MSB Select II arrival

[morricab]

Hey Morricab, Go easy on our Mike--he replies with restraint and non combative and sensible replies--unlike some I could mention on some forums where this subject unleashes all out war!

I'm sure he'll get around to confiding the million dollar question when he is good and ready

Meantime I'm enjoying the banter--keep it coming guys

BruceD

Fair enough...he is a good sport about it, I agree.

 

[morricab]

I dumped my vinyl rig and living very happily in my CH Precison, all digital land . So it is possible.

I just wonder when this analog vs digital debate will come to an end? I do not see the point, both formats has its strenghts.

JP

Sure, why not? I have no doubt that people can be happen with all digital. Just not me it seems...

 

[morricab]

Brad, the UK was a bit of a Third World country in the 80s, we didn't have much access to cdp's other than the Meridian and Phillips etc.
Grahams HiFi in N. London was THE destination for Linn and Naim which was where 95% of British audiophiles were spending their cash.
Absolute Sounds was selling Accuphase, Krell, Wilson, Apogee etc, but one didn't gravitate there, esp as a dirt poor student at the time.
Maybe had I gone there, my first system would have been all-US ie VPI tt, Accuphase cdp, Krell amp, Wilson Watt Puppy or Apogee Duetta spkrs.
So, yes I can't relate any experience of these 80s digital alternatives.
I thank my lucky stars I didn't succumb to the lifestyle audio concept Meridian 207Pro and M20 active spkrs, that I was a cat's whiskers close to doing.
I find it hard to believe the CD12/DA12 wasn't one of the best, have you actually heard it?
I read somewhere that Mr Marantz himself, Mr. Ken Ishiwata considers the player the greatest creation in his illustrious career.
Quite how he ended up subsequently designing the SA1 is beyond me, undoubtedly the biggest foul up in my audio buying history.

Well, I haven't heard those models but I can imagine that they sound fine...although I would be quite doubtful regarding the analog output stage...the Japanese companies (Marantz was Japanese by then) were using opamps like sprinkles on ice cream...they are everywhere inside! I am sure that brings down the ultimate sound quality. You should see the old Lampizator page where he dissects these old players and finds them to be quite good once the analog output stage is "lampizated".

The DACs of the early 90s were really excellent, before the Delta/sigma takeover. People forget...It is hard to get some of the best of them...people hang on to them.

My good friend, the late Allen Wright of Vacuumstate, had a modification for Sony SACD players where he bypasses the whole analog output stage, which had like 20 opamps, with his fully discrete SS output stage...marvelous improvement.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, I'm loaded up w chill pills from my local supplier

 

[bonzo75]

Mike, I'm loaded up w chill pills from my local supplier

Maybe a good time to meet up then

 

[spiritofmusic]

God Ked, you've taken yours then LOL?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Now, wait a minute Mike, it is you yourself that has declared (in your system) that analog is the reference. Why then should you have issue with Marc asking to justify the price/performace of the Select II as to how close it approaches your own, self declared reference? I mean, it is a REALLY expensive DAC that should be approaching or even surpassing even the best analog on a like for like recording. I think to justify its price it should be getting more than close to your previous reference it should surpass it. If it is not then what justifies the price?

You have been dragging this thread along without any concrete comparison to analog. Just fueling speculation. You don't expect any of us to believe that you haven't made such comparisons already, do you? Most of us would make these comparisons straight away because that is THE big hanging question. How does it compare to your self-declared reference? Gear-o-philes want to know. Can you dump your analog and live happily ever after in MSB-land? Is it really apples and oranges?

Brad,



I've said multiple times in this thread that (1) I view the performance of the Select II as similar to vinyl, (2) but short by degrees, and (3) something beyond other digital in my experience.

also; if you've read the whole thread you know I wanted to wait for MSB to release their new Ethernet Renderer (checked last week and not quite ready) so I can compare it to the SGM server with USB and decide which way to go and then optimize the cables for that before I draw any conclusions.

and over these last 2-3 years with my considerable efforts and investigations to find my ultimate digital never did I write I was searching for or expected to find digital fully equaling or surpassing my vinyl. i realize that is what many people want this to boil down to. that is not my view.

all that said there is no time line or end point for my experiences with the MSB Select II. this is not a review where it's being returned to the manufacturer and I have a deadline to write a conclusion. this is simply relating mine and other's experiences with the Select II and related issues.

i get the desire for 'Harley-Valin-???' type declarations. and no doubt the Select II for various reasons stirs the embers of excitement as it should. i know myself when i first heard it now almost 3 years ago at a show it did get me excited. i tried since then to find that level of musical excitement elsewhere, but could not and gave in to the pull. now every day i get to enjoy it. and that is where I'm at.

and i appreciate your later comment that you understand where I'm coming from.

 

[Priaptor]

Brad,



I've said multiple times in this thread that (1) I view the performance of the Select II as similar to vinyl, (2) but short by degrees, and (3) something beyond other digital in my experience.

also; if you've read the whole thread you know I wanted to wait for MSB to release their new Ethernet Renderer (checked last week and not quite ready) so I can compare it to the SGM server with USB and decide which way to go and then optimize the cables for that before I draw any conclusions.

and over these last 2-3 years with my considerable efforts and investigations to find my ultimate digital never did I write I was searching for or expected to find digital fully equaling or surpassing my vinyl. i realize that is what many people want this to boil down to. that is not my view.

all that said there is no time line or end point for my experiences with the MSB Select II. this is not a review where it's being returned to the manufacturer and I have a deadline to write a conclusion. this is simply relating mine and other's experiences with the Select II and related issues.

i get the desire for 'Harley-Valin-???' type declarations. and no doubt the Select II for various reasons stirs the embers of excitement as it should. i know myself when i first heard it now almost 3 years ago at a show it did get me excited. i tried since then to find that level of musical excitement elsewhere, but could not and gave in to the pull. now every day i get to enjoy it. and that is where I'm at.

and i appreciate your later comment that you understand where I'm coming from.

I couldn't agree more with your comments.

Although I am no longer an "analogue guy", I understand the desire of those who are, to reference the Select II to the best of Analogue rigs.

My own perspective of this, even as it pertains to Mike's incredible system, is that the variables for such a comparison are so many, that it is difficult to reach a conclusion of direct comparison.

First of course, is the media. Having been a vinyl guy in my prior years, there is no doubt in my mind, that in many if not most cases in the past, better care and mastering to vinyl compared to CD was the rule, not the exception. Many of our older CDs which we considered good, were not so much planned that way, but luckily mastered properly. Of course, like Vinyl, those of us in the digital world have seen the resurrection of some of these poorly recorded CDs in the form of "high res" remasters that often suck as well. "High res" is no panacea for GOOD. I'm not saying that there are no good digital recordings, just that differences exist. On newer recordings, we are indeed witnessing better and better recording and mastering techniques, closing if not eliminating or surpassing the gap. The point being is the actual media needs to be as close to each other as possible before you even start.

Second of course, is a system setup. Mike brings up the point of wanting to compare the renderer to the USB input on the Select II as do I. Right now I have found, given the products available to me, that the new ultraRendu/LPS-1 combination being fed by a computer isolated on my network is superior to any other setup/player I have tried (& I have tried ROON, JRiver, HQPlayer, servers with linear power supplies with JCAT and SOTM USB cards, microRendu and all the combinations you can muster of these variables).

Lastly is how the DAC is installed in the system. MSB "recommends" going direct into the amp, whereas some like Mike for many reasons are choosing to go through a different pre stage. I cannot comment on behalf of Mike as I have not heard his system but understand how awesome of a system including his preamp, but for me, comparing the Select II direct to my amp versus going through my awesome REF10 was a no brainer. I would never have believed the "hype" before I tried it and never really thought the pre stage of the Select II would outperform the REF10 but it did and the REF10 has been sold to a lucky person in North FL who is an analogue guy.

So where does that leave me/us. I'm not sure but all I can say is I'm loving my system like I have never enjoyed it before, look forward to the new renderer to see if it can "beat" my current USB setup and am not looking back or elsewhere; at least for the time being!

 

[morricab]

Brad,



I've said multiple times in this thread that (1) I view the performance of the Select II as similar to vinyl, (2) but short by degrees, and (3) something beyond other digital in my experience.

also; if you've read the whole thread you know I wanted to wait for MSB to release their new Ethernet Renderer (checked last week and not quite ready) so I can compare it to the SGM server with USB and decide which way to go and then optimize the cables for that before I draw any conclusions.

and over these last 2-3 years with my considerable efforts and investigations to find my ultimate digital never did I write I was searching for or expected to find digital fully equaling or surpassing my vinyl. i realize that is what many people want this to boil down to. that is not my view.

all that said there is no time line or end point for my experiences with the MSB Select II. this is not a review where it's being returned to the manufacturer and I have a deadline to write a conclusion. this is simply relating mine and other's experiences with the Select II and related issues.

i get the desire for 'Harley-Valin-???' type declarations. and no doubt the Select II for various reasons stirs the embers of excitement as it should. i know myself when i first heard it now almost 3 years ago at a show it did get me excited. i tried since then to find that level of musical excitement elsewhere, but could not and gave in to the pull. now every day i get to enjoy it. and that is where I'm at.

and i appreciate your later comment that you understand where I'm coming from.

Great! Thanks for the clear unambiguous statements .

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, maybe I'm missing something, but may I ask why you listen to vinyl rips on digital?
Is this a convenience thing, an ongoing digital v analog comparison, or another reason?
I'm just not getting it.
I can just about get the odd comparison of, say a classic album like Kind Of Blue on yr NVS v Select II, but not a continuous diet of the "wrong" format ie if Kind Of Blue sounds more authentic on lp, play it on yr tt, if it interestingly sounds better on digital, then play the Tidal stream via yr SGM on the Select II.
But I don't see a third option where a digital rip of the vinyl is the best option.
Please put me right.

 

[microstrip]

(...) But like the story of the Hare And The Tortoise, digital isn't leapfrogging analog. (...)

Which is the hare and witch is the tortoise? Are you considering that digital has been sleeping for thirty years, as we have real elsewhere?

 

[microstrip]

(...) and over these last 2-3 years with my considerable efforts and investigations to find my ultimate digital never did I write I was searching for or expected to find digital fully equaling or surpassing my vinyl. i realize that is what many people want this to boil down to. that is not my view. (...)

Mike,
Any particular reason why you refer to your vinyl, not to your R2R? I have to say that the Studer A80 influenced my digital choice.

 

[DaveC]

I couldn't agree more with your comments.

Although I am no longer an "analogue guy", I understand the desire of those who are, to reference the Select II to the best of Analogue rigs.

My own perspective of this, even as it pertains to Mike's incredible system, is that the variables for such a comparison are so many, that it is difficult to reach a conclusion of direct comparison.

First of course, is the media. Having been a vinyl guy in my prior years, there is no doubt in my mind, that in many if not most cases in the past, better care and mastering to vinyl compared to CD was the rule, not the exception. Many of our older CDs which we considered good, were not so much planned that way, but luckily mastered properly. Of course, like Vinyl, those of us in the digital world have seen the resurrection of some of these poorly recorded CDs in the form of "high res" remasters that often suck as well. "High res" is no panacea for GOOD. I'm not saying that there are no good digital recordings, just that differences exist. On newer recordings, we are indeed witnessing better and better recording and mastering techniques, closing if not eliminating or surpassing the gap. The point being is the actual media needs to be as close to each other as possible before you even start.

Second of course, is a system setup. Mike brings up the point of wanting to compare the renderer to the USB input on the Select II as do I. Right now I have found, given the products available to me, that the new ultraRendu/LPS-1 combination being fed by a computer isolated on my network is superior to any other setup/player I have tried (& I have tried ROON, JRiver, HQPlayer, servers with linear power supplies with JCAT and SOTM USB cards, microRendu and all the combinations you can muster of these variables).

Lastly is how the DAC is installed in the system. MSB "recommends" going direct into the amp, whereas some like Mike for many reasons are choosing to go through a different pre stage. I cannot comment on behalf of Mike as I have not heard his system but understand how awesome of a system including his preamp, but for me, comparing the Select II direct to my amp versus going through my awesome REF10 was a no brainer. I would never have believed the "hype" before I tried it and never really thought the pre stage of the Select II would outperform the REF10 but it did and the REF10 has been sold to a lucky person in North FL who is an analogue guy.

So where does that leave me/us. I'm not sure but all I can say is I'm loving my system like I have never enjoyed it before, look forward to the new renderer to see if it can "beat" my current USB setup and am not looking back or elsewhere; at least for the time being!

I've been wondering how this fits in... I don't have a vinyl rig but I do have a lot of vinyl rips and they are often the best recordings I have, some are spectacular. It makes me think we're not really comparing apples to oranges because the quality of the recordings don't match up. It makes me think a DAC actually is capable of much higher performance than we give them credit for. Maybe Mike can comment on vinyl vs a well-done vinyl rip played back via the MSB Select?

I regret I wasn't there for it but there was a recent test done of RtR vs RtR rip played back via a MSB stack and I heard the differences were extremely slight.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,
Any particular reason why you refer to your vinyl, not to your R2R? I have to say that the Studer A80 influenced my digital choice.

Micro,

I just looked back at the first 201 posts in this thread, to observe how I defined analog. almost every time I actually used the term 'analog'; and when I mentioned vinyl I also mentioned tape. I stopped at post 201. likely there are places in later posts I just typed vinyl and did not bother to type tape too.

if I was trying to describe the differences between the presentation and performance of vinyl and tape in my particular system, and then relate that comparison with the Select II performance and presentation, I expect there would be separate tendency's of both vinyl and tape that I would assign to the Select II to certain degrees. at this point in time this 'sense-expectation' is not clearly defined in my mind, but just a feel for how it would go.

i do consider my particular vinyl and tape both to be particularly linear and low distortion, so while they are not identical, they are more similar than not.

my attraction to the Select II cannot be separated from my views on how my vinyl and tape sound. the Select II is familiar to me in the best sense of the word.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, maybe I'm missing something, but may I ask why you listen to vinyl rips on digital?
Is this a convenience thing, an ongoing digital v analog comparison, or another reason?
I'm just not getting it.
I can just about get the odd comparison of, say a classic album like Kind Of Blue on yr NVS v Select II, but not a continuous diet of the "wrong" format ie if Kind Of Blue sounds more authentic on lp, play it on yr tt, if it interestingly sounds better on digital, then play the Tidal stream via yr SGM on the Select II.
But I don't see a third option where a digital rip of the vinyl is the best option.
Please put me right.

i listen a lot. I've written about it often. and i work 6 days a week. and I'm almost 66 years old. so as much as i love my vinyl, often I've just awakened, or anticipating sleeping, so setting up playlists and allowing the music to play while i either slip into 'zen state' or 'multi-task' on the computer is just my real-world reality. and my likely 500+ (and growing) now vinyl and tape rips at 2xdsd are attractive choices. there are vinyl rips where I'm conscious that it's a rip, but many more that transcend that process and seem all there. I've listened to these rips on the GG, Nagra HD, the Aqua Formula, and now on the Select II. it's not close, the Select II get's closer, much closer, to the real time vinyl. if you investigate the Select II you will read about the 'hybrid' dac, and also dsd 'optimized'......and it really is the ultimate dsd dac.

no; it's not 100% of the vinyl, but it get's me most of the way there. and it allows me to hear the best music in a more accessible way that works for my life.

there are many situations where digital is the only access to certain music, but other times where digital is the only practical choice to listen to due to life pressures. either way; the Select II is the ultimate tool for it. and many times i might set up a play list of vinyl and tape rips, a Tidal track, another Tidal MQA master, and other tracks of various resolutions of PCM or dsd off the NAS. having a dac which is superior in all these situations is pretty awesome.

I've been wondering how this fits in... I don't have a vinyl rig but I do have a lot of vinyl rips and they are often the best recordings I have, some are spectacular. It makes me think we're not really comparing apples to oranges because the quality of the recordings don't match up. It makes me think a DAC actually is capable of much higher performance than we give them credit for. Maybe Mike can comment on vinyl vs a well-done vinyl rip played back via the MSB Select?

I regret I wasn't there for it but there was a recent test done of RtR vs RtR rip played back via a MSB stack and I heard the differences were extremely slight.

+1......that rips of vinyl or tape can be spectacular.

however; the enemy of the very very good......is the astonishing. and vinyl and tape at the top of the heap does touch 'astonishing' regularly. but with the Select II that difference is less than i ever thought it could be.

so we agree..........but there are going to be quite variable experiences with this question based on exactly what vinyl or what tape is being ripped, how effectively, and then how is it being compared to a reference. there are almost an infinite amount of levels of analog playback. so many moving pieces and degrees of set-up for both......so generalizations are not useful.

 

[morricab]

I've been wondering how this fits in... I don't have a vinyl rig but I do have a lot of vinyl rips and they are often the best recordings I have, some are spectacular. It makes me think we're not really comparing apples to oranges because the quality of the recordings don't match up. It makes me think a DAC actually is capable of much higher performance than we give them credit for. Maybe Mike can comment on vinyl vs a well-done vinyl rip played back via the MSB Select?

I regret I wasn't there for it but there was a recent test done of RtR vs RtR rip played back via a MSB stack and I heard the differences were extremely slight.

Go onto Youtube and listen to some rips from Bob Wood...really great sounding and he is mixing it up with a lot of cartridges and turntables...none SOTA but the sound is really nice. I particularly like the sound of his Kenwood KP7010 with Soundsmith Zephyr cart or ZYX R100H and Graham Slee acension phonostage. He also has a souped up Lenco L75 with the same carts that sounds weightier but IMO a bit slower but still really nice.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, so these vinyl rips are the exotic equivalent of that vinyl home cassette taping we all did as teenagers?
I remember just getting into vinyl as a teen, but loving having assembled TDK CrO2 tape compilations to impress my friends.
Have I got that right, that you have limited time to listen, and need maxxed out compilations and playlists that you rip?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, so these vinyl rips are the exotic equivalent of that vinyl home cassette taping we all did as teenagers?
I remember just getting into vinyl as a teen, but loving having assembled TDK CrO2 tape compilations to impress my friends.
Have I got that right, that you have limited time to listen, and need maxxed out compilations and playlists that you rip?

with Roon it is easy to count my vinyl and tape 2xdsd rips; i have 844 of them on my NAS as of this morning.

there are no 'compilation' rips. they are almost all full albums, with a very few single cuts from 12" single pressings. however; the digital medium allows for me assembling listening playlists, or very quickly and conveniently navigating to tracks albums and composers or artists. it has taken me a few months but now i can find anything so easily that i don't think about it. i can combine my own files with Tidal titles. and the quality of what i hear is just superb.

the music serves my listening time in a better, more satisfying way, than ever before.

this is not to diminish the value and specialness of pure analog sessions; but it's not an all or nothing proposition......i can have both.

 

[chopchopbin]

Hi Mike,

Can you share with us the process, software and equipment involved in ripping vinyl?
I remembered you mentioned it somewhere in the forum but I couldn't seemed to find it.
Thanks.

 

[Matej Isak]

I first heard it a couple of years ago at RMAF. then heard it again more last year at the Newport Show. I went back a couple of times last year. there was something about it's ease and continuousness and hearing into the music, without tubes, that took digital to another level......like the Trinity dac i had only better. more like my vinyl, or tape. it's been in the back of my mind since then. thinking about this LA Show coming up i had been anticipating listening more to it again. and i did. and then i bought one. it will arrive Friday.

for over 2 years I've been on the hunt for my 'end-game' digital. i had the same digital for 9 years prior to my investigations. I've had lots of fun and it's been a learning experience.

this MSB Select II has the single power supply and the upgraded Femto 33 clock.

........and the USB input. i'll be using it with the SGM, and will get the Ethernet renderer to compare directly to the USB/SGM to see which approach is better when each is optimized.

I'm excited.

View attachment 33275

Hi, Mike. I'm joining the thread late, but nevertheless. First and foremost congrats on the addition of the Select DAC to your most impressive audio system. As a happy owner of the MSB Select DAC II for quite some time now, I've followed all the posts and comments with great interest. Your observations are very close to my conclusions, including the comparing to the vinyl experience.

As you, I'm eagerly waiting for new render module. It will be interesting to see how the Select will act as the Roon end point.

Have you tried the latest software update?