Music Appreciation USA vs. Europe

[LenWhite]

TAS (Alan Taffel) posts IMO an interesting article http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/why-munich-is-different/ addressing the differences between the Munich audio show and those in this country. The article also speaks to the differences between the way Americans and Europeans view music. It does appear to me Europeans have a much more encompassing music palette and possess a love of well reproduced music both live and reproduced that dramatically exceeds the majority of Americans. Perhaps it's because of the slower lifestyle and proliferation of small European towns. By contrast this country appears distracted by price/convenience and new technology. There are frequent discussions speaking to good audio being a niche in this country. Even many (most) live events with the exception of classical music are often more loud and piercing than musical IMO. Does anyone have any other thoughts as to why this cultural difference exists?

 

[JackD201]

An area I would be interested in would be the comparative importance given to the arts in typical elementary public school curriculums.

 

[bachrocks1685]

I spent a lot of time in Munich when I was a student at the University of Salzburg in Austria. I attended a language school in Munich for 5 weeks and had--ahem, not for my wife's ears--a German GF who attended the university there. Several thoughts come to mind:

1. "Extra Bavarium, Nulla Vita," which translates as "Outside Bavaria, there is no life." My GF's father, Dr. Eckart, used to say this a lot, and assuming I didn't muck up the morphology, he was always proud to express this thought in correct Latin. Obviously, there is life outside Bavaria, and there is music, too, but his words illustrate the feelings of many that Bavaria is unique. I know that for years after I left Europe, I kept saying to myself, "Munich is the best city in the world." Catch a glimpse of the snow-capped Alps majestically standing above the Munich skyline and you just might find yourself repeating Dr. Eckart's impeccable Latin, "Extra Bavarium, Nulla Vita."

2. And although Bavarians, and probably most Germans, deride the former King Ludwig II, his "insanity" for Wagner's music--in my mind, at least--places him simply on the far end of the music-loving continuum, which by chance, might just be the same force animating the modern day Homus Audiophilus. In my case, I had only discovered classical music in high school (I'm American), and I always felt a little strange telling people that in my circle of family and friends. But in Munich, I felt totally at home. I'm sure I'm exaggerating, but it seemed everyone there listened to and knew a lot about classical music. I know music is much more than just classical music, but for me, the fact that you could see and listen to classical concerts seemingly everywhere for very little money showed the beauty and utter seriousness of music in Munich, the administrative and cultural heart of Bavaria.

A last thought before leaving for work, Munich is unique. If you have never been there, give it a try. You might just fall in love with it.

ron

 

[Andre Marc]

TAS (Alan Taffel) posts IMO an interesting article http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/why-munich-is-different/ addressing the differences between the Munich audio show and those in this country. The article also speaks to the differences between the way Americans and Europeans view music. It does appear to me Europeans have a much more encompassing music palette and possess a love of well reproduced music both live and reproduced that dramatically exceeds the majority of Americans. Perhaps it's because of the slower lifestyle and proliferation of small European towns. By contrast this country appears distracted by price/convenience and new technology. There are frequent discussions speaking to good audio being a niche in this country. Even many (most) live events with the exception of classical music are often more loud and piercing than musical IMO. Does anyone have any other thoughts as to why this cultural difference exists?

In regards to classical music, there is no comparison.

Just look at all the rock musicians from the Europe who used overt classical influences in their music...

Yes, Deep Purple, ELP, The Moody Blues, Jethro Tull..and the list goes on and on on...

The curriculum here in elementary school is non existent. I took my first classical music course in college.

I have an ear for it because my father exposed me to it from a VERY young age...he explained the history of certain
pieces and let me listen to Stravinsky, Lalo, Rachmaninoff, Ravel, Saint Saens, and countless others.

Then he had to listen to my Beatles records..

I don't want to rant, but I am quite disappointed in the decent into garbage culture in this country...and this applies to the food,
the movies, TV, music, sports, and everything else.

It seems garishness and a low class mentality has set in as the norm. And because of that things that are utterly mediocre are elevated
to special status.

 

[cjfrbw]

Whether Europe is the cultural bitch-queen of the Western world compared to America is a question that could probably spawn another world war.

It is nice to experience places where the hard lessons of history have been distilled into the social fabric and comprise a social contract, so to speak, especially if one is on the favored sides of those contracts, and the traditions embrace wonderful artistic forms.

Maybe the European audio shows emphasize classical music and playback vs. lisping, close miked female vocalists with trilling elevator music dynamics, but Americans do tend to have larger listening rooms and favor robust audio solutions.

It is possible to insult anybody's audio taste, and some of the exposition music I hear at audio shows makes me brack, but there is also a lot of classical music that leaves me cold. Call me a philistine, I know what I like and don't like.

Orchestral music does seem to be the ultimate test of an audio system in terms of dynamics, presentation, and soft to loud, so maybe the Europeans favor music that is better test material for an audio system. Still, the audio shows are chasing the dollars of the economic elite, whether it is Europe or America. It is hard to make generalizations about something that is largely geared to an elite, unless one is and elitist groupie and likes to chase them.

 

[JackD201]

A well recorded track will play well on a good system whether it is sung in English, French, Cantonese or Klingon. In the here and now, one look at respective charts, it is the US that rules the roost. Sneaking under the english speaking world is latin music with it's own huge spanish speaking market.

As for appreciation of a broader range of music, or in other words having listeners with more open minds, I'm convinced it is exposure. Since my kids started taking piano lessons they've taken to classical like fish to water. What I love about their teacher is that he mixes in a lot of pop music with his lessons so the kids never get bored.

When I was in Sweden for a month I was surprised when one of my friends there just happened to say that almost all of them know how to play at least one musical instrument as it along with english is part of the school curriculum. When spring came in earnest too this small city of Karlstad where I was based, there were free live performances on so many corners I lost track. There was jazz, gentlemen on Cornets, children playing and dancing Flamenco, it was wonderful. Before our international delegation left, we were regaled by the Upsalla University Choir. The forbears of these students performed the ubiquitous Cantata Domino. I remember thinking, no wonder Proprius makes such good f-ing recordings, live sound is a part of daily life for them. Except winter of course!

 

[Bill Hart]

What works for an audio show doesn't necessarily explain musical taste or discernment of the general public. I doubt many casual, disinterested tourists wander into the Munich show and while some may be more music lovers than gear heads, I don't think you can make the leap from: better facility and layout for audio show to Europeans generally appreciate music better.
If you look at the history of art or architecture, most of the 'serious' stuff came from Europe for obvious reasons: America was a rough-shod colony that, as time progressed, allowed those with wealth to imitate their European forebearers. Think about the 'Grand Tour' that wealthy Americans took in the 19th or early 20th centuries, and the acquisition of European objects (the Morgan Library in New York or the Frick Museum are good examples).
With respect to music and tradition, it's hard to beat the great classical composers, many of whom were European. But, like art and architecture, it has been democratized, for better or worse. Frankly, though I have little regard for 'rap' and 'hip hop' (with a few exceptions), pop music has generally been driven by American taste. I think that's true, even though there are many great pop musicians from the UK (most of whom got their start from American rock and roll, race music or blues).
I'm not trying to be provincial about this- I dearly love many places in Europe and dream of spending my last years in a small village in Southern France or Italy. I like the sensibility of old culture. But, I think it's a leap to dismiss American listeners as musically ignorant. Whether it's music at a scholarly level, or simply playing a tune in the car, there are music lovers (and makers) everywhere. And America has had an overwhelmingly powerful influence in popular music for many decades, going back to the big band era, if not before.

 

[LenWhite]

IMO the quoted TAS article paragraph below appears to indicate considerably many more European men and women are interested in a wide range of music and well reproduced audio than Americans and the European elite. It would not surprise me if America's de-emphasis of music education particularly in K-12 has had a negative effect. Although I have attended live acoustic events at Vero Beach High School in Florida and Appalachian State in Boone NC where impressive facilities and performers were evident. So perhaps there's hope.

"In Europe, a hi fi system is still considered as essential as a washer/dryer, and a really good hi fi is aspirational. In America, audio systems are generally optional, even in well-to-do neighborhoods, and aspirations tend to lie elsewhere. Also, European couples still actively listen to music—together, even! Music is not merely something playing in the background, nor is it an isolationist pastime. This is why you see so many couples attending the show; European women have a stake in audio purchases that goes far beyond aesthetics."

 

[cjfrbw]

Just watched a video tour of the Munich Audio Show. Wow, rotten and missing teeth must be a European audio nerd fashion statement. Tiim De Paravicini makes a Sant Cruz homeless guy look pampered.

They are selling items for hundreds of thousand of Euros and they can't afford a dentist?

 

[mep]

Just watched a video tour of the Munich Audio Show. Wow, rotten and missing teeth must be a European audio nerd fashion statement. Tiim De Paravicini makes a Sant Cruz homeless guy look pampered.

They are selling items for hundreds of thousand of Euros and they can't afford a dentist?

I thought that was just a British and West Virgina tradition.

 

[Bill Hart]

Just watched a video tour of the Munich Audio Show. Wow, rotten and missing teeth must be a European audio nerd fashion statement. Tiim De Paravicini makes a Sant Cruz homeless guy look pampered.

They are selling items for hundreds of thousand of Euros and they can't afford a dentist?

Remember, the flouride in the water makes you dumber. So, smart and bad teeth, or Kardashian behind the wheel?
Life often presents tough choices.

 

[cjfrbw]

Remember, the flouride in the water makes you dumber. So, smart and bad teeth, or Kardashian behind the wheel?
Life often presents tough choices.

It does make the Euro audio nerd rotters have nasty, septic bites. Maybe if you argue with them too much they bite you with their broken fangs and you are dead in a week.

 

[Mosin]

Remember, the flouride in the water makes you dumber. So, smart and bad teeth, or Kardashian behind the wheel?
Life often presents tough choices.

I have always aspired to be a smarter American. In that quest, I have limited my liquid intake to Scotch, vodka, and tea. The tea is made with fluoridated water, and we must also recognize that modern American tea has an inherent amount of fluoride due to pollutants. Of course, English tea lacks all that nasty fluoride contamination.

My lifestyle experiment is to see if Scotch and vodka counteract the stupid parts of the tea, but allow the smarter parts of it shine through. So far, the verdict isn't in.

 

[cjfrbw]

Damn, we Americans may be uncultured buffoons from all the way back to De Toqueville, and stupid to boot, but a lot of us do have really nice teeth, even if they are fake as a starlet's implants.

 

[andromedaaudio]

The first appearance is what its all about, so yes teeth are important
Culture ??
Most magazines /dealers /importers in holland follow the us/english magazines , so europe leading ,i dont think so.
Richard wagner (inspiration)/ munich the cultural summit , ive seen a lot of historical documentairies about the combo and it isnt all glory.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

We are a backward, shallow, ignorant people, Americans. That explains why we've invented nothing in the last 200 years, why our economy is so weak compared to Europe's, and why our popular culture has been ignored and rejected by the world. I finally understand why the progress of the world is driven forward by Spanish technology, and the why people of the world watch Swedish movies and wait breathlessly for the Germans to blaze the next trail in popular music.

I've long ben wanting to understand why we're so dumb. Now I know; it's because we are not well-schooled in 200-year-old European music. We'll not test that notion nor European schoolchildren's knowledge of Defoe, Twain, Whitman, or their grasp of Parker, Davis and Armstrong. Wouldn't want to upset the delicate balance between Euro-jealousy and the American intellectual elite's highly-developed inferiority complex.

Tim

I almost forgot:

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

We are a backward, shallow, ignorant people, Americans. That explains why we've invented nothing in the last 200 years, why our economy is so weak compared to Europe's, and why our popular culture has been ignored and rejected by the world. I finally understand why the progress of the world is driven forward by Spanish technology, and the why people of the world watch Swedish movies and wait breathlessly for the Germans to blaze the next trail in popular music.

I've long ben wanting to understand why we're so dumb. Now I know; it's because we are not well-schooled in 200-year-old European music. We'll not test that notion nor European schoolchildren's knowledge of Defoe, Twain, Whitman, or their grasp of Parker, Davis and Armstrong. Wouldn't want to upset the delicate balance between Euro-jealousy and the American intellectual elite's highly-developed inferiority complex.

Tim

I almost forgot:

LOL...You're in fine form today Tim!

 

[andromedaaudio]

Tim europe is in crisis as well ,youth unemployment numbers in europe :
(Italy 37,8% , Portugal 38,2%) (Spain 55,7%, Greece 58,4%).
The "european elite " classical music lovers , come on tim ,quite a few are snobs at least in holland

 

[Alan Sircom]

In some respects, the grass is always greener on the other side, but Alan's right in that some parts of Europe are far more accepting of a diverse musical culture than the relatively narrow furrow ploughed by the average British or American (we gave the world the English language. Unfortunately, we also gave the world Simon Cowell). But it varies from country to country; you won't hear much free jazz but you will hear a lot of Fado in Lisbon, but you might hear the reverse in Oslo.

Many Europeans are proud of their cultural heritage, especially as it places their national pride in an increasingly federalised Europe (and doesn't come with the more 'challenging' ideas of nationalism that have connotations with that whole 1933-45 unpleasantness). It's hard to visit a city in mainland Europe that doesn't have a link to a famous dead white male composer (no matter how tenuous), and it's hard to find a city in mainland Europe that doesn't exploit that link with as much pride as Chicago does its blues heritage, or Liverpool does its Beatles link.

There is also a public-service culture endemic to European broadcasters, that comes from having state-funded networks. The UK likes to call this 'Reithian values' after Sir John Reith (1889-1971), the first Director General of the BBC, who insisted the goals of a public-service broadcaster was to 'Inform, educate and entertain' (in that order). While these values have been quietly sidelined in prime-time BBC broadcasting, they still have their influence both within the BBC and to public-service broadcasters across Europe. Which is why you might see 'highbrow' arts programming on television across Europe. This has even extended out to government-funded sponsorship of arts projects (in a manner not dissimilar to the kind of patronage that kept Mozart and Bach working), but a lot of this has been cut recently as austerity measures bite deep.

It's also worth noting the difference in school-age education systems has a relatively big influence on that appreciation for art and music. Many European countries support a school-age system that tracks what is known as the International Baccalaureate, which demands the student include subjects like languages, the arts and literature until they reach college age, and many universities continue this broad-spectrum educational approach during the student's freshman year.

The problem with all this is it's sometimes enforced culture. Beethoven's cultural relevance remains significant (the 'Ode to Joy' from Beethoven's Ninth being the European Anthem), but I sometimes question the relevance of someone in Nijmegen being forced to sit through Charlie Parker's Massey Hall concert, reading Chaucer, or being taught about the Moorish influence in the design of the Alhambra, if all they want to do is grow up to be a nurse.

 

[Bill Hart]

Alan: Point taken. In Palermo, all we heard was the Godfather theme song, played endlessly.