Most Important When Setting Up A World Class System— Prioritizing Subjective or Objective Criteria?

[Ted Denney III]

That's not the purpose. The idea is to give you an easy to way to make comparisons on measured attributes like frequency response, directivity, distortion, wow and flutter, and on and on.

Rob

Should people set up the room and system to the measurement? Or should measurements be used as a starting point to reach favorable subjective outcomes? Ultimately does subjectivity trump objectivity?

 

[ssfas]

World Class to me is completely meaningless. Word Class to me is code for exclusive as in expensive which again is completely meaningless WRT how well a system is integrated and how it sounds.

It would also split audiophiles between cable-addicts who won't look at anything under 5 figures and cable-deniers.

I'm not quite a cable denier, but don't get too bothered about them. Yet to reach 4 figures.

 

[ssfas]

Should people set up the room and system to the measurement? Or should measurements be used as a starting to reach favorable subjective outcomes?, Ultimately does subjectivity trump objectivity?

Tonal preferences reduce speaker options. Room size reduces the options further. Aesthetics may reduce the field even further. By the time you've measured the room, it's probably too late.

In my smallish room these factors pretty much limited me to two speakers, a 2-way standmount (as @DasguteOhr suggested) and a modest 3-way floorstander.

 

[Ted Denney III]

Tonal preferences reduce speaker options. Room size reduces the options further. Aesthetics may reduce the field even further. By the time you've measured the room, it's probably too late.

In my smallish room these factors pretty much limited me to two speakers, a 2-way standmount (as @DasguteOhr suggested) and a modest 3-way floorstander.

I just want to see where people line up on this, and then I’m going to weigh in with my two cents. And I completely agree with what you’ve just said. 100%.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Responding to the question in the opening post . . .

1) With such postulated well-matched system in a great room that is already sounding great to start with, the owner audiophile may consider himself/herself to be completely done right at that stage. If such audiophile does not enjoy box swapping as a sub-hobby, and just wants to listen to music, and already is feeling very emotionally engaged with the music he/she loves, the audiophile may not consider doing anything else at all. It may not occur to this audiophile that any improvement even is possible to his/her own ears.

It might take a particular experience, say a demo of a new accessory in his/her friend's system at which this audiophile observes a sonic improvement from the addition of the accessory, for this person even to consider the possibility of any improvement in his/her own system.

2) Other than Room EQ Wizard type software and microphones to measure room acoustics in the event of a perceived problem, I put objective measurements to no use in any other context.

If John Atkinson measured my favorite amplifier and told me it was the worst piece of junk that has ever disgraced his test bench -- but I love the sound -- I could not care less what the measurements say.

PS: I am basically describing myself, above. While I am still working on very basic elements of my system, presently auditioning major component pieces, and still working on basic speaker positioning and basic room acoustics, I am not somebody who naturally is big on accessories on my own initiative. But I am open to experimenting. Once my system really is finished (if I live long enough), and somebody in the Orange County Audio Posse is raving about some new device or a tweak, I certainly am open to trying it.

 

[ssfas]

40 square meters of floor space with a ceiling height of 2.5 meters( german standard). The higher the room, the better it sounds. I have listen cheap speakers in such rooms like this that perform well above their price tag.
My cousin had a dream come true when he bought a B&W 800 matrix. In a 30 square meter room the bass would crush you even though it creates a cylinder wave in the bass. Then he moved into an old manor house with 180 cubic meters of volume. He only uses room acoustic elements in the ceiling corners. It sounds so much better that I can't describe it, you have to hear it.
I'm going out on a limb and saying that 70% of the good sound comes from the room.View attachment 145094
so that you can better estimate the size the B&W is 2.2m high with adjustable base plate.

Talk about a contrast in aesthetics. This is the messy side of my room, you should see the tidy side.

 

[Robh3606]

Should people set up the room and system to the measurement? Or should measurements be used as a starting to reach favorable subjective outcomes?, Ultimately does subjectivity trump objectivity?

Both. Lets keep it "simple" and stick to just speakers. I personally don't like speakers that have a more traditional DI and beam in the upper octaves. I prefer Constant Directivity designs. I can look at a DI measurement and gage if it will fit my preference.

Now in a room things get complicated. Measurements as a starting point WRT overall bass response as it is easily measured based on speaker placement and listening position. Now imaging cannot be. It is the complex interaction between the speakers frequency response and directivity, the rooms unique properties and the speaker listening positions. So obviously you need to balance measured with subjective for the best overall compromise.

Which is ultimately a subjective decision that you used tools/measurements to expedite and achieve a positive outcome.

There is no perfect it's all about balanced compromises.

Rob

 

[Al M.]

40 square meters of floor space with a ceiling height of 2.5 meters( german standard). The higher the room, the better it sounds. I have listen cheap speakers in such rooms like this that perform well above their price tag.
My cousin had a dream come true when he bought a B&W 800 matrix. In a 30 square meter room the bass would crush you even though it creates a cylinder wave in the bass. Then he moved into an old manor house with 180 cubic meters of volume. He only uses room acoustic elements in the ceiling corners. It sounds so much better that I can't describe it, you have to hear it.
I'm going out on a limb and saying that 70% of the good sound comes from the room.

Thanks. I fully agree with the last statement.

In optimizing my system, I have spent by far the most time and effort on optimizing my room (with some substantial money invested too) and on speaker positioning (speaker/room interaction). The gear is important, but if your room doesn't play, you simply can't get good sound that does the gear justice.

Unfortunately, while my room is 8.5 feet (2.6 meter) high, it is only 12 feet (3.65 meter) wide and 24 feet (7.3 meter) long. That translates to only 69 cubic meters. The room has a huge bass problem, which fortunately could be tamed with Isothermal TubeTraps (ASC). It also has huge problems with distortion of midrange and highs; the distortions in the highs I have battled successfully with mainly ceiling diffusers (ASC) and large areas of cloth hung from the ceiling. The ceiling is just made from acoustically bad material which I couldn't tell you specifics of, but upon hand clapping a metallic 'zing' sound used to come back -- not good.

In the untreated room, you would have been forced to think that the system suffers from severe "digititis" and from amplifier distortion (clipping) -- system problems. Both are not true, and now the system plays with extraordinary cleanness and very minimal distortion at even high SPL (97 - 100 dBC, to maximal 105 dBC on rare occasions) -- the "system problems" really were just room problems.

The best system sound that I ever heard was in a room 26 feet (7.9 meter) wide, 23 feet (7 meter) long and 10 feet high (3 meter) high -- 166 cubic meter:

Jim's Powerful Sound

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[TonyW]

Talk about a contrast in aesthetics. This is the messy side of my room, you should see the tidy side.
View attachment 145104

I don’t know how you can stand it.
Btw- speaker might sound better w/o a record album propped against the front. Just my opinion.
Also, who sits in the chair by the window? Is your room dual purpose perhaps? ie, a listening configuration and an entertaining configuration?
And it is a very very nice room. How many people walk in and ask you what kind of books are those?

 

[DasguteOhr]

Talk about a contrast in aesthetics. This is the messy side of my room, you should see the tidy side.
View attachment 145104

That's fine as long as you feel comfortable, but in my experience, well-furnished rooms need little to no acoustic aids. Rooms that don't have much in them, e.g. furniture, carpets, usually sound terrible.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Thanks. I fully agree with the last statement.

In optimizing my system, I have spent by far the most time and effort on optimizing my room (with some substantial money invested too) and on speaker positioning (speaker/room interaction). The gear is important, but if your room doesn't play, you simply can't get good sound that does the gear justice.

Unfortunately, while my room is 8.5 feet (2.6 meter) high, it is only 12 feet (3.65 meter) wide and 24 feet (7.3 meter) long. That translates to only 69 cubic meters. The room has a huge bass problem, which fortunately could be tamed with Isothermal TubeTraps (ASC). It also has huge problems with distortion of midrange and highs; the distortions in the highs I have battled successfully with mainly ceiling diffusers (ASC) and large areas of cloth hung from the ceiling. The ceiling is just made from acoustically bad material which I couldn't tell you specifics of, but upon hand clapping a metallic 'zing' sound used to come back -- not good.

In the untreated room, you would have been forced to think that the system suffers from severe "digititis" and from amplifier distortion (clipping) -- system problems. Both are not true, and now the system plays with extraordinary cleanness and very minimal distortion at even high SPL (97 - 100 dBC, to maximal 105 dBC on rare occasions) -- the "system problems" really were just room problems.

The best system sound that I ever heard was in a room 26 feet (7.9 meter) wide, 23 feet (7 meter) long and 10 feet high (3 meter) high -- 166 cubic meter:

Jim's Powerful Sound

www.whatsbestforum.com

I have very few absorbers in the room behind the TV, 10cm thick Basotect, in the front corners 25cm thick Basotect. Behind listing place two acoustic paintings, that's it. Of course the walls and ceiling are treated with 2.5cm thick acoustic plaster a lot of work sounds great.
Room size 7.9m × 5.2m high 2.3m in the basement.
Newer picture today

 

[Kingrex]

I think the OP already has a world class system per his initial description. Ron is correct to say there is nothing else to be done. The OP basic assumption does not say if the system is powered correctly. As in, adequate dedicated circuits. He also does not say the equipment is racked properly. But assuming that is done, and you have functionally correct cables, then you can be done. You have nothing else to add. The stereo is world class to most anyone that walks in the room and likes that type of sound the particular components produce.

The room the OP described is optimum. tuning is up to the owner. How do they want to approach it. But the OP said everything is correct from the start, so lets assume the stereo is tuned. Its perfect as it. Then there is nothing to do accept toss more money at it because one enjoys spending money and listening to gear, not to music.

Maybe a better question is, if an audiophile likes to spend money on equipment and they have no need for anything, what should they waste their money on that will do the least damage to the sound.

 

[ssfas]

Btw- speaker might sound better w/o a record album propped against the front. Just my opinion.
Also, who sits in the chair by the window? Is your room dual purpose perhaps? ie, a listening configuration and an entertaining configuration?
And it is a very very nice room. How many people walk in and ask you what kind of books are those?

The phantom album cover in the previous image was just a reflection. I'm far too tidy to prop an album against a speaker.

My wife often sits in the other chair. If she wants to listen to music, we play it from the ceiling, through 6 Zuma.ai speaker lights. They are seriously good, I have them throughout the house, the lighting as well as the sound. On the sound side, each unit is a 75w self-contained wireless streaming system, Roon Ready, Alexa, everything onboard, arranged in zones and zones can be grouped in Roon. The speaker was designed by Lawrence Dickie of Vivid and B&W 800/Nautilus fame. The sound is immersive thanks to clever dispersion.


The books are on the other side, which is proper tidy.

That's fine as long as you feel comfortable, but in my experience, well-furnished rooms need little to no acoustic aids. Rooms that don't have much in them, e.g. furniture, carpets, usually sound terrible.

The wall in this picture is lined with a product called Acoustiwall. The rest of the room is lined with Soundbloc. There is a diffusion arrangement on the ceiling and no holes in the main ceiling layer, the lighting is in the dropped element. The external windows have -60dB glass that is VERY heavy. The glass doors behind the seating position are no problem at all, sometimes they are open, sometimes not. They are single toughened. When they are open I occasionally get a reflection off double glazing 40 feet further behind - some double glazing is terrible for reflections.

The furnishings and fabrics are, as you suggest, a big contributing factor. I hooked up the stereo when the room was bare and, even with wall treatment, the sound was as hard as nails. You wouldn't last 10 minutes.



Anyone who goes through this process, and I suspect a lot of people here do, appreciate that the room is 50% or more of the sound.

 

[Charles S]

It's an interesting thread. Low end frequency response, sensitivity, and output are prerequisite for me. My system has real output to well below 15HZ and it is very sensitive to subsonic tones. At 16 Hz I estimate I'm about plus 20 dB and have tremendous output, so that at .2 watts a 16 Hz tone is easily audible. At 20 Hz my system will hit 2K watts without strain. Also, upper bass is extremely important. I have the best most robust 100 Hz note I have heard in a system and my boost begins smoothly at about 40 Hz (about +3--4 dB) and gradually increases to probably 6-10 dB at 30-25 Hz increasing to about 20 dB at 16 Hz. Inaudible distortion at plus 100 dB at all frequencies is another prerequisite. Extremely low noise floor is another. I have zero hiss or hum at volume 100% all inputs, fully balanced IC's topline all silver AQ Dragons or Wel Signature. A MC3500 has a S/N ration of 120 dB and unlike all other manufacturers of tube amplifiers, McIntosh guarantees the specifications of their tube amps. I have a zero-noise extraneous environment. I'm in a built-out attic with wall within wall construction, I-Beams galore supporting my floor, 2x6's used in all construction, 40 foot long 15.5-foot-wide A-frame room above a 4-car garage. When the room was being built one of the framers remarked that if he was ever in a tornado, this is the room he'd like to be in. The floor is solid 3/4" hardwood with a gym seal over 3/4" plywood. I keep the rear door open some 40 feet away, so I have no rear wall standing wave. One curtained double window behind my TV. Dedicated noiseless HVAC and heavily treated with passive room treatments by trial and error over many years of experimentation. Behind my sofa I have a skating rink. I'm 76 and certainly one of the best is not the best roller skater at my age in America. I skate with T-Stacks Frank. Beginning while skating backwards off my right foot, I can do six consecutive 360-degree right foot pivots beginning at one end and ending at the other end of the Rivergate rink floor. Nashville/Middle TN is a Mecca for roller skating as well as Atlanta and Detroit. I love to roller skate. It's in my blood like the high end

Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest

Amps: McIntosh: MC3500MKII (2); MC1.25KW (2); MC2.1KW An
Preamp: C-12000 An
Sources: MCD12000 An; MVP881; MVP851; MR87; Marantz 510LV; Lenovo Yoga laptop
Speakers: Wilson Chronosonic XVX
Sub-Woofer: Wilson Thor’s Hammer; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover
Cables Main System AQ: WEL Signature speaker cables; 24’ balanced IC; balanced 1-meter Dragon IC ; WEL Signature digital, Coffee digital coaxial cables; Diamond optical (2); Diamond USB; Dragon (5 HC, 3 source cords); Thunder & Monsoon power cords
Cables Subwoofer System AQ: Redwood speaker cable; Wolf balanced subwoofer IC; Wind balanced IC to ActivXO; Hurricane HC; Firebird HC; Firebird Source; Dragon HC, power cords
Power Conditioners: AQ Niagara 7000; Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines.
Isolation: Wilson Pedestals; Bassocontinuo McIntosh Ultra Feet; X-material plinth
Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD)
Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes.

 

[TonyW]

Yes, the room has everything to do with the performance and sound of your audio system. An overdamped room will make the music sound dull and lifeless- I know from personal experience, and an underdamped room; well worse case it will sound like a band in a High School Gym. Ouch!

I learned about this useful App called Impulso from a Salestech at Hifi Buys last summer. It will measure the decay time of your room. My room measures nearly perfect. Pretty good for me since I set up my room by ear. But before I sound like I’m bragging, it took me over a year and a few reconfigurations to get my room right. It’s a mix of absorption and diffusion from floor to ceiling. That includes wool rugs on the floor and diffusers on the ceiling.

When someone visits my listening room, we will stand in the middle of the room and I will ask them to notice how my voice sounds. It’s like standing outside in still air. My voice, their voice is crisp and clear with no apparent echo at normal talking levels. Even in our family room or kitchen if one listens carefully one can hear a slight echo even at normal talking levels. That’s how I explain the importance of the room.

This app requires precise room dimensions and a bag of balloons. Set up your phone at your listening position. I used an articulating stand. Then pop the ballon at the speaker position. It will show a graph of reverb time vs frequency and gives an average reverb time overall. But the frequency plot is useful for seeing how the bass and the highs are responding in the room. This app has other features too but will require a calibrated mic and some fees will be involved. I think it is one useful tool for helping dial in a room. Below is the reverb response plot for my room.

 

[mtemur]

Yes, the room has everything to do with the performance and sound of your audio system. An overdamped room will make the music sound dull and lifeless- I know from personal experience, and an underdamped room; well worse case it will sound like a band in a High School Gym. Ouch!

I learned about this useful App called Impulso from a Salestech at Hifi Buys last summer. It will measure the decay time of your room. My room measures nearly perfect. Pretty good for me since I set up my room by ear. But before I sound like I’m bragging, it took me over a year and a few reconfigurations to get my room right. It’s a mix of absorption and diffusion from floor to ceiling. That includes wool rugs on the floor and diffusers on the ceiling.

When someone visits my listening room, we will stand in the middle of the room and I will ask them to notice how my voice sounds. It’s like standing outside in still air. My voice, their voice is crisp and clear with no apparent echo at normal talking levels. Even in our family room or kitchen if one listens carefully one can hear a slight echo even at normal talking levels. That’s how I explain the importance of the room.

This app requires precise room dimensions and a bag of balloons. Set up your phone at your listening position. I used an articulating stand. Then pop the ballon at the speaker position. It will show a graph of reverb time vs frequency and gives an average reverb time overall. But the frequency plot is useful for seeing how the bass and the highs are responding in the room. This app has other features too but will require a calibrated mic and some fees will be involved. I think it is one useful tool for helping dial in a room. Below is the reverb response plot for my room.

View attachment 145141

I asked an audiophile friend who is also a PhD in acoustics to measure my room. The RT60 result was very similar to yours, starting at 0.39 seconds and staying between 0.3 and 0.4. I don’t hear any echo either, and the short reverb time in the bass makes it easier to hear differences.

 

[Lee]

I think it's both based on my learning from @Jim Smith

For example, it's optimal to use the RTA app to set the listening chair based on bass response. Then use the 83% Rule to set speakers and then subjective listening to refine the speaker setup.

 

[Charles S]

I will attach some pics of my room. That's me and Mike, a Rivergate manager skating on my rink before the Halloween Party. I went as Einstein.

 

[Lee]

I will attach some pics of my room. That's me and Mike, a Rivergate manager skating on my rink before the Halloween Party. I went as Einstein.

I don't think you have enough amplifiers.

 

[Charles S]

I have looked up and read a little about Synergistic Research. I can understand why Ted might have begun this thread. Now this is just fun, not meant to be dogmatic, because there is no reasonable answer to his posit. If I were going for a world class no holds barred system, his company might be the one I would choose for my wires. So far, I have only read about his power, i.e., cords and conditioners. I will have multiple powerful mono amplifiers in my system each needing a dedicated 20-amp line and his huge power cell is a bit too large and expensive to have multiple ones, so I'm assuming the SRX Power Cell for all sources (my Niagara 7000 equivalent), and then a smaller power cell for each amp. I would want to work with his dealer to help me with this. I will choose my speaker cables next. In my system one Niagara 5000 seems to be able to turn one dedicated 20-amp line into two and it's small and compact, weighing only 38 pounds, but doesn't seem nearly as sophisticated as his gear, which is incredible, being handmade in CA, and point to point wired.

Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest

Amps: McIntosh: MC3500MKII (2); MC1.25KW (2); MC2.1KW An
Preamp: C-12000 An
Sources: MCD12000 An; MVP881; MVP851; MR87; Marantz 510LV; Lenovo Yoga laptop
Speakers: Wilson Chronosonic XVX
Sub-Woofer: Wilson Thor’s Hammer; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover
Cables Main System AQ: WEL Signature speaker cables; 24’ balanced IC; balanced 1-meter Dragon IC ; WEL Signature digital, Coffee digital coaxial cables; Diamond optical (2); Diamond USB; Dragon (5 HC, 3 source cords); Thunder & Monsoon power cords
Cables Subwoofer System AQ: Redwood speaker cable; Wolf balanced subwoofer IC; Wind balanced IC to ActivXO; Hurricane HC; Firebird HC; Firebird Source; Dragon HC, power cords
Power Conditioners: AQ Niagara 7000; Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines.
Isolation: Wilson Pedestals; Bassocontinuo McIntosh Ultra Feet; X-material plinth
Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD)
Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes