MSB Select II arrival

[jkeny]

Great post there! And I agree. Also there is the thought that some noise (tape hiss for example) can help us discern more detail and low level information. Don't ask me how, I just read that in various papers and some pro audio reviews.

But to me, my personal problem with this digititus thing as we are calling it is more simple than any of these things. It is a coarseness in the 10-15 Khz region. To break it down to descriptives, it sounds like a chain saw type noise as a recessed part of the details and some sibilance (very subtle but is there regardless). I have no real technical backup to prove this, but I wonder if it is caused by the digital filtering and / or up sampling? Hard hat donned for the blow back here! But anyway, that is my theory. The DACs I seem to relax with and enjoy the most (less stressful) seem to be the R-2R variants, and the ones I don't enjoy seem to be the DS variants. Huge caveat and I have not heard them all obviously, I am talking a round up of my demos.

Yes, I agree - with many SD DACs there seems to me to be a coarseness that sets in in the HF area when crescendos are being replayed - it's as if some auto gain control kicked in & things become too piercing -
the musical flow is interrupted. I'm sure it's a perceptual effect for something in the sound which we are picking up in this way - in other words trying to find an increase in gain in the HF would be a misdirected search.

This 'flow' to the music is one of the strengths of analogue but it's often overlooked until it's compared to digital.

 

[jkeny]

Great post there! And I agree. Also there is the thought that some noise (tape hiss for example) can help us discern more detail and low level information. Don't ask me how, I just read that in various papers and some pro audio reviews.

Here's my take on this phenomena. There's a aspect of auditory perceptions workings called Comodulated Masking Release (CMR) which allows us to hear below the 'apparent' noise floor. It works like this - we develop our auditory perception by the constant example of the sounds we are exposed to in nature, we are not born with auditory perception, just the physical mechanisms to change air pressure into nerve impulses ( the same as all our senses - we are born with the physical mechanisms to turn photons, molecules, pressure, etc into nerve impulses in the eye mechanism, nose mechanism, skin/touch mechanism, etc).

This is the starting point but we need to teach the brain how to analyse & make sense of these nerve impulses. The physical world is our teacher & what we need to achieve is an analysis of these nerve signals which have some correspondence to the physical world that is useful to our continuing existence in that world & allows us to interact with it. So we educate our senses through the signals generated by the air pressure changes at our eardrum. The auditory pattern a sound from nature makes is not random - for instance most natural sounds start with sharp attack & slow decay. So we learn these patterns & these become the universal pattern recognition library that we all share, more or less. It's these patterns that our auditory perception uses in making it's determination about what sounds belong to what auditory objects in the sound field.

Anyway, one of the we are of the patterns found in nature is that most sounds are not pure tones & are accompanied by other sounds which amplitude modulate in the same pattern (correlated) to the main sound. The links seems to be broken on this site which gave a great practical example of a modulating pure sound which is obscured from being heard by a certain level of Gaussian noise but if that same level of noise is now amplitude modulated in the same pattern as the sound we can now hear below the noise into the sound. (I know in my previous post I said that Gaussian noise can be ignored as background but I also said that I was simplifying matters for the sake of making a point - patterns also matter to auditory perception)

Is it possible that tape & vinyl hiss is actually amplitude modulating with some parts of the music & allowing us to hear deeper into the sound?

 

[caesar]

One of the interesting things mentioned but seemingly glossed over - that vinyl recorded to digital doesn't result in digititis - is this correct?
I believe investigating this might give a clue to what is underlying digititis which has noise at its core?

That is correct. Vinyl that is *professionally* recorded to PCM digital is an awesome format. Much more MUSICAL resolution than original vinyl because lack of stylus microphonics. Imagine an original Beatles or Stones record that was touched by man only once or twice to rip it to digital... (DSD rips I have heard sound too smooth in a fake way, unfortunately.)

But then again, if your DAC sucks you will get some digital glare in the highs, if your room is too reverberant or lacks bass treatment, the sound will be smeared and boomy, and if your amp sux, it will not have the proper micro and macro dynamics or will sound sterile...

 

[bonzo75]

Great post there! And I agree. Also there is the thought that some noise (tape hiss for example) can help us discern more detail and low level information. Don't ask me how, I just read that in various papers and some pro audio reviews.

When I was at Schopper's, he loved listening to the tape hiss every time on vinyl because it meant the vinyl had not been digitally processed to take out the hiss and compress the information.

 

[caesar]

Mike, I am enjoying this thread ...

I have enjoyed reading your writings about your system and room improvements over time, but I don't really have a sense of what drives your obvious passion and momentous efforts to constantly improve what you have to ever higher levels. Is it to discover and own the current state of the art? You seem to be on a constant path, always moving forward toward the next improvement. Ordinarily, this would imply to me that you are not satisfied with what you have. But, I have been following your posts long enough to understand that you are immensely satisfied with your current gear and could stop any time, and yet, you continue onward. It is remarkable.

Peter, great question. I am curious to Mike's response. But here's my thinking based on personal experience and seeking to understand human nature...

Those who are fully engaged in this hobby, high end audio generates strong passions, to say the least. For audiophiles, the better the system, the stronger the emotions felt inside and deeper connection to music…

As materials get better, ways to put them together is improved, and computers get faster, innovation moves things forward out of passion of designers and, of course, for economic reasons.

Coming back to the perspective of the audiophile, every time we imagine something as “more realistic”, there is a GAP between our current reality and a better future reality. It’s like an itch on our mind and on our soul. If we are lucky, we do everything we can, short of bankrupting ourselves, destroying relationships, physically moving / rearranging our lives, etc., to scratch that itch. The gap has emotional ramifications.
I would love to see some MRI studies of audiophiles, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the mechanism were closely linked to dopamine reward pathways and other primal pathways that help us enjoy sex, drugs, and rock and roll.

The current high can be very, very enjoyable. But if there is a better high, and costs are not too steep, audiophiles go for it.

 

[microstrip]

I do not have an opinion on this. I listen to vinyl I like (good recordings) on demos, the few times I heard DG digital (without knowing what it was) I haven't liked it. But I don't have a high sample size and haven't actively looked at this.

I have asked this question before, as I think it is a fundamental point to understand and debate and understand "digititis". I have even created a thread on it sometime ago. However most people who are radical adepts of "digititis" avoided to have an opinion on it.

Considering the existence of digital delay lines in most vinyl cutters, we can assume that most of current vinyl goes through a digital process, even when was analog mastered.

 

[bonzo75]

I have asked this question before, as I think it is a fundamental point to understand and debate and understand "digititis". I have even created a thread on it sometime ago. However most people who are radical adepts of "digititis" avoided to have an opinion on it.

Considering the existence of digital delay lines in most vinyl cutters, we can assume that most of current vinyl goes through a digital process, even when was analog mastered.

I am not avoiding any opinions. I lack that vinyl experience, also when I audition this aspect somehow does not interest me. There are so many good vinyl recordings, my focus as a late starter on analog is to have some favorites on vinyl, one of the biggest upgrades in hifi that I noted at Mike's is to swap to a 45rpm. Others I can do a bulk buy for a 1000 LPs at low prices decca types and I will be fine. The rest will be digital streaming.

As I said, when I was in my initial days of auditioning vinyl some would play a recording that I would not see any vinyl value in, and invariably it would turn out be a DG digital. But the sample set is low since it was only during demos, and accidental. I am also still focused on components and not into recordings yet, which hopefully happens later when I turn more indoors instead of outdoors.

 

[caesar]

I have asked this question before, as I think it is a fundamental point to understand and debate and understand "digititis". I have even created a thread on it sometime ago. However most people who are radical adepts of "digititis" avoided to have an opinion on it.

Considering the existence of digital delay lines in most vinyl cutters, we can assume that most of current vinyl goes through a digital process, even when was analog mastered.

Microstrip, I am not sure what you are asking about "digititis". Assuming one has a reference DAC, good room, good electricity, well done source material, etc., digital vs. analog is just a preference... I happen to like both experiences

 

[microstrip]

Microstrip, I am not sure what you are asking about "digititis". Assuming one has a reference DAC, good room, good electricity, well done source material, etc., digital vs. analog is just a preference... I happen to like both experiences

It is clear you have been vaccinated ...

Curiously we were not referring to "digititis" as something that has a sound, but as a personal subjective "disease" that makes one uncomfortable when listening to digital media.

 

[DaveyF]

If digital always has a certain "hardness" it means your digital playing system is not adequate and is affecting your ranking. Just to please my curiosity, which recordings existing in the three formats did you use for your evaluation?

Please re-read my post. I am not talking about my system or any particular recording.

 

[microstrip]

Please re-read my post. I am not talking about my system or any particular recording.

You defined very clear and precise conditions and referred IME in your post. I just asked for details. They are needed if we want to learn from it or compare with our experience.

 

[caesar]

It is clear you have been vaccinated ...

Ha Ha Ha HA!

 

[NorthStar]

Yeah, that was a good humorous reply ?

 

[spiritofmusic]

I don't hear any "digititis" on my Eera cdp, GG dac, Emm Labs CDSA, Marantz CD12/DA12, SGM server/T&A Dac8.
I can listen to these digital pieces all day every day, and look fwds to the next album.
But put a good lp on, and I'm transported.
Yet I'm one of the few who's tried to approximate my vinyl front end to digital's undoubted strengths/advantages.
Anyone suffering digititis in 2017 really needs to work out what's wrong w their dac/cabling/pwr/room interface.
There's no excuse for it.

 

[Al M.]

Anyone suffering digititis in 2017 really needs to work out what's wrong w their dac/cabling/pwr/room interface.
There's no excuse for it.

Well said.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ha Al, we agree!
Crack open a couple of beers!

 

[caesar]

Ha Al, we agree!
Crack open a couple of beers!

You Brits like your beer warm, right?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Yep, warm with a pork pie in it.
None of that fizzy, ice cold "light" beer, no thank you.

 

[Young Skywalker]

my MSB Select II is grounded to the Tripoint Troy Signature, and the Tara Labs Grandmaster Evolution w/HFX dual grounding boxes.

I have not played around with taking that ground away, so I cannot comment right now on it's in or out contribution......except that it sounds great.

Hi Mike,

How do the Tara Labs GME interconnects fit side by side in the Select DAC's output module? The MSB's connectors look pretty close together and the cables are rather well endowed in the girth department. Would love a photo if you could manage it. Appreciate that you are very busy.

Regards,
Aaron

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike,

How do the Tara Labs GME interconnects fit side by side in the Select DAC's output module? The MSB's connectors look pretty close together and the cables are rather well endowed in the girth department. Would love a photo if you could manage it. Appreciate that you are very busy.

Regards,
Aaron

hello Aaron,

the GME is huge, although quite flexible. however; the GME comes with very high quality short 'extenders' (part of what you get for $31k retail) which are small form factor for just that purpose. never thought I would need them, but then I did.

I'm on a fishing trip, then the eclipse, home for one day and then a business trip.......so might not able to take a picture for a week.

Mike