MSB Select DAC II. The way every DAC on the planet should be built.

[Blizzard]

Bliz, I have never heard of a test that measures caps and resistors and coils for distortion or any other parameter that would affect sound. Please post a link to such tests. I do believe they all sound different and different ones have lower inductance, dielectric absorption and ESR.....but these things have never been proven to make a quantifiable sonic difference. Two caps might both have the same low ESR but sound way different. In fact, I have found some of the low ERS caps to sound inferior. What measurements are you talking about?

By the Way, the outside foil of a foil cap when positioned so its to ground or output sounds best. Coils sound best when you enter into the center of the coil and exit the outside. These things are not measureable. All wire is directional.....it will sound better one way or the other....again not measureable.

This is the best info I have. However I was reading about other measurement techniques somewhere before. Everything is probably measurable, if we had the equipment to measure it, and knew what to measure for.

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download/ClarityCap_Technical_Report.pdf


Here's Lukasz's take on cap differences:

http://lampizator.eu/UPGRADE/CAPACITORS/capacitors.html

 

[Ric Schultz]

Yes, I had seen the Clarity Cap resonance test. One test done by one manufacturer. However, most do not feel their caps are the best. Basically, there is no test that shows you how a cap, resistor, inductor, or wire sounds. You must listen.

Peter Moncrief of International Audio Review (maker of Wonder/Infinity/Dynamicap/Stealth caps, Wonder wire, Wonder Solder, etc) did an electrical test on preamps where he used a bell ting as the measurement source and used a digital storage scope to capture the bell ting and compare. His findings were that the more transparent sounding preamp also had the most wiggles/information on the bell ting (he showed pictures in his mag). He said this proved Julian Hirsch wrong....you could indeed measure the sonic difference between components. I asked Peter if you could do this with a single component (caps, resistors, etc.). He said NO. You have to have a bunch of things in the signal path (all the things in a preamp...jacks, wire, resistors, power supply parts, circuits, caps, etc.) to see the difference on a scope.

Audio is really subtle....we just have to listen. And the more I listen, the more I know everything makes a sonic difference. This is Art and Science.

 

[Blizzard]

Yes, I had seen the Clarity Cap resonance test. One test done by one manufacturer. However, most do not feel their caps are the best. Basically, there is no test that shows you how a cap, resistor, inductor, or wire sounds. You must listen.

Peter Moncrief of International Audio Review (maker of Wonder/Infinity/Dynamicap/Stealth caps, Wonder wire, Wonder Solder, etc) did an electrical test on preamps where he used a bell ting as the measurement source and used a digital storage scope to capture the bell ting and compare. His findings were that the more transparent sounding preamp also had the most wiggles/information on the bell ting (he showed pictures in his mag). He said this proved Julian Hirsch wrong....you could indeed measure the sonic difference between components. I asked Peter if you could do this with a single component (caps, resistors, etc.). He said NO. You have to have a bunch of things in the signal path (all the things in a preamp...jacks, wire, resistors, power supply parts, circuits, caps, etc.) to see the difference on a scope.

Audio is really subtle....we just have to listen. And the more I listen, the more I know everything makes a sonic difference. This is Art and Science.

I know. I have a bin full of caps, coils and resistors that weighs over 200lbs. It's been 20 years since I discovered first hand that these components make an audible difference. I couldn't care less how they measure.

What really matters is how the end product the components are going in, measures and sounds at the end of the day.

 

[TBone]

Lampi's modding and archiving of many older and different type cd players; "snipping" dac outputs, compared to bypassing the stock output stage, is classic DIY reading, but even he'd state that you simply can't just replace a bunch of caps/coils/resistors with more expensive "superior" equivalents and expect by default better performance. This is especially true with speaker xovers "modifications" ... I've seen/heard this "carpet bombing" methodology fail on too many occasions.

The humble cap experiences w/ ratings, also a fine read, has been around forever.

 

[Blizzard]

Lampi's modding and archiving of many older and different type cd players; "snipping" dac outputs, compared to bypassing the stock output stage, is classic DIY reading, but even he'd state that you simply can't just replace a bunch of caps/coils/resistors with more expensive "superior" equivalents and expect by default better performance. This is especially true with speaker xovers "modifications" ... I've seen/heard this "carpet bombing" methodology fail on too many occasions.

The humble cap experiences w/ ratings, also a fine read, has been around forever.

Passive xover networks aren't rocket science. There would be absolutely no drawbacks to switching those cheap Bennic caps, coils and resistors with superior ones. If they were already using very good components, in a special blend to specifically "voice" the speakers to a certain sound profile that's a different story. But nobody uses Bennic components to achieve this. They are simply used to lower the BOM, and increase net profit.

In depth market research has proven it's much more beneficial to the bottom line, to allocate the money towards marketing and advertising, rather than superior xover components. After all, if nobody knows about the product, it doesn't matter how good it is.


A great example of a Xover network I wouldn't mess with can be found here:


http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Illuminator-5.htm

 

[wisnon]

Well I guess Wisnon has some work to do then

Har, har. Funny.
I have my forums and not looking for anymore. I leave that to you. I see they chased you off CA???

 

[TBone]

well, I guess one could argue that "rocket science" isn't exactly rocket science anymore ...

 

[wisnon]

Lampizator Golden Gate owners who have upgraded from lower end models within the brand will atest as to what better parts can do to sound quality.

Its also some circuit mods and new parts like chokes in new places...

 

[Blizzard]

Har, har. Funny.
I have my forums and not looking for anymore. I leave that to you. I see they chased you off CA???

Yeah you reported me too many times.

 

[TBone]

>>A great example of a Xover network I wouldn't mess with can be found here:<<

Well thx for that ... although I've modified xovers well into 3 decades, no sense adding any of those experiences within this context ... only to add ... best wishes to any such xover / speaker that meets your special criteria, especially those that won't require you "messing" with it ...

 

[Blizzard]

>>A great example of a Xover network I wouldn't mess with can be found here:<<

Well thx for that ... although I've modified xovers well into 3 decades, no sense adding any of those experiences within this context ... only to add ... best wishes to any such xover / speaker that meets your special criteria, especially those that won't require you "messing" with it ...

Thanks. My passive days are over anyways. Might do the odd 1 off here and there to burn up my driver inventory though.

 

[wisnon]

Yeah you reported me too many times.

No way, I was one of the few that showed any tolerance to you. You are way worse here,. LoL

I would never advocate a banning for anyone for relatively trivial matters.

Its not that serious Blizz!

 

[the sound of Tao]

Yes, I had seen the Clarity Cap resonance test. One test done by one manufacturer. However, most do not feel their caps are the best. Basically, there is no test that shows you how a cap, resistor, inductor, or wire sounds. You must listen.

Peter Moncrief of International Audio Review (maker of Wonder/Infinity/Dynamicap/Stealth caps, Wonder wire, Wonder Solder, etc) did an electrical test on preamps where he used a bell ting as the measurement source and used a digital storage scope to capture the bell ting and compare. His findings were that the more transparent sounding preamp also had the most wiggles/information on the bell ting (he showed pictures in his mag). He said this proved Julian Hirsch wrong....you could indeed measure the sonic difference between components. I asked Peter if you could do this with a single component (caps, resistors, etc.). He said NO. You have to have a bunch of things in the signal path (all the things in a preamp...jacks, wire, resistors, power supply parts, circuits, caps, etc.) to see the difference on a scope.

Audio is really subtle....we just have to listen. And the more I listen, the more I know everything makes a sonic difference. This is Art and Science.

Great observation Ric, the notion that simply swapping out any part within a component or any component within a system with a better performing or measuring part or component is a magical guarantee of a universal improvement within the system is naive to say the least... there is much more going on within the circuit than just linear summative value. But it is the kind of thing many of us assume early in our learning when it's easy to have lots of theories but little real experience. No big thing, most of us tend to go through a stage of excitement when we think that we have all the answers, then thankfully experience comes along and teaches us better.

Mostly long experience teaches us that everything needs to be evaluated within context and that listening and characterising differences is much more real and valuable to others than just assuming that what you prefer in some limited circumstance is therefore universally best in every circumstance.

 

[Blizzard]

Great observation Ric, the notion that simply swapping out any part within a component or any component within a system with a better performing or measuring part or component is a magical guarantee of a universal improvement within the system is naive to say the least... there is much more going on within the circuit than just linear summative value. But it is the kind of thing many of us assume early in our learning when it's easy to have lots of theories but little real experience. No big thing, most of us tend to go through a stage of excitement when we think that we have all the answers, then thankfully experience comes along and teaches us better.

Mostly long experience teaches us that everything needs to be evaluated within context and that listening and characterising differences is much more real and valuable to others than just assuming that what you prefer in some limited circumstance is therefore universally best in every circumstance.

Yes this is why subjective tests are used to evaluate resistors, caps and coils. But there is cases where components known to be weak are chosen specifically for low cost and not sound. Replacing these components with superior alternatives that are known to be superior sounding subjectively, and are identical values, will always sound better. This is exactly what Ric does. The designers of the products also know this. But they have a price/profit/performance target to reach, and this is #1, everything else is secondary.

This is why mods can be so cost effective. Because your not paying the BOM x5-6+ you do when the superior components are used from the factory.

 

[Ric Schultz]

Most of the time putting known better sounding parts in works. However, this game is an art. For instance, if the component is too rich sounding then putting in a neutral part could then keep it too rich....so, sometimes you use parts with different flavors to "tune" a particular component. Sometimes these "tuning" parts are not as transparent as is possible but is what is needed to get a neutral response. At any particular level of transparency there are still different flavors of parts. Never found a truly "transparent" part or wire or anything. Everything has a sound. The best part is no part. KISS. In fact, all connectors screw up the sound......another reason "not" to have plug in upgradable boards. I hardwire as much as possible and to the extent that it makes sense. My upcoming NOS R2R DAC will be fully hardwired. Upgrades via hardwiring.

 

[Chris F]

Way late to the thread but Schiit does the "modular upgradable" thing with their DACs at extremely affordable price points and with great sound. So far they have followed through with both analog output stage upgrades, USB input upgrades and most importantly multibit digital section upgrades for very reasonable prices.

I feel this method of doing things provides very high value to the end consumer. Should Analog Devices or another company release a R2R chip superior to AD5791 I am extremely confident Mike Moffat & friends will take it and release an upgrade board for Yggdrasil.

 

[Blizzard]

Way late to the thread but Schiit does the "modular upgradable" thing with their DACs at extremely affordable price points and with great sound. So far they have followed through with both analog output stage upgrades, USB input upgrades and most importantly multibit digital section upgrades for very reasonable prices.

I feel this method of doing things provides very high value to the end consumer. Should Analog Devices or another company release a R2R chip superior to AD5791 I am extremely confident Mike Moffat & friends will take it and release an upgrade board for Yggdrasil.

That's good to hear. With forward thinkers like Mike Moffat & friends in the industry, anyone who doesn't adopt this approach will have to solely rely on consumer ignorance to get by.

 

[Ric Schultz]

That's good to hear. With forward thinkers like Mike Moffat & friends in the industry, anyone who doesn't adopt this approach will have to solely rely on consumer ignorance to get by.

Customer ignorance? I repeat, for those hard of hearing.....What if your "upgradable DAC" does not compete with someone elses DAC and you can afford the other DAC? Are you going to wait for your manufacturer to release an update so it will compete just so you can keep your current DAC?.....or are you going to buy the better sounding DAC and have better sound?

I really like the upgradable factor at the low end of the market. The $70 upgrade to the Schiit Bifrost that has the new 4490 DAC chip on it is a real win for those on super tight budgets....but this is the "What's Best Forum". Check this out again: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=icm8ojuu9fpe4n6k814jpbektdcpnkv5&topic=138741.0

The person who posted had an "upgradable Yggy" DAC. He found the spanking brand new DHT R2R DAC better in every way. He sold the Yggy and bought the $4800 DHT. Yes, twice the money....but a better DAC. Should he instead wait for Schiit to update the Yggy so it will compete? Will it ever compete? I doubt it.

Analog Devices may never release a "better" DAC than the ones they have....they have little call for the ones they produce. The DAC chip is only one small part of the sound of a DAC....you could make the Yggy sound way way better with mods. My simple DIY mods already prove this.

Do you want to keep the same toy or have the best sound? Maybe the MSB will do both. However, maybe Mike's chipless DAC system with upsampling to double speed DSD will sound better and cost nothing compared to the "upgradable" MSB. Spend your money wisely.....times they are a changin'

With technology changing so fast why would you care if your DAC is upgradable when another manufacturer could trounce your upgradable DAC any day with one that cost way less?!?

 

[Blizzard]

Customer ignorance? I repeat, for those hard of hearing.....What if your "upgradable DAC" does not compete with someone elses DAC and you can afford the other DAC? Are you going to wait for your manufacturer to release an update so it will compete just so you can keep your current DAC?.....or are you going to buy the better sounding DAC and have better sound?

I really like the upgradable factor at the low end of the market. The $70 upgrade to the Schiit Bifrost that has the new 4490 DAC chip on it is a real win for those on super tight budgets....but this is the "What's Best Forum". Check this out again: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=icm8ojuu9fpe4n6k814jpbektdcpnkv5&topic=138741.0

The person who posted had an "upgradable Yggy" DAC. He found the spanking brand new DHT R2R DAC better in every way. He sold the Yggy and bought the $4800 DHT. Yes, twice the money....but a better DAC. Should he instead wait for Schiit to update the Yggy so it will compete? Will it ever compete? I doubt it.

Analog Devices may never release a "better" DAC than the ones they have....they have little call for the ones they produce. The DAC chip is only one small part of the sound of a DAC....you could make the Yggy sound way way better with mods. My simple DIY mods already prove this.

Do you want to keep the same toy or have the best sound? Maybe the MSB will do both. However, maybe Mike's chipless DAC system with upsampling to double speed DSD will sound better and cost nothing compared to the "upgradable" MSB. Spend your money wisely.....times they are a changin'

With technology changing so fast why would you care if your DAC is upgradable when another manufacturer could trounce your upgradable DAC any day with one that cost way less?!?

Hasn't been the case for the Resonessence Mirus after 3 years. And it will be a game changer again once it has the new gen ESS chip retrofit board before the competition has a chance to build their version's I suppose you must choose your brands wisely.

I can't see software upgradable chipless DSD 1024 compatible DAC's going obsolete anytime soon either

 

[prerich]

For $90,000 they should send you the upgraded parts for free if upgrades are available within the first few years after purchasing it.

Agreed!!! Bravo Zulu!!!!!!!