from merely having expensive stereos to achieving something that is virtual reality, world-class, and incredibly enjoyable to listen to.

Excellent point Tony. Through discussion we find truth. Read my response, which further defines “world class”

 

[ssfas]

First, the basics. For the sake of this mind walk, we are not dealing with component stew. We are starting with a full loom of electronics from one manufacturer. We will presume that these electronics were purchased because we like the way they sound, and we feel they have adequate power and specifications to deal with the rest of our system, including driving the speakers and integrating with our front end(s). The speakers are well matched to the amplifiers. There is not an issue with current delivery, damping factor, or any other compatibility issue—the electronics and speakers are well integrated.

Similarly, if we have a turntable and a phono cartridge, the phono preamplifier is more than adequate to deal with the demands or output of the cartridge. If the front end is also digital, we have a high-quality DAC, and its input and output impedance perfectly matches the line stage.

Now that we have the system basics covered, let’s discuss acoustics. The acoustics of the room are excellent, with no significant low-frequency standing waves. No more so than would be exhibited in a top-tier home stereo setup, and the room has already been traditionally treated. Acoustics are not an issue.

And that’s it. How do we get from what we have above to an absolutely world-class system? What does that process look like? And ultimately, what will serve as the determinant factor in going from the accumulation of good electronics and speakers, adequately matched, and with a high-quality front end that is compatible with downstream electronics with excellent acoustics. How do we get from a solid foundation to world-class sound? Is it primarily a question of objective measurements, or is it a question of subjective tuning? What steps will we follow to build an absolutely world-class system in every way?

Make sure you go to enough live unamplified music to remind yourself that trying to replicate it electronically is a fool's errand.

I have no idea when you get to the "world class" threshold. I've heard - and hated - alleged world class systems. I've heard far more pleasurable and much cheaper systems, sometimes better systems using cheaper/smaller/simpler products from the same manufacturer.

My stereo system is enormously pleasurable, I wouldn't change a thing and it's extremely budget compared to the stuff knocking about on this site.
I've heard $100,000 DACs, but am more than happy with mine, which cost me £3,500 off eBay.

The system was put together over about 2 years for a newly built room, new electrics, acoustically treated (although none of it visible). I'd be surprised if I change anything before we move house, in 8 to 10 years. I've been in this position before and twice had no need to change anything for 10 years.

Could I spend $1/2m on a hifi system tomorrow? Yes, but the wife might start asking questions. Do I have any inclination to do so? No.
I'm at what you might call a "subjective apex", totally happy where I am, no FOMO, I'm utterly immune to all the media, spin and marketing that tells me to go ever onwards and upwards.

I used to go to demo's of all sorts of hifi. I still get the invitations. I now just can't be bothered. It was useful when I did go, but it is no longer relevant.

 

[Ted Denney III]

Make sure you go to enough live unamplified music to remind yourself that trying to replicate it electronically is a fool's errand.

I have no idea when you get to the "world class" threshold. I've heard - and hated - alleged world class systems. I've heard far more pleasurable and much cheaper systems, sometimes better systems using cheaper/smaller/simpler products from the same manufacturer.

My stereo system is enormously pleasurable, I wouldn't change a thing and it's extremely budget compared to the stuff knocking about on this site.
I've heard $100,000 DACs, but am more than happy with mine, which cost me £3,500 off eBay.

The system was put together over about 2 years for a newly built room, new electrics, acoustically treated (although none of it visible). I'd be surprised if I change anything before we move house, in 8 to 10 years. I've been in this position before and twice had no need to change anything for 10 years.

Could I spend $1/2m on a hifi system tomorrow? Yes, but the wife might start asking questions. Do I have any inclination to do so? No.
I'm at what you might call a "subjective apex", totally happy where I am, no FOMO, I'm utterly immune to all the media, spin and marketing that tells me to go ever onwards and upwards.

I used to go to demo's of all sorts of hifi. I still get the invitations. I now just can't be bothered. It was useful when I did go, but it is no longer relevant.

People seem to be getting put off by the ambiguous term, “world class” I’m going to correct that now. Thanks for your observation.

 

[TonyW]

People seem to be getting put off by the ambiguous term, “world class” I’m going to correct that now. Thanks for your observation.

I think it’s because for decades now in Automotive, World Class manufacturing or World Class quality came to mean we are the best in the world. It’s a big claim to make.

My claim is that I have the best Audio system in my neighborhood. Simply because no one else in my neighborhood cares.

 

[Ted Denney III]

I think it’s because for decades now in Automotive, World Class manufacturing or World Class quality came to mean we are the best in the world. It’s a big claim to make.

My claim is that I have the best Audio system in my neighborhood. Simply because no one else in my neighborhood cares.

Thank you. I’ve rewritten the conclusion of this thought piece to reflect valid concerns re my terminology “world class“

 

[DasguteOhr]

First of all, you need a suitable room to use the entire audio spectrum from 20hz-20kHz, you need 100 cubic meters of volume. Below that, there are always big problems in the bass range. You have to put in too much effort to get clean bass. In small rooms, a 2-way stand-mounted/monitor speaker usually sounds better, there are plenty of them that play excellently down to 35hz. The air displacement volume of small membranes stimulates fewer room modes.

 

[TonyW]

At some point, just keep a band and an orchestra on retainer. It would be cheaper. I bet some of these stars would love a home-cooked meal for a few songs.

 

[Al M.]

First of all, you need a suitable room to use the entire audio spectrum from 20hz-20kHz, you need 100 cubic meters of volume. Below that, there are always big problems in the bass range. You have to put in too much effort to get clean bass. In small rooms, a 2-way stand-mounted/monitor speaker usually sounds better, there are plenty of them that play excellently down to 35hz. The air displacement volume of small membranes stimulates fewer room modes.

What room dimensions approximately does this translate to?

 

[DasguteOhr]

What room dimensions approximately does this translate to?

40 square meters of floor space with a ceiling height of 2.5 meters( german standard). The higher the room, the better it sounds. I have listen cheap speakers in such rooms like this that perform well above their price tag.
My cousin had a dream come true when he bought a B&W 800 matrix. In a 30 square meter room the bass would crush you even though it creates a cylinder wave in the bass. Then he moved into an old manor house with 180 cubic meters of volume. He only uses room acoustic elements in the ceiling corners. It sounds so much better that I can't describe it, you have to hear it.
I'm going out on a limb and saying that 70% of the good sound comes from the room.
so that you can better estimate the size the B&W is 2.2m high with adjustable base plate.

 

[thedudeabides]

Is it primarily a question of objective measurements, or is it a question of subjective tuning?

Measurements are clearly superior when compared to our auditory acuity. When I had a fully equipped audio system, one of my favorite recordings, that was in constant rotation, was "Best Audiophile Frequency Sweeps." Outstanding.

 

[Maryland]

Try as I might, I haven't found a way to listen to a graph.

 

[Robh3606]

Hello

Why just "World Class" ? Why would you limit a balanced approach and not use it to set up any system? It's glaringly obvious you need both to succeed to set up any system.

World Class to me is completely meaningless. Word Class to me is code for exclusive as in expensive which again is completely meaningless WRT how well a system is integrated and how it sounds.

IMHO You are chasing ghosts! I could care less if a system is "world class". All I care about is, I like the way it sounds and if I get enjoyment from it. If I do case closed.

Rob

 

[Robh3606]

Try as I might, I haven't found a way to listen to a graph.

That's not the purpose. The idea is to give you an easy to way to make comparisons on measured attributes like frequency response, directivity, distortion, wow and flutter, and on and on.

Rob

 

[ssfas]

First of all, you need a suitable room to use the entire audio spectrum from 20hz-20kHz, you need 100 cubic meters of volume. Below that, there are always big problems in the bass range. You have to put in too much effort to get clean bass. In small rooms, a 2-way stand-mounted/monitor speaker usually sounds better, there are plenty of them that play excellently down to 35hz. The air displacement volume of small membranes stimulates fewer room modes.

My room is 18x14x9' so about 75 m3. Wilson Sabrina are specified 32Hz -3dB and have a single 8" bass driver and don't move a lot of air. They really are a very good match for the room size. They might get a bit lost in a slightly larger room.

 

[andromedaaudio]

What steps will we follow to build an absolutely world-class system in every way— including extreme holography— think Hologram Deck of the Enterprise, ability of the system to convey extreme emotion, accurate timbre, dynamics that you feel in your body, extreme air and articulation of high frequencies without grain or fatigue, in short, the system we all dream of.

Lol
The first step is get cables from SR.

By the way Ted WBF rules imply you disclose your business affiliation in your posts.
With u its obvious but non the less