Munich HighEnd 2024

[andromedaaudio]

Another interesting product is the new Esoteric amp line.
For solid state it was very good

I think it was the M1X or something class AB monos.

Regarding Turntables best vinyl i heard was with the Kronos in the gershman room

But dollar for dollar why go for that .
For that money you can go tape machine / Tape ballistic

 

[PLF]

Of course it makes sense to have a reasonable variety of music at the show to reflect the various interests of show attendees as well as to demonstrate versatility.

But on balance it would be helpful to have a greater amount of un-amplified music, classical music a case in point.

But even with classical music there are safer as well as more interesting pieces to play.

I agree that chamber music can be very illustrative to assess equipment. Its okay to have one or two instruments playing some relatively straightforward track but its more useful perhaps adding more instruments (preferably having a piano into the mix) playing something more dynamic; sometimes it can be as simple as choosing the the first movement of the piece, or the fast movement as opposed to the adagio.

Orchestral music is also great for assessment. Again the same reasoning applies - try to go for more challenging tracks. Think Mahler (short excerpt!) rather than Mozart (although of course there is plenty of Mozart that can be played).

Voices are always good. Play Nessun Dorma, everybody knows it. But perhaps also do the rape scene from Lady MacBeth from Mtensk District and you have both voice and orchestra workout.

And choruses too are good to hear. Not just a capella or some baroque oratorio, but with relatively more dynamic orchestra playing along as well. How well can the system do the coronation scene from Boris Gudonov?

 

[tima]

Above all, I wonder what's wrong with the people who buy these things. Sooner or later, I will also have a larger TT or one that is perfectly constructed in more areas than my sweet little Platine Verdier.

When was the last update to the Platine Verdier? I've never heard one but I like the way it looks.

I can't see that with some TTs. I expect a TT from 50k (well, actually I expect it from 30k) at least,

- that the drive is kept away from seismic movements
- and that the platter is somehow decoupled from the turntable (air, oil, magnetism).

In addition, at least one of the following points should be implemented:
- the turntable cannot transmit vibrations to the tonearm (e.g. air-bearing tonearm)
- or the drive works in some way so that it cannot transmit vibrations (see Esoteric, Aries Cerat)
- or the drive has extremely good synchronisation.

Stable speed accuracy and low noise are the critical necessary elements. There are different ways to achieve those. After that, imo, it all depends on how it sounds.

 

[RCanelas]

Given the enormity of our collective musical repertoire (even in the audiophile top golden shelf), the scatter or tastes, the number of people at a show, the average time a visitor stays in a room and the amount of people that enter/leave the room in under 2 min, I'm having trouble parsing all of this talk about the music people play at shows.

I have my references and tastes. I don't expect them to be universal. I don't act on them except at home.
I see people complaining because there was a lack of rock, too much rock, not enough edm, too much of the wrong classical or baroque strands, too much girl/guitar but not enough voice. More Mahler that Mozart. I see american youtube comments saying that the people in that old world corner just simply don't like our kinda stuff, 'where is led zeppelin'? (the irony will never cease to lift my spirits)

There is just no winning if visitors don't have their expectations grounded, and in check.

 

[tima]

But on balance it would be helpful to have a greater amount of un-amplified music, classical music a case in point.

Yes, that's the ticket.

I love big orchestral music and orchestral/choral. Yet, for assessment, I think something simpler can also be very helpful. More frequently I find myself turning to Quatuor Vegh playing one of Beethoven's last quartets as an evaluation tool.

edit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCir5U860BY

 

[morricab]

Yes, that's the ticket.

I love big orchestral music and orchestral/choral. Yet, for assessment, I think something simpler can also be very helpful. More frequently I find myself turning to Quatuor Vegh playing one of Beethoven's last quartets as an evaluation tool.

I like Beethoven violin sonatas…piano adds a bit more challenge.

 

[tima]

Given the enormity of our collective musical repertoire (even in the audiophile top golden shelf), the scatter or tastes, the number of people at a show, the average time a visitor stays in a room and the amount of people that enter/leave the room in under 2 min, I'm having trouble parsing all of this talk about the music people play at shows.

I have my references and tastes. I don't expect them to be universal. I don't act on them except at home.
I see people complaining because there was a lack of rock, too much rock, not enough edm, too much of the wrong classical or baroque strands, too much girl/guitar but not enough voice. More Mahler that Mozart. I see american youtube comments saying that the people in that old world corner just simply don't like our kinda stuff, 'where is led zeppelin'? (the irony will never cease to lift my spirits)

There is just no winning if visitors don't have their expectations grounded, and in check.

Okay.

My comments were specific to this recent show in Munich.

Given your thought about 'trouble parsing all of this talk about the music people play at shows', should we not discuss what was played and just focus on equipment, or how should we talk about the music played?

Iirc you went to the Munich show? Did the music there meet your expectations? Did you win ... or what is needed for winning?

 

[tima]

I like Beethoven violin sonatas…piano adds a bit more challenge.

Pianos and sopranos are indeed challenging.

 

[Verdier]

When was the last update to the Platine Verdier? I've never heard one but I like the way it looks.

Update? What is that supposed to be?

A Verdier doesn't really need an update and, as far as I know, there has never been an update. Regardless of this, I have a doubled platter and a counterweight diagonally opposite the tonearm so that the TT can spring evenly.

Some people try alternative drives (i.e. motors from other manufacturers), but this is more in the diy area and I have no personal experience with this.

After that, imo, it all depends on how it sounds.

That's absolutely right, of course! And if someone (a manufacturer) has achieved a particularly good sound, they should be happy to earn a few extra §§ for it.

I actually hate price discussions. But at the moment we're very quickly in the region of 100k for new TTs and I would only pay that if there was really outstanding technical effort involved. An aluminium drive with a sprung foot at each corner and otherwise just good workmanship and none of the measures I mentioned have been taken - nobody should have to pay a high 5-figure sum for that, let alone more.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I usually stay 2 songs / music pieces in a room.
If its really bad / ordinary i stay 30 seconds.
Real good rooms i stay 20 - 30 nin.
And come back too 2 3 times.
Off course its very little exposure and i could be fooled, but its better then reading a magazine

 

[tima]

Update? What is that supposed to be?

A Verdier doesn't really need an update and, as far as I know, there has never been an update.

I don't know. For some reason I thought there was an updated or upscaled version, but I guess that was incorrect.

I agree that a quality turntable should be available for less than a high figure. For now I'm quite happy with my GPA Monaco.

 

[matthias]

I actually hate price discussions. But at the moment we're very quickly in the region of 100k for new TTs and I would only pay that if there was really outstanding technical effort involved. An aluminium drive with a sprung foot at each corner and otherwise just good workmanship and none of the measures I mentioned have been taken - nobody should have to pay a high 5-figure sum for that, let alone more.

Yes, we can easily apply this to all other categories of audiophile devices.

 

[morricab]

I don't know. For some reason I thought there was an updated or upscaled version, but I guess that was incorrect.

I agree that a quality turntable should be available for less than a high figure. For now I'm quite happy with my GPA Monaco.

THere is a version that uses a hydrostatic bearing (oil based) rather than magnetic levitation.

 

[bonzo75]

Given the brands that have come on the scene since 2019 is there really any progress? Is the high-end devolving?

There is progress only if you use the logic higher prices must surely be giving you more, and iphone 11 is better than iphone 7.

 

[morricab]

There is progress only if you use the logic higher prices must surely be giving you more, and iphone 11 is better than iphone 7.

I tell my wife everytime she tells me to get a new phone, "My Iphone 7 is really an Iphone 14/2!"

 

[RCanelas]

Okay.

My comments were specific to this recent show in Munich.

Given your thought about 'trouble parsing all of this talk about the music people play at shows', should we not discuss what was played and just focus on equipment, or how should we talk about the music played?

Iirc you went to the Munich show? Did the music there meet your expectations? Did you win ... or what is needed for winning?

I did go, you can find my report a few posts above. Did you? I'd be curious to know your impressions.

I found everything I wanted to hear at Munich. From Elvis to CoS, Nina Hagen to Pink Floyd, Coltrane(s) to Mussorgsky, Laura Marling to Pergolesi. We found a room playing full albums, like Fado by Bastarda and João de Sousa. I didn't hear a single mention to this, probably nobody even noticed it wasn't a playlist, normal if 30 sec residence time is an ok metric.

Is there anyone here keeping a track of everything that was played, at all times, in all rooms? How can someone say that they'd like to have heard more of *something specific* if they only stayed at any given room for a discrete period of time? They might have played *your thing* immediately before you came in, or after you left, and you'd literally never know. The people running the rooms are most likely idiots (they can never win), of course.

My point is there is a weird set of expectations floating around, and a weird set of discourses (objectively unfounded) that implicitly make an otherwise joyous time and event look like an idiot convention, simply because I didn't hear enough of what I think is best for ME to assess according to MY tastes, that of course are universal. It's a form of poisoning the well, I simply don't get what positive thing people get out of it apart from chest drumming. But everyone is, of course, free to do it to their heart's content.

 

[bonzo75]

You can sell audiophiles anything at any price.

Those on this forum are much smarter. You can only sell them at a high price.

 

[Verdier]

I thought there was an updated or upscaled version, but I guess that was incorrect.

Well, there are different variants. The original version had a black terrazzo panel as the chassis. From the end of the 80s, the German distributor used a light-coloured plate made of polymer stone as the chassis. In France, the black terrazzo panel was still mainly used. At some point in France they switched to a black painted plate, I don't know what material. But basically, the design is now 45 years old - and sounds like new.

Independently of this, there is a Nouvelle Platine Verdier, which was developed by the German distributor. This is a completely different TT. It works with an oil bearing - the disc is basically supported by an oil film. Also a very nice TT. Here, too, there was a German and a French variant, which differed essentially in the chassis material.

 

[orfeo_monteverdi]

The AC system is obviously contentious

[please forgive my poor English]

I was not in Munich this year, and I have never been in Munich before, but from what I can read:
I contend that the Contendo is a contentious system, at least in its daring attempt to demonstrate its full potential. Obviously, it was a risky bet, moreover in a room they had no previous experience with, it seems.

Nevertheless, from what I can read,
No, the demarcation line dividing the two "camps" does NOT draw a line between AC dealers / regular attendees (cf. picture in post #1,047):
just to quote a few:

[Loudspeaker manufacturer from Portugal]
I listened to it for 4 days. It eludes obvious description. It is an over the top, state of the art, disconcerting system. It is quick, material, spacious, super thick tone and unbound on dynamics and subtlety. The room was incredibly bad, so everything got polluted.

It is one of those systems that there is no doubt in my mind can reign supreme, with a lot of careful planning, lots of iterations on setup.

[Loudspeaker manufacturer from The Netherlands]
I thought this years system showed great potential.
I d love to have heard some large Orchestral works on that system, the music choice didnt help.
I think with the right room and some measuring /adjusting you can get something spectaculair out of it

Moreover, when I see the nearly unanimous negative opinions about the Stenheim Reference Ultime Two's demo (with Nagra en darTZeel), it raises questions. I heard those speakers twice, in different setups and room. The 35 live, classical concerts I attend each year, in various halls, generally very good ones, sitting on various seats, made me able to instantly recognize a truly great performer in those fabulous speakers. Well setup, this is so obvious that I could publicly post to a member who had them compared with another speaker at home:

Having heard those two speakers last week-end, at two distinct shows in the capital, both being powered by DartZeel monoblocks & preamp, I confidently can say that I am 110% sure I know what your final choice will be....

So, as I trust the perception of members who did not liked the Stenheim demo, and as this contrasts so starkly with what I know about those JAW-DROPPING speakers, I'm literally flabbergasted by those reports (in the sense that: I really don't know what to think about the causes).

(Not to speak about the whole Aries Cerat system I heard, based on admittedly another AC speaker system (Symphonia's), admittedly in a quite different, much better context (very good dedicated room), reported here - have a look! - here, there WAS a choir in front of me, no doubt, but as it was not what my brain saw, it took me 15 sec to recover from the shock; I know that one of the biggest high-end dealer of the North of Europe, who has 30+ years of experience, ...had the same shock, with the same system - but I'm afraid I will have to close this AC-related digression, otherwise the set of "AC dealers" in the aforementioned picture could be enlarged to "AC owners"; and, yes, I own an AC preamp, bought afterwards after I tried it at home)

And the (only) question this raises for me, is:
should I attend Munich 2025, and what for ?

(not to speak about the music played in the rooms)

 

[bonzo75]

Moreover, when I see the nearly unanimous negative opinions about the Stenheim Reference Ultime Two's demo (with Nagra en darTZeel), it raises questions. I heard those speakers twice, in different setups and room. The 35 live, classical concerts I attend each year, in various halls, generally very good ones, sitting on various seats, made me able to instantly recognize a truly great performer in those fabulous speakers. Well setup, this is so obvious that I could publicly post to a member who had them compared with another speaker at home:
(post #143)


So, as I trust the perception of members who did not liked the Stenheim demo, and as this contrasts so starkly with what I know about those JAW-DROPPING speakers, I'm literally flabbergasted by those reports.
(Not to speak about the whole Aries Cerat system I heard, based on admittedly another AC speaker system (Symphonia's), admittedly in a quite different, much better context (very good dedicated room), reported here - have a look! - here, there WAS a choir in front of me, no doubt, but as it was not what my brain saw, it took me 15 sec to recover from the shock; I know that one of the biggest high-end dealer of the North of Europe, who has 30+ years of experience, ...had the same shock, with the same system - but I'm afraid I will have to close this AC-related digression, otherwise the set of "AC dealers" in the aforementioned picture could be enlarged to "AC owners"; and, yes, I own an AC preamp, bought afterwards after I tried it at home)

I have not seen a single defence of the Nagra Stenheim demo from an owner or a dealer. It was possibly a poor demo.

The only statements I have seen are Stenheims are excellent cones, I think so too, and this has nothing to do with the Munich demo. I first heard them in Munich in 2015 and 16 and have said on this forum they are good since then.

There is an excellent Stenheim U2 CH set up in London that is quite superior to many cone systems I have heard. I once took a London visitor Sujay there, and Sujay too has rated it highly on the forum. So do people with similar exposure make similar conclusions? Yes. The ones who listen to this London set up think it's excellent, while those who listen to the one in Nagra in Munich think it's not. However all these opinions are shared and agreed on by non-owners/non-dealers without any debate.


As to your question, "should I attend Munich 2025, and what for ?" - you should only to have fun and tick it as part of the hobby. Do not make sonic decisions or purchase reject decisions on the back of that. That is difficult as some people want to use any data point they have, no matter how invalid, to help in their shortlist. It gives them a sense of comfort they used a logical strikeout process.