MSB Select II arrival

[KostasP.]

and honestly; for me personally the only test that matters to me is the real one; how does it stack up against the truly big guns?.......my vinyl and tape. none of those other digital choices matter.

Hello Mike,

I don’t know to what extent you are willing to accept antipodean advice, but for what it may be worth to you, here it is.

If you wish to test the capabilities of the SELECT II directly with the analogue rig, the only truly conclusive comparison method is to record your analogue source and to play it back through the DAC. My very strong (but not unequivocal) suspicion is that the two will be indistinguishable. This was the case with my own T+A PDP 3000 HV and my analogue source (vinyl).

Of course, comparing different media – CD, SACD, HR files – of the same music may give you some conclusive results, only if you are privy to the processing methods and details employed in the production of the media which can make the definitive difference.

Regardless, in my view, beyond a certain threshold of attained quality, the two "antagonists" (analogue\digital) can these days co-exist and complement each other (and why not complimenting each other from time to time) harmoniously side by side. Once pre-conceptions, stereotyping about technologies and topologies and expectation bias are removed, the stark reality renders these pre-conceptions futile.

I also don’t know to what extent your Gallic roots determine your musical choices but I very strongly recommend Brigitte Fontaine’s ‘’Comme a la Radio’’ (SARAVAH label). It is innovative, avant-garde for the period, difficult to pigeon-hole. It is a "pure’’, raw, uncontrived production, a little hotly mastered; extremely vivid with very natural tonal\timbral textures and an overall bitter-sweet psyche permeating the flesh (melody) and the bones (rhythm) of the music, with incredibly varied and unexpected melodic twists and turns. This music is not a secure "ocean liner’’ but a fragile "wooden little boat’’ that takes you through a journey of wonderfully enjoyable musical risks.

I wish you continuous enjoyment, regardless of my advices. Afterall, every audiophile has a bin nearby!

Cheers and, as we say in Greek : kaloriziko! Loosely translated: may it give you enduring good luck! Kostas.

PS: There are several remastered versions but, if you want to avoid getting a copy of the 2nd or 3rd generation (digital) master, I suggest that you get the 1992 CD from the original french Saravah label. Note that the original vinyl does not contain the last two tracks\gems but some recently remastered vinyls do. I have not compared these versions, so please take my caution with some reservation.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hello Mike,

I don’t know to what extent you are willing to accept antipodean advice, but for what it may be worth to you, here it is.

If you wish to test the capabilities of the SELECT II directly with the analogue rig, the only truly conclusive comparison method is to record your analogue source and to play it back through the DAC. My very strong (but not unequivocal) suspicion is that the two will be indistinguishable. This was the case with my own T+A PDP 3000 HV and my analogue source (vinyl).

Of course, comparing different media – CD, SACD, HR files – of the same music may give you some conclusive results, only if you are privy to the processing methods and details employed in the production of the media which can make the definitive difference.

Regardless, in my view, beyond a certain threshold of attained quality, the two "antagonists" (analogue\digital) can these days co-exist and complement each other (and why not complimenting each other from time to time) harmoniously side by side. Once pre-conceptions, stereotyping about technologies and topologies and expectation bias are removed, the stark reality renders these pre-conceptions futile.

I also don’t know to what extent your Gallic roots determine your musical choices but I very strongly recommend Brigitte Fontaine’s ‘’Comme a la Radio’’ (SARAVAH label). It is innovative, avant-garde for the period, difficult to pigeon-hole. It is a "pure’’, raw, uncontrived production, a little hotly mastered; extremely vivid with very natural tonal\timbral textures and an overall bitter-sweet psyche permeating the flesh (melody) and the bones (rhythm) of the music, with incredibly varied and unexpected melodic twists and turns. This music is not a secure "ocean liner’’ but a fragile "wooden little boat’’ that takes you through a journey of wonderfully enjoyable musical risks.

I wish you continuous enjoyment, regardless of my advices. Afterall, every audiophile has a bin nearby!

Cheers and, as we say in Greek : kaloriziko! Loosely translated: may it give you enduring good luck! Kostas.

PS: There are several remastered versions but, if you want to avoid getting a copy of the 2nd or 3rd generation (digital) master, I suggest that you get the 1992 CD from the original french Saravah label. Note that the original vinyl does not contain the last two tracks\gems but some recently remastered vinyls do. I have not compared these versions, so please take my caution with some reservation.

hi Kostas,

thank you for the advice, and the recommendations for the music. my French Canadian grandfather, and Croatian grandmother (on my father's side) did not impart me any musical tastes I perceive. and my German grandfather, and Scotch-English grandmother on my mother's side were also without direct influence. so I'm a boat adrift to fend for myself to find my own musical dna.

however; I do have an affinity for Debussy it seems......so there you go. but also enjoy Beethoven, Mozart, and LZ and others so......

as far as digital sourced from my analog; I have hundreds, possibly more than 500 2xdsd rips of my vinyl and tapes. so that one is easy, I have done it already.....advantage to the analog so far. however; my own perspective is a better test is to use a few of the recordings I have where both a digital and analog master were made from the same mic feed and so each has the benefit of being mastered natively. specifically there are a few Reference Recordings with this situation even including the master tape and 176/24 source master file. so this would be my choice for the ultimate test. I have done this comparison a few times in the past with my other digital.....and game, set, match to the analog side. I expect this time it will be much closer and maybe more differences than clear advantages.

but this is before I get everything optimized in terms of my digital interface, I still have to determine whether i'll be using USB from the SGM, or a new Ethernet renderer from MSB, and then need to optimize whichever process with the right cable. then I will do the comparison with the analog sources.

and I will seek out that recording and report back, thank you.

cheers,

Mike

 

[microstrip]

(...) If you wish to test the capabilities of the SELECT II directly with the analogue rig, the only truly conclusive comparison method is to record your analogue source and to play it back through the DAC. My very strong (but not unequivocal) suspicion is that the two will be indistinguishable. This was the case with my own T+A PDP 3000 HV and my analogue source (vinyl).(...)

This type of test assumes that analog tape betters digital in all aspects - something that IMHO we can not take as true if we really want to test a DAC.

Considering Mike listens a lot of time and has large experience, I think he does not need direct comparisons. He should listen to a good sample of his best tapes or vinyl, and then do the same for the best of his digital recordings, and then report to us ...

Recently when listening to some digital recordings I was aware that they have characteristics that I had never seen in analog - but I can not discard the possibility that it is just because I do not have access to quality tapes of equivalent material. I have often read that SOTA digital recording equipment needs a new way of approaching recording, not just different knobs, and specially great expertise. The words of Manuel Mohino, Grammy 2011 for Best Small Performance Ensemble: AliaVox's Dinastia Borgia conducted by Jordi Savall and performed by Hespèrion XXI & La Capella Reial de Catalunya are a good example of it:

"This Grammy is above all a reward for the work of the artists who have interpreted the beautiful music of these three discs. I thank them for the confidence they show me when I make their recordings, editing and mastering. To do this, I have been using Pyramix for a long time because it is the only system which, by its qualities, allows me to concentrate on the musicians and their music; I can do an artistic work even if in technically very complex projects."

It is known that the human and material conditions that created the top great analog recordings of the past will never be reproduced, IMHO no direct comparison of the two media will ever be possible. But is great to have opinions of people who own top equipment playing both media - I only ask them to name as much as possible the recordings they are using, even at the risk of creating envy in WBF members!

And yes, DXD can sound great!

 

[asiufy]

I don't agree that comparing vinyl rips to the actual vinyl being played is a good test. At the end of the day, you're really judging the quality of the ADC that was used to make the rip in the first place, and not only the DAC that's reproducing it.

Mike's idea, while much more sound, is also prone to be affected by the ADC in the chain, or in the case of a pure digital recording, the digital recorder itself.

I think comparisons must be made at their best. Take the best piece of vinyl and listen to it. How does it sound to you? And then do the same with digital, take some of the best sounding digital and assess that. Then move on to the NOT QUITE best sounding vinyl and digital, which, in most collections, will be 80% of the music you own. The magic of the SELECT II is that it makes that 80% more like your best 20% than anything else out there.

To me, the SELECT II really makes average digital sound incredible, while I haven't found an analog rig that makes average vinyl sound just as incredible.

 

[Priaptor]

I don't agree that comparing vinyl rips to the actual vinyl being played is a good test. At the end of the day, you're really judging the quality of the ADC that was used to make the rip in the first place, and not only the DAC that's reproducing it.

Mike's idea, while much more sound, is also prone to be affected by the ADC in the chain, or in the case of a pure digital recording, the digital recorder itself.

I think comparisons must be made at their best. Take the best piece of vinyl and listen to it. How does it sound to you? And then do the same with digital, take some of the best sounding digital and assess that. Then move on to the NOT QUITE best sounding vinyl and digital, which, in most collections, will be 80% of the music you own. The magic of the SELECT II is that it makes that 80% more like your best 20% than anything else out there.

To me, the SELECT II really makes average digital sound incredible, while I haven't found an analog rig that makes average vinyl sound just as incredible.

Totally agree with your opinion about comparisons between the three media. The unfortunate thing is many mainstream digital recordings suck compared to the detail and precision that goes into vinyl and tapes.

On the other hand as you point out the Select makes what we all thought were poorly recorded digital sound incredibly good, of course excepting for really crappy recordings with low DR, which I think is a testament to MSB getting Redbook so good.

Have you tried the Select II direct into a GS150? While there are many varying opinions on this, I have found the GS150 to be the best ARC component I have ever owned. I have owned Ref250s, REF75, Ref150, ref5 and now the Ref10. Of course the caveat for me are the Nola Speakers which literally soak up ARC gear and were sounded with the same.

I know you said many of your customers go direct from the Select II and also really like the Ref10 (obviously an awesome preamp which I too love) but on my setup I am finding bypassing the Ref10 and going direct is on another level of detail, coherence and presentation

On another issue which Mike is being used as the "proverbial guinea" pig for SGM (mean this in an affectionate way), I have been experimenting with the QUAD USB module while using the microRendu as a Roon endpoint, HQPlayer NAA and DLNA mode. My initial impressions of the Select II was running the microRendu as a Roon Endpoint. I am now leaning HEAVILY to using my high end computer i7 6700k to run HQPlayer with NO filters or dithering and the microRendu as an HQPlayer NAA. Been doing this for the last day and close to declaring it the winner by a significant margin which IMHO speaks well for the current direction Mike is taking with the SGM.

While I will await my final declaration of the "winner" until I hear the new renderer, given the results I am getting using HQPlayer straight from my i7 6700k computer without any filter/dither via USB from the microRendu I can't imagine the renderer as a Roon Endpoint will outclass Mike's setup with the superior SGM.

While I will await the renderer and hopefully my "preconceived bias" will allow me to remain objective upon hearing it, what I am getting now comparing HQPlayer versus Roon Endpoint has me thinking I may be in touch with Ed soon!

Howie

 

[PeterA]

It is known that the human and material conditions that created the top great analog recordings of the past will never be reproduced, IMHO no direct comparison of the two media will ever be possible. But is great to have opinions of people who own top equipment playing both media - I only ask them to name as much as possible the recordings they are using, even at the risk of creating envy in WBF members!

I agree. Fellow member Madfloyd also has top quality analog and digital source components: Kronor Pro and new power supply with ZYX Premium cartridge/Ortofon A95 and the dCS Vivaldi DAC and upsampler. A year or so ago I did a direct comparison between his Kronos and NADAC listening to a DSD recording of the Janaki String Trio and a 45 RPM LP of the same recording. I preferred the analog. The Vivaldi sounds better in his system but I have not yet directly compared it to his Kronos.

 

[asiufy]

Have you tried the Select II direct into a GS150? While there are many varying opinions on this, I have found the GS150 to be the best ARC component I have ever owned. I have owned Ref250s, REF75, Ref150, ref5 and now the Ref10. Of course the caveat for me are the Nola Speakers which literally soak up ARC gear and were sounded with the same.

I know you said many of your customers go direct from the Select II and also really like the Ref10 (obviously an awesome preamp which I too love) but on my setup I am finding bypassing the Ref10 and going direct is on another level of detail, coherence and presentation

Howie,

Even thought at this point you've more experience with ARC products than I do I'd also say the GS150 is the all-around best ARC product I've heard this far. The preamps are special too, each with its character, but the GS150 flat out rocks on the YGs, and that's something I was NOT expecting!

We have the MSB Reference coming to us in a few, and possibly a SELECT II as well, and I'll definitely try them sans preamp, directly on the GS150 (and on the D'Agostinos too).

I've said this all along that the MSB is the only DAC I've heard where the built-in preamp is not only good, but actually beats stand-alone preamps. And not just at the high-end of the product line, since even the Analog DAC has a very good little preamp inside!

So, don't feel bad about it It's been my experience all along that, while sometimes desirable for specific characteristics of the preamp (and what they add to the system), the MSBs will do great directly to amps, in that "less is more" kind of way.

On another issue which Mike is being used as the "proverbial guinea" pig for SGM (mean this in an affectionate way), I have been experimenting with the QUAD USB module while using the microRendu as a Roon endpoint, HQPlayer NAA and DLNA mode. My initial impressions of the Select II was running the microRendu as a Roon Endpoint. I am now leaning HEAVILY to using my high end computer i7 6700k to run HQPlayer with NO filters or dithering and the microRendu as an HQPlayer NAA. Been doing this for the last day and close to declaring it the winner by a significant margin which IMHO speaks well for the current direction Mike is taking with the SGM.

While I will await my final declaration of the "winner" until I hear the new renderer, given the results I am getting using HQPlayer straight from my i7 6700k computer without any filter/dither via USB from the microRendu I can't imagine the renderer as a Roon Endpoint will outclass Mike's setup with the superior SGM.

While I will await the renderer and hopefully my "preconceived bias" will allow me to remain objective upon hearing it, what I am getting now comparing HQPlayer versus Roon Endpoint has me thinking I may be in touch with Ed soon!

Howie

Well, being a dealer for SGM, I will have to reach out to Ed as well, and see what they've been toying with at Mike's, as I want to try that on our SGM as well once the MSBs land back here!



cheers,
alex

 

[Legolas]

Howie,

I've said this all along that the MSB is the only DAC I've heard where the built-in preamp is not only good, but actually beats stand-alone preamps. And not just at the high-end of the product line, since even the Analog DAC has a very good little preamp inside!
alex

I believe the Select II (as the Total DAC 12) has enough gain to drive the output 'without' a line stage or pre-amplifier built in. I am thinking this is why there is so little 'loss' as wire with gain effect. BUT it may be system dependent as in many cases of using a passive preamplifier from another sources, as the input impedance on the power amp needs to be both fairly high (50K is good) enough level from the DAC output, and a high enough input sensitively and also gain in the power amp stages to achieve rated output. Some leeway is possible if you run power amplifiers with sensitive speakers, less if they dip below 90dB I would think. I remember my previous M5 preamplifier output 30V at full volume, not that you would do that, but a puny 2V max line out from a typical DAC and you can see why it may cause issues. DACs that have a transformer coupling at the output will probably manage this better than opp amp types of stages or a basic gain stage.

Also the output impedance from the DAC line stage or line out, needs to be as low as possible. 300 ohms is good or less, 2K+ is going to lead to problems in many cases. Loss of bass and weight and an airy floaty sound signature are typical signs of an impedance mismatch or a line stage that is not up to the task of driving the next stage device.

 

[Legolas]

first of all, congrats on the DAC!

as for HQPlayer, I use it with my TotalDAC D1-Dual (upgrade to D1-six coming in august!!!) and microRendu and it makes a significant difference with bit-perfect, no upscaling or dither.
i believe that this is from moving the renderer processing from the microRendu to the HQPlayer pc, but that is an engineering guess on my part.
less processing in the microRendu --> better sound (the working hypothesis)

enjoy!

I thought the MicroRendu was just changing the data format from Ethernet to USB to then enter the DAC (and avoid noise from the USB port in the PC)?

My tests proved to me moving away from USB to Ethernet was better, less digital hash and more pure music, super smooth. Actually some of the detail I thought I was perceiving with USB was in fact exaggerated leading edges. Now they are gone, I can hear more detail and micro detail (plankton) but it sounds much more natural. I can also listen at much higher volumes (If I choose) with zero fatigue which is a good sign for digital.

 

[Priaptor]

I thought the MicroRendu was just changing the data format from Ethernet to USB to then enter the DAC (and avoid noise from the USB port in the PC)?

My tests proved to me moving away from USB to Ethernet was better, less digital hash and more pure music, super smooth. Actually some of the detail I thought I was perceiving with USB was in fact exaggerated leading edges. Now they are gone, I can hear more detail and micro detail (plankton) but it sounds much more natural. I can also listen at much higher volumes (If I choose) with zero fatigue which is a good sign for digital.

Both Mike and I are awaiting the release of the new MSB renderer to compare the USB vs. Ethernet. Does your DAC have a built in renderer taking Ethernet?

As I said in my prior posts, I was using HQPlayer for my headphone system to upsample everything to 512 DSD to my T&A and tried it without any upsampling or filters to the Select and found it superior to either JRiver or Roon. I am trying to get in touch with Vince from MSB to hopefully get them to include HQPlayer NAA on their Ethernet renderer as without it, I am not sure their Ethernet solution will outperform their USB solution as Roon-->HQPlayer (unfiltered and no upsampling)-->Select II is vastly superior to using the microRendu in either DLNA or Roon Endpoint.

SGM takes the same approach with software using Roon for database functions and HQPlayer as a player but with their approach obviously there is no need for the microRendu given their superior hardware compared to an off the shelf computer.

I look forward to the renderer to see which I prefer.

As to the pre stage of the Select II, it is vastly better than any I have used in any DAC I have tried. It is also not cheap so I would hope it would perform well but I was not expecting the results I am getting given the performance of the REF10 I was using. With the Diamond Plus IV and V following, for me, the REF10 performed much better than either of the pre stages of the MSB. The Select II is a different beast and for me, especially as a digital only person, there is no going back; at least with the combination I am using with the ARC GS150 and Nola Concert Grand Golds. Lastly, I really haven't yet optimized my HQPlayer setup which I plan on doing and may very well try the SGM after hearing what the renderer is capable of IF I think the USB solution is better.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

a data point......

the last 2 nights I've had the pleasure of hosting a 'vinyl loving' WBF member and his lovely wife from out-of-country and it's been a mostly vinyl feast and a few tapes.

this is just a 'data point' but it's clear that the vinyl just goes somewhere even the Select II cannot touch. but I am reacting with my feelings to the degree of deep dive into musical energy and the pull I experienced with these fellow music lovers. and did absolutely zero comparisons. there were quite a few 'religious' moments of musical joy abounding.

I know this feedback does little to define what the Select II is doing.......and it does not diminish in any way my awe toward the Select II. only wanted to feed the beast here of information to mull over.

 

[es347]

Mike is it true that this DAC has an msrp of $90K?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike is it true that this DAC has an msrp of $90K?

of course not.

it's only $84,500 list price.

it was listed for $89,500 until 6 months ago when it was reduced.

 

[Al M.]

a data point......

the last 2 nights I've had the pleasure of hosting a 'vinyl loving' WBF member and his lovely wife from out-of-country and it's been a mostly vinyl feast and a few tapes.

this is just a 'data point' but it's clear that the vinyl just goes somewhere even the Select II cannot touch. but I am reacting with my feelings to the degree of deep dive into musical energy and the pull I experienced with these fellow music lovers. and did absolutely zero comparisons. there were quite a few 'religious' moments of musical joy abounding.

"the vinyl just goes somewhere even the Select II cannot touch"

To which my reaction is: of course. It is technically impossible for digital to sound the same as vinyl.

All that counts for me is how close digital can bring me to the experience of (unamplified) live music. The answer for me is: quite close. That's all I'm asking for.

(Note: I said intentionally 'experience', not 'sound'.)

 

[Priaptor]

of course not.

it's only $84,500 list price.

it was listed for $89,500 until 6 months ago when it was reduced.

But of course that doesn't take into account the 10K upgrade to the Femto 33 clock

 

[PeterA]

a data point......

the last 2 nights I've had the pleasure of hosting a 'vinyl loving' WBF member and his lovely wife from out-of-country and it's been a mostly vinyl feast and a few tapes.

this is just a 'data point' but it's clear that the vinyl just goes somewhere even the Select II cannot touch. but I am reacting with my feelings to the degree of deep dive into musical energy and the pull I experienced with these fellow music lovers. and did absolutely zero comparisons. there were quite a few 'religious' moments of musical joy abounding.

I know this feedback does little to define what the Select II is doing.......and it does not diminish in any way my awe toward the Select II. only wanted to feed the beast here of information to mull over.

This is a very important data point Mike, and thank you for sharing it. It is clear that differences exist between the formats and Al makes a good point about the individual and his particular goals. Your goal, from the wealth of your wonderful posts and system updates, seems to be "connection to the music", the more complete, the better. You are fortunate to have the means and will to pursue it with few restrictions. If your analog achieves this for you and your visitors better than this SOTA digital alternative, that is a good data point to know for those of us interested in following your writings about your audio journey. Some may view your system as a "test bed" for competing visions of SOTA designs. As such, your updated, and shared impressions are helpful.

Interestingly, I just listened to two very competent DACS in a direct shoot out last night, and then, near the end of the evening, we played a familiar recording on CD which I brought along. I then listened to the same music on an LP when I got back to my house. Differences were stark but I attribute that more to the original analog recording and transfer to digital process than I do to inherent differences in the formats. My analog rig, though old technology, certainly, costs about 15X as much as the digital latest technology to which I compared it last night. This may also be a factor in peoples decisions. At your level, I think the costs between your vinyl and latest digital are fairly similar. You made mention in one thread recently that you intend to do some direct comparisons between the best of one format and the best of the other. I look very forward to reading those.

 

[Legolas]

Sounds good Priaptor. I bet you will prefer ethernet from a PC to DAC. USB seems to send too much hash and noise down the data line. I have tried so many fixer and re-clockers, USB to SPDIF convertors. I stopped when I got the Rednet / Dante box which is Ethernet in (from my Mac Mini) and sends data as SPDIF or AES to my DAC. I don't have ethernet in my DAC. I also fitted an internal LPS to the Rednet to remove the SMPS in it.

If MSB make a good Ethernet renderer it should in theory be better than USB. I depends how it talks to the DAC. Rednet uses Dante which is from a DAW environment so very well established already. Having said this, the CH Precision C1 DAC was better on Ethernet than USB fed by a server or PC (much better).

What is HQP doing (at no up sampling mode) that is special? It may be you could use A+? I think the big deal the HQP was the well designed PCM up sampled to DSD protocol that in 'some' DACs DSD sounded smoother, better. In those DACs it was the best route. Looks like this is not the case in the Select which looks to perform best in pure PCM as resident resolution.

Interesting to see how these tests go, and also fascinating. Must say though, 10K USD for the Ethernet renderer seems a bit steep. The C1 Ethernet board was half that.

 

[Priaptor]

Sounds good Priaptor. I bet you will prefer ethernet from a PC to DAC. USB seems to send too much hash and noise down the data line. I have tried so many fixer and re-clockers, USB to SPDIF convertors. I stopped when I got the Rednet / Dante box which is Ethernet in (from my Mac Mini) and sends data as SPDIF or AES to my DAC. I don't have ethernet in my DAC. I also fitted an internal LPS to the Rednet to remove the SMPS in it.

If MSB make a good Ethernet renderer it should in theory be better than USB. I depends how it talks to the DAC. Rednet uses Dante which is from a DAW environment so very well established already. Having said this, the CH Precision C1 DAC was better on Ethernet than USB fed by a server or PC (much better).

What is HQP doing (at no up sampling mode) that is special? It may be you could use A+? I think the big deal the HQP was the well designed PCM up sampled to DSD protocol that in 'some' DACs DSD sounded smoother, better. In those DACs it was the best route. Looks like this is not the case in the Select which looks to perform best in pure PCM as resident resolution.

Interesting to see how these tests go, and also fascinating. Must say though, 10K USD for the Ethernet renderer seems a bit steep. The C1 Ethernet board was half that.

I believe the current Renderer for the Select is "only" $1,995. Not sure what the price will be for their new Roon/MQA renderer which should be released shortly.

I am not sure what HQPlayer does differently in just player mode without any filtering or upsampling that is leading to the significant improvement compared to DLNA or Roon endpoint but it is pretty significant. Definitely and interesting journey. I agree that I would like to have an Ethernet solution if it proves better, as I agree with you, it should. Looking forward to it.

 

[es347]

of course not.

it's only $84,500 list price.

it was listed for $89,500 until 6 months ago when it was reduced.

..whew, then that sheds a whole new light on affordability

 

[microstrip]

(...) this is just a 'data point' but it's clear that the vinyl just goes somewhere even the Select II cannot touch. (...)

Mike,

Can you list a few of these recordings that "were quite a few 'religious' moments of musical joy abounding"?
IMHO these 'data points' would help a lot!