MSB Select II arrival
- Thread starter Mike Lavigne
- Start date
To start with, last time I checked in 75 pages I made no mention of Lampi compares on this thread, until micro specifically called out my name regarding compares of Lampi with Select 2 in any system, to which I replied, to which you replied, and now you make it Mike's system. You also came out of the woodwork purely to attack me as you always do since I said I preferred the Lampi to Esoteric in three systems. Glad you finally realized what you were listening to and moved away from the Esoteric to the Aqua. Maybe one day you can move to the Lampi. One step at a time. Anyway, I don't want to help you take Mike's thread to the dirt so
i will tell you a funny story Ked
i saw someone selling a Soulution 560...
And I asked what next..? Lampizator ?!
And his reply was......dont be ridiculous.............I was pretty shocked??!!
I enjoyed Jones99 comparo select2 versus Vivaldi 2
Surely some components are much better than others. But when reviewing a particular component, such as cables or top equipment, IMHO most of the time we are just evaluating synergy with the system and also with the room.
Mr Harley is of course completely clueless about S/PDIF's being a 'continuous bitstream'. Its not packetized to the degree of USB but packetized it most certainly is. Extra information being added (including bi-phase mark modulation) to allow the clock to be extracted and for status bits to be transmitted.
Good to know, thanks for the info, always something to learn. Microstrip has also suggested that the data on the CD itself are packeted as well, and looking up "data structure" on the Wiki page of Compact Disc seems to indicate that this is the case, even though the page also states that there is a 'continuous audio data stream'. Do you agree?
Link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Disc_Digital_Audio#Data_structure
Yes I thought micro's riposte was particularly apt - the data structures on CD are necessarily fairly complex due to the high degree of redundancy required to give immunity to scratches on the surface. There is a continuous stream of bits coming off the disk but they are most certainly not all audio data bits. In any case the disk format is largely irrelevant as the data off the CD is buffered, processed and clocked out quartz-locked whereas the bits coming off disk are subject to jitter due to mechanical issues.
Probably he uses the word continuous in a sense that it is a synchronous process with no random or pseudo random gaps of time between packets of digital data. Not very clear, I must say.
Could be yes but its really rather a distraction as this makes no material difference in the digital circuitry which could plausibly have an impact on the SQ. USB is a much more complex transmission protocol for sure but Mr Harley completely ignores the difficulty of re-constituting the original clock once sent in somewhat garbled form over the S/PDIF link. Async USB has nothing remotely like that technical challenge to face.
Perhaps we should create a separate thread on this specific subject - although interesting it will be endless IMHO, as considering sound quality we will be guessing ...
The challenge of getting the original clock back again at the S/PDIF receiver? Its something that in the first instance is handled with a digital PLL (phase locked loop) - being digital its output is likely too jittery to be used directly so it needs feeding through a second, analog PLL. Both these PLLs are likely implemented on the receiver chip (CS8414 for example). Then the analog PLL's output calls for further clean-up with a much narrower bandwidth PLL than the on-chip one (which has to deliver fast lock-up times hence cannot attenuate LF jitter). WIth analog PLLs there's always a trade-off between bandwidth (narrow means good jitter attenuation) and lock up time (wider bandwidth delivers faster locking) so some designers are opting for non-linear approaches. Its an application that cries out for 'fuzzy logic' i.e. a software approach.
<edit> Yes I agree a separate thread will stop this one getting bogged down in arcane technical nit picking.
<edit> Yes I agree a separate thread will stop this one getting bogged down in arcane technical nit picking.
Hi Howie,
Yes, the Giya 3 has lower sensitivity (87dB) and lower impedance than the Nola Concert Grands (91dB?). Using direct drive, low sensitivity speakers are theoretically beneficial, with a working volume level closer to the optimal bypass level (98 according to latest MSB recommendation - it used to be somewhat lower). Nonetheless, you seem to be perfectly happy with a high sensitivity system all along. What is the volume range you listen to regularly? upwards of 80-ish?
DAG S250 gain = 24.5dB
DAG M400 gain = 26.5dB
ARC GS150 gain = 24dB
I think the S250 will match your setup. The M400 with a higher gain could take you further away from the optimal bypass level.
I used to have the older S200 version. Very nice, I thought, but could use more resolution, better highs and lows. Then the new S250 came along. No doubt a major upgrade offering much improvement over the S200. On the other hand, if you are looking for the even more analytical type, you should probably hear the Soulution 711 as well.
The above just my 2 cents....don't take it too seriously...trust your own judgement from an audition....
Cheers
personally I think it's helpful to have you describe your experience with the Select II and GG. it's wrong to filter out alternate views, and data points where other dacs are preferred. i see the GG for it's positives, and 'get' where it's magic can happen. the GG was a great experience for me and i could have lived with it forever.
i love that you are not politically correct and say the hard things to say. we need that.
moving forward with this thread with the idea somehow that part of the feedback is missing would be a bad thing.
please Ked, do your thing.
Thanks. Appreciate the advice. I am finding my volume levels, depending upon the file, usually around the mid 80s to low to mid 90s. Occasionally lower and rarely, but occasionally higher. Pretty similar as to when I was using the REF10 before going direct. Some stuff that just is compressed as hell has to be played lower. A pretty unique aspect of the Select II as you know, is that even with compressed files/CDs you can still extract detail and ambiance that I could never hear before. However a crappy recording is a crappy recording nonetheless.
I am not really looking for an overly analytical amp and one of the reasons I mention the 711 is because, compared to what it replaced, it more "tube like" and much less analytical than its predecessor which I would never have purchased; that is not my thing. Don't get me wrong, I love my ARC GS150, love the system and love how it mates with the Concert Grands. Carl lists the sensitivity at 91 dB @ 2.82 volts, which is the most sensitive speaker in his lineup and in fact, despite it being his signature speaker, he was driving it with the REF75 for a long time (as was I). I was initially using the REF250s on his Baby Grands, with a sensitivity much closer to your speakers, until I traded up to the Concert Grands, where the REF250s really didn't work as well as the REF75. However, when I tried the GS150 it filled the gap perfectly, for Concert Grand Reference.
My desire to try SS amps is the result of just how amazing I am finding the Select driving the GS150 direct, looking to see if there is additional synergy given the likes of things like the S250 as well as a small group of other SS amps.
I appreciate the response. My first cash outlay is going to the monobases, then I will try some SS options.
Thanks
Howie
Attached are the pics, and for those who don't know, I had already exchanged emails on this with Mike even before Micro asked the question yesterday, hence Mike's smiley to that.
As for my findings
The MSB into MSB 204 was really unnatural. It was ground to the MSB amp through the MSB pre, extremely quiet, but the blackness and roll off was just too not natural for me.
The MSB dac into AR was really nice - there was the quietness of the MSB, when a note stopped playing the pause and quietness added to the musicality, as it transitioned to the other note. However, the kuzma stabi M into airtight 5500 phono with a transfiguration 1500 cart (all prices GBP) was for me the vastly better, and the dealer enjoyed it more too. HE says AT 2005 is one of his killer price phonos, and he also let me compare it to the 12k Music First phono, which was noisier, harsher, and flatter, tonally could not differentiate as much as the air tight, and separation on orchestral was less as well. The MSB amps were also slower, less dynamic, and more rolled off with less stage than the AR 250, the thing that SS is supposed to be better at.
The Lampi with special 45s was then plugged into the AR (through the MSB dac pre, using MSB transport). It just superb, the dealer too was surprised... Much more depth, stage, flow, tone, liquidity then the MSB. The tympani bass was much superior, coming from space with depth, rather than more from the speakers. Loads of air. More liquidity and tonal difference. Each note decayed more, the difference was more apparent on tuttis. The 242 did not sound good here (hard and forward) and the PX25 slightly better than MSB I would say but a bit dark.
With the MSB amps, the Lampi was much noisier, but then it also did not benefit from the grounding between MSB dac and MSB amps. The kuzma too did not sound natural through MSB amps. The 242 distorted when we had the MSB amps on.
That said, having heard Mike's system, in his I am sure I would prefer MSB dac to Lampi, because he would get the lower noise floor I heard with the MSB amp plus the musicality I heard with the AR (plus more) through his Darts. And I can also see that any valve in his system causes a waviness that does not work as it causes haziness.
I most came out impressed with the ATE-2005 for the price.
As for my findings
The MSB into MSB 204 was really unnatural. It was ground to the MSB amp through the MSB pre, extremely quiet, but the blackness and roll off was just too not natural for me.
The MSB dac into AR was really nice - there was the quietness of the MSB, when a note stopped playing the pause and quietness added to the musicality, as it transitioned to the other note. However, the kuzma stabi M into airtight 5500 phono with a transfiguration 1500 cart (all prices GBP) was for me the vastly better, and the dealer enjoyed it more too. HE says AT 2005 is one of his killer price phonos, and he also let me compare it to the 12k Music First phono, which was noisier, harsher, and flatter, tonally could not differentiate as much as the air tight, and separation on orchestral was less as well. The MSB amps were also slower, less dynamic, and more rolled off with less stage than the AR 250, the thing that SS is supposed to be better at.
The Lampi with special 45s was then plugged into the AR (through the MSB dac pre, using MSB transport). It just superb, the dealer too was surprised... Much more depth, stage, flow, tone, liquidity then the MSB. The tympani bass was much superior, coming from space with depth, rather than more from the speakers. Loads of air. More liquidity and tonal difference. Each note decayed more, the difference was more apparent on tuttis. The 242 did not sound good here (hard and forward) and the PX25 slightly better than MSB I would say but a bit dark.
With the MSB amps, the Lampi was much noisier, but then it also did not benefit from the grounding between MSB dac and MSB amps. The kuzma too did not sound natural through MSB amps. The 242 distorted when we had the MSB amps on.
That said, having heard Mike's system, in his I am sure I would prefer MSB dac to Lampi, because he would get the lower noise floor I heard with the MSB amp plus the musicality I heard with the AR (plus more) through his Darts. And I can also see that any valve in his system causes a waviness that does not work as it causes haziness.
I most came out impressed with the ATE-2005 for the price.
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Those in NY are welcome to visit Queens to listen to this system which houses a 50k Platinum stack and a GG. He preferred his Big 7 to it and loves his GG way more. He has heard the Select 2, and loves it, prefers the Lampi, though I am not sure if compared Select 2 and Lampi directly. I have not heard his system so cannot comment, but will do at some stage. This is a 45 x 20 room, speakers 16 ft from the front wall, he sits 25 ft from the front wall.
Either way visit Queens and listen for yourself.
Either way visit Queens and listen for yourself.
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