My dedicated audio room build - QuadDiffusor's Big Dig

Here's a rendering of the ceiling for determining the positions of the air conditioning outlets, showing extensive usage of quadratic diffusers; P23s x 8 on the front wall, P17s x 20 on the sidewalls, and P11s x 49 on the ceiling canopy, all constructed out of SOLID tropical hardwood sourced from Indonesia (not veneered plywood) with the voids inside chambers filled with dense, waterproofing-sprayed (to mitigate moisture driven deterioration) activated carbon pellets to dampen bass pressure waves.

Wood choices are ebony, sungkai, or teak; now evaluating pros/cons/costs.

Advantages of solid wood include:
- aesthetics and beauty, with contiguous grain structure in 3D throughout
- warping resistance of the thin dividing "fins"
- no VOC off-gassing
- higher density/mass, leading to less absorption of acoustic energy
- uniformity in color, post-varnishing

Disadvantages include:
- high cost

Trying really hard to make my room sound "world class" great! :cool:

Ceiling Perspective.jpg
 
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...nice! I searched around for sourcing on the carbon pellets, and man are they expensive. Primarily, shipping as I recall from a few years back. But I do like the concept, as you have described, although I don't recall the "waterproofing" step in my potential plan. Perhaps a good idea, relative to local environment. Very nice Q.
 
Here's a rendering of the ceiling for determining the positions of the air conditioning outlets, showing extensive usage of quadratic diffusers; P23s x 8 on the front wall, P17s x 20 on the sidewalls, and P11s x 49 on the ceiling canopy, all constructed out of SOLID tropical hardwood sourced from Indonesia (not veneered plywood) with the voids inside chambers filled with dense, waterproofing-sprayed (to mitigate moisture driven deterioration) activated carbon pellets to dampen bass pressure waves.

Wood choices are ebony, sungkai, or teak; now evaluating pros/cons/costs.

Advantages of solid wood include:
- aesthetics and beauty, with contiguous grain structure in 3D throughout
- warping resistance of the thin dividing "fins"
- no VOC off-gassing
- higher density/mass, leading to less absorption of acoustic energy
- uniformity in color, post-varnishing

Disadvantages include:
- high cost

Trying really hard to make my room sound "world class" great! :cool:

View attachment 144195
I am continually impressed by your dedication to excelence.. this is epic! However ss you would have noticed I am not a big fan of QRD .. so this looks like a nightmare to me :)
- you will get a very diffuse soundfield but it will not be correlated at all with the direct sound
- with all those timber blades I am guessing you will get an unpredictable bass absorbtion through vibration.. the common dimensions will means it's a specific fr
- the repeat of similar patterns will creating lobing in the reflected sound not unlike mtm speakers you don't care for
- it's very expensive and perhaps not visually conducive to a relaxing space.. I always feel a good acoustic design works well visually

I don't doubt that it will work ( and possibly pretty well) but the question is it the best approach and can the result be predicted .. I am not trying to be argumentative here but responding to your question for excellence.

I believe you really need to focus on the median plane .. say 400 mm above floor to say 1800 .. where the ear resides .. reflections out of that zone can be specular and correlated and retain life in the room.. general absorbtion can be added to these space to calm the room if needed
Similar with ceiling .. just the area of influence

You want the space to be calm but not lifeless
This would be a much cheaper path
My 2 bobs worth :)
 
Hi pjwd, your observations and opinions are very valuable, as you're helping me think through the issues from multiple angles. Pease continue to engage me!

After much deliberation, my verdict is to continue favoring P17 QRDs on the sidewalls instead of hemispherical diffusers due to the following desirables:

- attenuation of direct sound striking at a 45 degree of incidence by ~20dB (see chart below), more than sufficient to make the reflected sound inaudible, according to the principles of the precedence effect

- consistent response over a wide bandwidth of 250Hz - 3.5kHz, resulting in a spectrally neutral sound through the midrange and lower treble

- decorrelation of direct sound through comb filtering to increase perceived differences between direct and indirect sound

- avoiding the perception of lobing and out-of-phase reflections, by locating the listening position beyond the minimum distance, typically defined by 1.5-2.0 the wavelength of the lowest bandwidth of the QRD (250Hz wavelength of 7 feet x 2 = 14 feet minimum)

- the math: the sidewalls will be ~2.0m away laterally from the loudspeakers; laterally-projected soundwaves will travel diagonally over longer distances before striking the QRD P17s, then double that distance as travel diagonally towards the listening position, and in total travel more than 6.0m or 20ft

What might the alternatives be?
- absorption (frequency-specific, thus selective and non-linear absorption, most in the highs)
- scattering (typically, small geometries address only the high frequencies, leaving mids and lows untouched)
- untreated first reflections (high-energy phantom reflections)
- redirected first reflections (mid-energy phantom reflections)

All of the above alternatives seem to me to have their own idiosyncratic sonic signatures, departing from the ideals of consistency, neutrality, and predictability offered by the P17 QRDs.

Also, I believe that phase-correct reflections resemble mirror images in a "house of mirrors", creating undesirable duplicates which make it less easy to differentiate between the direct sound and indirect sounds through interference, particularly if the reflections are not attenuated sufficiently. Attenuation will also make the room will sound more "dead", especially if the levels and rates of absorption is not uniform across the frequency spectrum.

Phase-scrambled reflections, on the other hand, increases the contrast between the direct and indirect sounds without deadening the room, enhancing articulation and development of discrete 3D images in the soundstage. It's well documented and universally accepted that the "sound" of large and deep QRDs is extremely neutral, uncolored, and impart a very desirable characteristic of pushing the perceptible boundaries of a room far away, expanding the soundstage while enhancing the articulation and location of the instruments within. I hear this in abundance in my own listening room which is extensively treated with QRDs.

Admittedly, anchoring 10 large pieces of P17 QRDs on each sidewall is a very expensive proposition, but I don't believe it is misguided or risky because there is plenty of psychoacoustical science and rationale for this. Perhaps because of the expense and space required, exactly zero other audiophiles have even attempted doing this, and therefore none have ever heard its qualities to comment objectively?

Aesthetics wise, they will be off to the sides beyond the boundaries of peripheral vision, colored in a dark stain, and unlike horizontal stripes, its vertical slats will not trigger strange flickering neural-visual sensations originating in the retina. The listening environment will be zen-like in its quietness (I expect the ambient noise be sub-30dBA), and very much "alive" with its wonderfully exceptional acoustics.

Would appreciate any information on why phase-correlated sidewall reflections might be a definitively better solution!

P17.1 Screenshot 2023-07-09 131814.png
 
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...FWIW I sit theoretically "too close" to a pair of quad diffusors behind my chair, and have never noticed any "lobing" effect. Ditto from hifi friends seated in the G-spot. Following in awe, awaiting the next chapter, QD.
 
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There is of course another room acoustical technology that provides a third approach to dealing with low frequencies. Developed for and in use by well known film/recording/mixing studios (links to examples below), it is based on very high numbers per sf of non-parallel surfaces (DHDI ZR Acoustics). Since the secret appears to be a geometry that "deconstructs" the air the sound is riding on, panel thickness is not a key element as it is with conventional room treatments. Unfortunately data/measurements are only available to clients of the architectural firm that developed/designs with/deploys it (after signing an NDA), which (along with dislike of the marketing) is I assume why so few people posting on this forum have been willing to try it. As I've posted extensively, I found the "Sample Rate" and "Hybrid" panels to be superior to conventional room treatments, and deployed them in my listening room to the extent resources permitted. Whether or not one accepts the technical/marketing explanation, I remain puzzled given the blue chip client list that even audiophiles with deep pockets have not been willing to experiment with them - if only for spot applications as part of a larger conventional installation. The space savings alone compared with foot thick bass traps should make such experimentatin attractive. I highlighted the word "experiment" because I don't expect people to be able to "get their heads around" the concept, but hearing is believing. I found them to surpass conventional absorbers in dealing with reflections for example without deadening the room, and remain thrilled with the overall results in my purpose built dedicated basement listening room.

FYI:

https://deltahdesign.com/portfolio/


Cellciburn, I used an extensive suite of Delta Z acoustic panels in our high-end audio showroom in 2016. I was curious about Hansen's technology, but we loved how they looked. In my experience, the product has not caught on in the high-end community for a few reasons) high relative cost, and b) the diffusers are made of CNC MDF and have fragile corners that break off when you look at them. Cecillburn, our panel's combined diffusers/absorbers, worked well for that purpose.

As far as taming bass modes are concerned, we did not find them helpful. Traditional bass traps work well, e.g., ASC, which we use; however, they provide nowhere near the effectiveness and tunability of Shockwave room correction woofers. Per my disclosure below, I am self-interested; however, I make it a point never to comment on something we do not have considerable direct experience with.
 

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Hi pjwd, your observations and opinions are very valuable, as you're helping me think through the issues from multiple angles. Pease continue to engage me!

After much deliberation, my verdict is to continue favoring P17 QRDs on the sidewalls instead of hemispherical diffusers, due to the following desirables:

- attenuation of direct sound striking at 45 degree of incidence by ~20dB (see chart below), more than sufficient to make the reflected sound inaudible, according to the principles of the precedence effect

- consistent response over a wide bandwidth of 250Hz - 3.5kHz, resulting in a spectrally neutral sound

- decorrelation of direct sound through comb filtering, desirable to increase perceived differences between direct and scrambled/indirect

- avoiding the perception of lobing and out-of-phase reflections, by locating the listening position beyond the minimum distance, typically defined by 1.5-2.0 the wavelength of the lowest bandwidth of the QRD (250Hz wavelength of 7 feet x 2 = 14 feet minimum)

- the math: the sidewalls will be ~2.0m away laterally from the loudspeakers; laterally-projected soundwaves will travel diagonally over longer distances before striking the QRD P17s, then double that distance as travel diagonally towards the listening position, and in total travel more than 6.0m or 20ft

What might the alternatives be?
- absorption (frequency-specific, thus selective and non-linear absorption, most in the highs)
- scattering (typically, small geometries address only the high frequencies, leaving mids and lows untouched)
- untreated first reflections (high-energy phantom reflections)
- redirected first reflections (mid-energy phantom reflections)

All of the above alternatives seem to me to have their own idiosyncratic sonic signatures, departing from the ideals of consistency, neutrality, and predictability offered by the P17 QRDs.

Also, I believe that phase-correct reflections resemble mirror images in a "house of mirrors", creating undesirable duplicates which make it less easy to differentiate between the direct sound and indirect sounds through interference, particularly if the reflections are not attenuated sufficiently. But attenuation will make the room will sound more "dead", especially if the levels and rates of absorption is not uniform across the frequency spectrum.

Phase-scrambled reflections, on the other hand, increases the contrast between the direct and indirect sounds without deadening the room, enhancing articulation and development of discrete 3D images in the soundstage. It's well documented and universally accepted that the "sound" of large and deep QRDs is extremely neutral, uncolored, and impart a very desirable characteristic of pushing the perceptible boundaries of a room far away, expanding the soundstage while enhancing the articulation and location of the instruments within. I hear this in abundance in my own listening room which is extensively treated with QRDs.

Admittedly, anchoring 10 large pieces of P17 QRDs on each sidewall is a very expensive proposition, I don't believe it is misguided or risky because there is plenty of psychoacoustical science and rationale for this. Perhaps of the expense and space required, exactly zero other audiophiles have even attempted doing this, and therefore none have ever heard its qualities?

Aesthetics wise, they will be off to the sides beyond the boundaries of peripheral vision, colored in a dark stain, and unlike horizontal stripes, its vertical slats will not trigger strange flickering neural-visual sensations originating in the retina. The listening environment will be zen-like in its quietness (I expect the ambient noise be sub-30dBA), and very much "alive" with its wonderfully exceptional acoustics.

Would appreciate any information on why phase-correlated sidewall reflections might be a definitively better solution!

View attachment 144301
I know I am up against it arguing against qrd with someone whose has that as a handle :)
My slim knowledge is second hand, having worked with an excellent acoustic engineer on a number of projects. He introduced me to Tapio Lokki who has done some amazing research on concert halls. ( worth reading) The principals don't all transfer to a listening room but I believe most do on a reduced scale. The lateral reflections are very important to the experience of a hall .. they improve many aspects of the experience.. and it is ideal they corelate with direct sound .. in halls you have a genuine reverberent field and it will clash with direct sound if not corelated.
In a listening room you have 2 acoustics .. the recorded room and the listening room. You want a live sound in the room and an alignment of those 2 acoustics just makes sense to me. Having a component of non correlated sound in the chain surely will clash. The idea of a delay in reflections and then a corelated reveberent tail to support the direct sound provides an integrated continuum. In halls a delay of 80ms is considered ideal .. the usual figure for a room is 10ms but longer is better.

The analogy of mirrors is exactly how I think of the space but your ears are not everywhere, they are in one location and it's the "mirrors" to that spot that will influence the sound. By angling panels or just masking reflections you can have a calm zone in the listening spot while the rest of the space is quite live... It's sometimes called a reflection free zone but its more a reflection delay zone

Now having said that, as you note you have a large room with quite long reflection paths ... also qrd will drop the level quite a lot so non correlation may not be an issue and the room will sound great. But is it the optimum.

I have never been in an anechoic chamber but have been in recording sound stages that are heavily damped.. they are unervingly dead.
I would be concerned that the extensive use of qrd will drop the reflected sound levels in a similar way. The other thing about acoustics is that when you put in a lot of stuff there are unintended consequences. I suspect that you will get some strong suckouts at unpredictable frequencies from many similar size parts vibrating. In projects we sometimes found ourselves pulling stuff out because of this.
As your qrd are bespoke I guess you can't stage the manufacture ?
Enough waffle from me.. I normally wouldn't bat on like this but you did ask for engagement :)

Regardless it's going to be an awesome room
Cheers
Phil
 

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