Multicell Horn Speakers

DasguteOhr

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Sep 26, 2013
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Are real good choice' re yamaha studio amps like p 3500s, not too high damping factor i use it for years. the bass is really good seems alive good punch my tip for your deltas.
P.S a yamaha p3500s have a good subwoofer xover 25-150hz in there, when 12db/oct is enough. 20220823_104322.jpg e5e8203b.jpg
 
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russtafarian

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Jul 11, 2012
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The B&K solid state amps might be cause of the problem. On Altec woofers having SS amps with grip chokes then and reduces bass. They do very well with low watt amps that have less grip and high output impedance. I don't know how your eminent delta woofers work but do check
Thank you for the feedback. I will explore this further with some amp-rolling.
 

GDHAL

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Sep 19, 2022
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Update: August 22nd 2022

I’ve now had the horns for four months and have experimented with a few different system configurations. The setup has changed for the better since my first post so here’s an update.

The biggest setup challenge has been integrating the bass bin to both the room and the multicell midrange horn. When I initially installed the speakers, I didn’t understand why they sounded so thin when run full-range with a single amp. With two 12” woofers per side, a lack of bass was the last thing I expected. Bi-amping provided a quick fix and got me enjoying the speaker right away. That's the setup I documented in my first post.

So I did some basic research on how bass horns work. I looked at how horn size and shape impacts frequency response. I took simple frequency response measurements to see what the bass bins were doing in my room. I finally figured out what was going on.

My Front Loaded Horn bins are relatively compact in order to squeeze the speakers into a domestic environment. Standard VOTT sized bass bins would be ascetically too big for my room. However, the compact size of my bass bins means the horn loading only kicks in above 150 Hz. Below that, the bass bins transition from horn-loaded to direct radiation. This means the direct radiating output at 50 Hz is about 10 dB less than the horn loaded output above 150 Hz. Some of this is due to horn size and some of this is due to room interaction. I’m not bright enough to figure out what’s causing what, but it’s easy to see how this impacts the sound of the system.

Bi-amping is an easy fix. By using an active crossover and separately powering the bass bins I got a nicely balanced full-range response from the speakers. After doing the horn research, I learned why this works. I was using the active crossover to turn up the bass bins and filter out the extra horn gain above 200 Hz. I now understand why many VOTT devotees bi-amp them.

The big challenge was to get the speakers to work in my room with a single amp. Without some means of active frequency shaping, the speakers would deliver an in-room bass response worse than a pair of mini-monitors. This calls for (gasp!) equalization. Audiophiles are taught from a young age that equalizers are BAD! Why would I add something to my system that’s BAD! Well, many years in pro audio taught me that equalizers are tools that can yield GOOD results when used properly.

I started by inserting a Meyers Sound CP10 Parametric EQ between the preamp and power amp and found that I could build a pleasing frequency contour that smooths the bass response of the speakers down to 35 Hz. This was done primarily by cutting with multiple wide-Q filters. However, my nearly 30 year old CP-10 is not transparent enough to stay in the signal path. Studio room tuner Bob Hodas uses rebuilt CP-10s in many of the rooms he works in. I should ask him who he uses to rebuild them and send mine in for a refresh. Until that time…

I’m thankful for Schiit Audio and their wild obsession with building excellent yet inexpensive equalizers. The $1499 Loki Max is an amazing piece of engineering with remote control motorized filter controls and storable presets. The $299 Lokius is pretty much the same circuit but without the automation and big-ass chokes on the bass filters. Six bands, inductor-capacitor filters, quiet, wide-bandwidth circuit, balanced and unbalanced I/O. Bring it on!

View attachment 97118

The first thing I did with the Lokius is put it on a spectrum analyzer to see how the filters work. Turning the middle two bands (400 Hz and 2 kHz) all the way down produced a smooth, even, -8 dB shelf from 200 to 8 kHz. Perfect! Inserting the Lokius between the preamp and power amp and reducing the two middle bands was all the speakers needed to deliver a smooth, musical response down to 35 Hz. As an added bonus, the Lokius serves as a balanced to single end converter for the power amp. I was able to remove the Lundahl transformer box at the amp’s input which resulted in a slight increase in system transparency.

View attachment 97119

Is the Lokius completely transparent in the signal path with the filters engaged? No, but it’s pretty damn close. Depending on the quality of the source, I’m losing maybe 2% to 5% of what I get with a straight wire connection. I can live with that because the sound I’m getting with the EQ in play is freakin’ amazing. The system is now delivering all the magic I had hoped for. I feel very fortunate that Schiit designed and launched a reasonably priced equalizer that works so well for this application.


Hello. I'm not meaning or wanting to derail the point of your post. That stated please allow me to pose a question regarding the Schiit EQ. You mentioned all three models. I'm interested in the Loki Max. You go on to write that the Lokius is not completely transparent with the filters engaged. Question is have you tested and if so what is your opinion and/or measurement data regarding its transparency when in bypass mode? Thank you.
 
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russtafarian

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Jul 11, 2012
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You go on to write that the Lokius is not completely transparent with the filters engaged. Question is have you tested and if so what is your opinion and/or measurement data regarding its transparency when in bypass mode? Thank you.
I have nothing but praise for Lokius. While I did say that Lokius is not completely transparent, I can just as strongly say that Lokius is the most transparent signal processing component I've ever used. The benefit of the EQ filters in my system far outweigh any minuscule, perceptively unnoticeable loss of transparency. I have never thought over the past few months that having Lokius in the signal path was holding back my system or diminishing my listening enjoyment.

Loki Max takes it even further with remote adjustability and presets. I think you'll have a blast with it.
 
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GDHAL

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Sep 19, 2022
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I have nothing but praise for Lokius. While I did say that Lokius is not completely transparent, I can just as strongly say that Lokius is the most transparent signal processing component I've ever used. The benefit of the EQ filters in my system far outweigh any minuscule, perceptively unnoticeable loss of transparency. I have never thought over the past few months that having Lokius in the signal path was holding back my system or diminishing my listening enjoyment.

Loki Max takes it even further with remote adjustability and presets. I think you'll have a blast with it.
Thank you so much for your reply. Regarding the transparency, I can understand it not being 100% transparent while the EQ filters are in use, even at the 12:00 position. My question is specific to bypass mode. In bypass mode the EQ circuitry is supposed to be completely out of the chain, as though you don't have the unit connected at all. So in bypass mode it should , in theory, be *completely* transparent. Can you please report your experience when using bypass mode (assuming, of course, you've used that mode)? Again, I appreciate your reply.
 

russtafarian

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Jul 11, 2012
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I haven't spent enough time listening to Lokius in bypass mode to answer that question definitively. From what little I heard, it's transparent in bypass mode.

Another issue to consider is where you place Lokius (or Loki Max). Put it near a power supply or transformer and it will hum. It's not a design flaw, it's just the nature of inductor-capacitor circuits. If Lokius is placed near a strong magnetic field, the hum will definitely impact transparency.
 
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Low325

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Wow, id love to hear this setup! My small horns speakers are good, but there has to be something with a multi-cell horn. I plan to listen to Devon’s OJAS speakers at my nearest dealer in Socal. Thanks for sharing, Russ!
 
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russtafarian

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Jul 11, 2012
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Justin Weber stopped by a few weeks ago to hear his big horn creation in their new home. Here’s the YouTube video from his visit.
 
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Low325

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This was an experience to be had. And kudos to Justin and (others?) who had the drive to build it. (Can I ‘sponsor’ for a similar pair? J/k)
Multicell horns are a thing of beauty and as said previously, it’s truly an amazing way to disperse sound into the room, that’s if, your room can handle it. And this is coming from a guy with a horn setup.

alas @russtafarian - your room, if anything, is such a star in itself! (Perhaps, you can host a bring-your-horns-in day and play at casa de russtafarian!!) I kid….
 
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