Munich HighEnd 2024

[Argonaut]

Even if you don't get a system there will be no hassle with the Mrs, I presume?

Purely for her use Kedar so I don’t anticipate any …He said confidently !

 

[bonzo75]

Purely for her use Kedar so I don’t anticipate any …He said confidently !

So are you buying two - one purely for her music use and one for you to post about on this forum?

 

[Bobbi]

I had heard so much about Aries Cerat, so had to check them out the first time I came across them. My first impressions, what a pile of big dogs do do. The room was very busy on Saturday, could not really get the correct position to get a good sound. Did not stay in the room long as there are far more interesting systems to listen to.

I thought I’ll give the system a second try. I had a similar impression on my first listen to Techdas Air Force Zero, on second listen the following day it sounded much better. They had corrected the errors of the previous day.

I went back to Aries Cerat’s room on Sunday, fewer people around and I could get to sit in a better position, I can now say it’s no longer “a pile of big dogs do do” it’s now a pile of small dogs do do. What a waste of my time I could have spent elsewhere.

Another system, equally as big and as ridiculous; the ESD Acoustic – Super Dragon in the room above sounded much better.

View attachment 130959

Not sure what you were listening to but for me and my friend the Aries Cerat room was head and shoulders above everything else we heard at the show by a long margin.
The realism was beyond anything I have heard before. The dynamic range was nuts. The Chinese drum song jolted us in our seats.
I find AC refreshing and I would think it can only be a good thing for the industry to have unique minds putting in this kind of effort to bring music to us.

 

[Argonaut]

So are you buying two - one purely for her music use and one for you to post about on this forum?

Why on earth would I want to do that .

 

[D.Duttilleux]

I had heard so much about Aries Cerat, so had to check them out the first time I came across them. My first impressions, what a pile of big dogs do do. The room was very busy on Saturday, could not really get the correct position to get a good sound. Did not stay in the room long as there are far more interesting systems to listen to.

I thought I’ll give the system a second try. I had a similar impression on my first listen to Techdas Air Force Zero, on second listen the following day it sounded much better. They had corrected the errors of the previous day.

I went back to Aries Cerat’s room on Sunday, fewer people around and I could get to sit in a better position, I can now say it’s no longer “a pile of big dogs do do” it’s now a pile of small dogs do do. What a waste of my time I could have spent elsewhere.

Another system, equally as big and as ridiculous; the ESD Acoustic – Super Dragon in the room above sounded much better.

View attachment 130959

The main challenge with multiple horn systems is integration. I have little doubt about the capabilities of ESD in this regard.

Some systems literally require 'Fingerspitzengefühl' to snap things into place.
An example of this is Audio Note's corner setup. Personally, I'm not a fan of corner loading anyway, but the brand's former demo guy (now retired) was a master at it.

​

 

[D.Duttilleux]

Hi, Just curious, this pic looks like Lorenzo cabinets but it's not a Lorenzo. It looks like the pic was of a Lorenzo cabinet but the drivers were photo shopped in. If you don't mind please explain as we can't figure it out....thx

Indeed, I 'shopped' 2 woofers of the Fleetwood DeVille in the Lorenzo cab as an example of a more sensitive alternative to the LV R80.

The weaknesses of the Fleetwood are the suboptimal horn, too high a crossover point and the output levels of horn versus woofer.
Lowering the xo and using the Lorenzo's waveguide will improve directivity and homogeneity due to a lower c-c distance and reduction of horn-baffle interference.
You could still use the fairly large cab of the Lorenzo, but to reduce group delay and possible low-end 'overhang' I would use a smaller cab.
I like EBS alignments, but it's best not to overdo it (aiming for a maximum of about 20 ms.).

 

[Elliot G.]

That's all true. In your opinion, where did it sound good?

I really don't want to say my personal views on the good the bad and the very ugly on a open Forum since I am in the business and it will come off as some prejudicial statement. There are good rooms, there are a few very good rooms, however there are far too many not so good rooms and IMO those who should truly get some help in designing and setting up thier spaces.
I hope you understand as I am not interested in starting a arguement and pissing off others which I know it will. Please understand

 

[Audiohertz2]

The R80s...

View attachment 130957

With SS Ellipticors... kinda nonsensical, but pretty good high-end drivers.

For about 30% of the price of a single Ellipticor woofer you can buy a pair of these:

View attachment 130961


for a 96dB @ 8 Ohm MTM:

View attachment 130962

How are you achieving 96db@8 ohm from a multiway MTM ( 8ohm that is )


Regards

 

[Audiohertz2]

Agree to a degree, as I noted in the Diptyque thread. Wonder how Diptyque with a REL 6-pack would sound!!

If servo woofers with DSP , furgit about it ..!

 

[morricab]

Grandi note is as you say but it’s very tipped up
I loved them but once you leave and hear a normal tonal bal there not for me
They played very loud and yea had a presence
the dipq are very good but need a bottom end you can feel not just hear
asylvox has a bottom you can feel this fills in the mids better to me.
This is always about choice but if we take the time to hear them longer I think we as observers can get closer in agreement

Did you hear Grandinote with analog or digital? There was a HUGE difference and analog was clearly inferior to the digital. Analog was thin and tipped up and bass shy, whereas the digital was bold and powerful with great presence and bass but not "hot" IMO.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Now, my list of the best systems regardless of cost:

1) Aries Cerat (Final Sunday setup). This huge ambitious system was a challenge to get setup and sounding up to it's potential and improved everyday from Thursday onward. My rating for the best sound at the show is based on the final sound achieved on Sunday. I can understand those who thought it didn't sound good on Thursday and Friday but the transformation to Saturday and then Sunday cemented it as something truly special. Simply the closest to live dynamics, live tone, live resolution that was at the show. As a note, I went to a Shostakovich Opera (The Nose) in Munich and got a huge dose (too much actually...it is a hard opera to listen to) of live, huge dynamics and many instrument live sound...AC sounded more like this than the others

2) Acapella Hyperion with Acapella electronics. Very natural and dynamic sound. Slightly less "real" than AC but not way off the pace. Huge dynamics and awesome transparency. Perhaps slightly more forgiving of poorer recordings and somewhat more room friendly...as long as your room has a high ceiling. The ion tweeter has such effortless highs and is so well integrated you never think about a tweeter...the right amount of highs are just there. Transparency is superb and coherence is so good it's hard to believe from a multi-driver speaker.

3) Diesis Roma Triode speakers with huge open baffle subs (not sure about what electronics were used). While third on my list, it is a distant third from the other two. It is also significantly less expensive (but still very expensive). Dynamics are very good and tonality and space are also very good. Resolution is good but not at the level of the others...at least in this big room. IMO, this room is too big for this speaker...even with the subs (it was well over 100m2...maybe closer to 200m2) and it gets a bit swallowed up in it. A few years ago they had this speaker in a much smaller room and with either Kondo or their own hybrid and it really was amazing. You hear some of that here but it is no longer the drama it should be. Still, it does a hell of a lot right and IMO beats most others.

4)Sigma MAAT XAC with Canever electronics: Again another step down from No. 3 but probably with as much potential. Limited by the room size and perhaps the electronics as well, This system still had awesome resolution and dynamics. Bass was more reserved than one would expect for having two huge 15 inch woofers per side but perhaps they are adjustable somehow and they dialed it back not to overload the room? Natural tone was also on display here but not the utter realism of No.1 and 2.

5) Diptyque/Kora A fraction of the price of the others but delivering some of the best sound at the show without reservation. Only bass impact might be found wanting by some. Not quite the spooky realism of the best above but not far off and better than the myriad of other speakers. Amp choice may or may not be limiting factor here.

Unrealized potential:
Line Magnetic LM-3 field coil speakers with LM electronics. Only got a very brief listen in a tiny room for such a big system...well there is serious potential here for live feeling (albeit coming with some tonal coloration). Heard something similar many years ago in Switzerland and was flabbergasted by how good it was. The sound in the small room was excellent nonetheless and hinted at what could be.

Im shocked to see AC as your number 1 pick !

 

[Audiohertz2]

Not sure what you were listening to but for me and my friend the Aries Cerat room was head and shoulders above everything else we heard at the show by a long margin.
The realism was beyond anything I have heard before. The dynamic range was nuts. The Chinese drum song jolted us in our seats.
I find AC refreshing and I would think it can only be a good thing for the industry to have unique minds putting in this kind of effort to bring music to us.

I’m a big fan of an all out SOTA effort , even when it fails ...

 

[Carlos269]

Now, my list of the best systems regardless of cost:

1) Aries Cerat (Final Sunday setup). This huge ambitious system was a challenge to get setup and sounding up to it's potential and improved everyday from Thursday onward. My rating for the best sound at the show is based on the final sound achieved on Sunday. I can understand those who thought it didn't sound good on Thursday and Friday but the transformation to Saturday and then Sunday cemented it as something truly special. Simply the closest to live dynamics, live tone, live resolution that was at the show. As a note, I went to a Shostakovich Opera (The Nose) in Munich and got a huge dose (too much actually...it is a hard opera to listen to) of live, huge dynamics and many instrument live sound...AC sounded more like this than the others

2) Acapella Hyperion with Acapella electronics. Very natural and dynamic sound. Slightly less "real" than AC but not way off the pace. Huge dynamics and awesome transparency. Perhaps slightly more forgiving of poorer recordings and somewhat more room friendly...as long as your room has a high ceiling. The ion tweeter has such effortless highs and is so well integrated you never think about a tweeter...the right amount of highs are just there. Transparency is superb and coherence is so good it's hard to believe from a multi-driver speaker.

3) Diesis Roma Triode speakers with huge open baffle subs (not sure about what electronics were used). While third on my list, it is a distant third from the other two. It is also significantly less expensive (but still very expensive). Dynamics are very good and tonality and space are also very good. Resolution is good but not at the level of the others...at least in this big room. IMO, this room is too big for this speaker...even with the subs (it was well over 100m2...maybe closer to 200m2) and it gets a bit swallowed up in it. A few years ago they had this speaker in a much smaller room and with either Kondo or their own hybrid and it really was amazing. You hear some of that here but it is no longer the drama it should be. Still, it does a hell of a lot right and IMO beats most others.

4)Sigma MAAT XAC with Canever electronics: Again another step down from No. 3 but probably with as much potential. Limited by the room size and perhaps the electronics as well, This system still had awesome resolution and dynamics. Bass was more reserved than one would expect for having two huge 15 inch woofers per side but perhaps they are adjustable somehow and they dialed it back not to overload the room? Natural tone was also on display here but not the utter realism of No.1 and 2.

5) Diptyque/Kora A fraction of the price of the others but delivering some of the best sound at the show without reservation. Only bass impact might be found wanting by some. Not quite the spooky realism of the best above but not far off and better than the myriad of other speakers. Amp choice may or may not be limiting factor here.

Unrealized potential:
Line Magnetic LM-3 field coil speakers with LM electronics. Only got a very brief listen in a tiny room for such a big system...well there is serious potential here for live feeling (albeit coming with some tonal coloration). Heard something similar many years ago in Switzerland and was flabbergasted by how good it was. The sound in the small room was excellent nonetheless and hinted at what could be.

Brad, are there any videos of the Aries Cerat (Final Sunday setup) floating around? I’m interested in hearing what was achieved.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Best thing i realized in 3 years munich and a lot of other hifi / dealer visits is that you can spend as less as 20-30 k second hand and sit on top of the mountain music wise.
If you want swiss enginering bling bling and as many boxes as you can afford eat your heart out .

Cat pre power does it for me
Zanden, 3000 9600
ARC and VTL as well.

I think a lot audiophiles instead are in love with ping ping music / soundefffects etc

A fairly easy to drive transducer is a big bonus off course

 

[Audiohertz2]

So you like /favor Toob sound ....?

 

[matthias]

thats why i probably missed the new design of Vivid unfortunately

Be glad that you didn't have to listen to

 

[morricab]

Brad, are there any videos of the Aries Cerat (Final Sunday setup) floating around? I’m interested in hearing what was achieved.

I didn't get any because my phone battery died (I have an old Iphone with very short battery lifespan at this point). My wife might have made a few..I will see and if so figure out how to post them.

 

[matthias]

Soul note YG .
Best i ve ever heard YG

They played the whole time vinyl so I requested to play a certain Fink track via streaming.
But I was not happy with the result

 

[Argonaut]

I’m a big fan of an all out SOTA effort , even when it fails ...

How curious… how do you arrive at such a generalisation? Particularly as you appear not to have attended the show !

 

[matthias]

As WVL offer a nice compression driver, the WVL AD-2544 for a frequency range 800Hz and above, I am wondering why they don't use it in a two-way speaker.

I asked WVL in Munich. He told me it would be an interesting project but due to time constraints currently not possible.