My monitor/subwoofer system
- Thread starter Al M.
- Start date
Sure, Tang. Just don't try to have the monitor play loudly in a too big room. That will quickly show its limitations. But yes, in a small or relatively narrow medium sized room (mine is the latter type) it may have advantages, especially when the compared to bigger speaker is not perfectly set up, which becomes hard to do in a not so large room. That will depend on the speaker type and radiation pattern as well -- conventional cone speakers are very room dependent on their performance.
Hehe. I don't see the point of digtally sourced LPs. If I want the analog experience with LP, I want the real analog experience.
Ceassaro had a couple of small speakers in Munich that sounded very good. One was a floorstander and the other a MTM standmount.
Al says he is enjoying his “unnatural sound TM“ system. He describes it quite clearly in this system thread. He is naming his target, the sound he is trying to achieve, and explaining how to get there. I respect that.
Octave RE320 amp with KT120 tubes instead of KT 150
I have not posted on my system thread lately, but decided to do some catch-up. Below are my notes from June last year, as written then, about tube switches. I will post more updates soon.
Report June 20, 2022 on tubes
Usually I dismiss all the tube rolling talk on WBF, but lately it has gotten me thinking. I was wondering if this could be a quick pathway to a fuller tonal balance.
I first tried replacing the JJ ECC82/12AU7 driver tubes in my Octave power amp with 1950's RCA Black Plate 12AU7 tubes which are "highly sought after for their sweet and rich harmonic tone" (quote from Tube Depot). Yet obviously the modern JJ tubes are already excellent. Differences, if there were any, were very minor. This does not hold for the next tube switch…
Some years ago Ian (MadFloyd) had changed the power tubes in his CAT JL7 amps from KT150 to KT120 tubes and reported a better midrange tonality. He also thought the treble sounded better, as there had been an artifact with the KT150 tubes, a tinkeling in the treble, that had bothered him (I had not heard problems in his system, and he said that he could not hear this artifact from my Octave amp with KT150 tubes). The only drawback that he heard was less deep bass than with the KT150 tubes. Ken Stevens, the designer of the CAT amps, had suggested that the KT120 tubes were better and had encouraged the switch.
Ian generously agreed to bring four of his KT120 tubes to my place the last time he visited. When we tried them I immediately heard a big difference (I adjusted to correct bias after 10 min warm-up). Timbres sounded thicker and more natural, right away audible with light female voices and with violin. Also, midbass seemed to be more fleshed out, something that we heard right away on the energetic rock of The Warning, a Mexican girl band that we both like. We did notice less treble energy which caused some muffling of voices on The Warning – those skinny girls have surprisingly low voices –, but that was readily amended with adjustment of speaker toe-in, so easily accomplished with monitors on stands (changing speaker positioning more drastically, involving lifting the 75 lb heavy speakers and their even heavier stands, is a different matter). – Having to toe in the speakers a bit more is actually a very welcome aspect in my system context, since this gives me more wiggle room with changes in the acoustics between winter and summer months. In the dry winter months I often had run out of options to dampen excessive treble without further deadening of the room, as toe-out of the speakers had already been complete.
After this quick first impression I listened some more to those KT120 tubes, but it became obvious that those first impressions held and that what I heard with the Octave amp featuring them as power tubes simply was quite superior to what I had heard with the KT150 tubes, mirroring Ian’s experience and that of Ken Stevens, the designer of the CAT amps, who had tried them only in triode mode vs the KT150 tubes in the same mode (he does not like the pentode mode that the tubes in my Octave amp operate in – every designer has their own preferences and biases, and is passionate about them).
Thus, I soon ordered from Upscale Audio KT120 tubes for myself, and therefore did not have to put many hours on Ian’s tubes. I decided to buy cryo-treated ones, as recommended on Upscale’s website:
Cryogenically Treated Vacuum Tubes
CRYOGENICALLY TREATED VACUUM TUBES. DONE TO UPSCALE AUDIO STANDARDS! Most of you already know that Upscale Audio is the premier destination for expertise and availability of vacuum tubes for high-end audio equipment. So when we offer services and options, you can be guaranteed that it represents...
upscaleaudio.com
A response from Upscale’s tech to an inquiry suggested that customers report break-in to take less long after cryo-treatment and that tube life is extended.
Break-in was easy. On the new tubes, midrange tonality, like the one of Ian’s tubes, was there right away (I started with Grieg violin, see below), and after 3 hours I got the midbass, and dynamics started to blossom. While midbass and especially dynamics fluctuated some more during break-in, after about 50 – 100 hours of break-in they became stable and excellent. I love the KT 120 tubes! The bias that was adjusted soon after putting in the new tubes has stayed stable.
Everything sounds fuller and richer, voices sound as if they are lowered in register but it sounds more appropriate and real. Darker too, but with same openness and transparency as before. Not all voices are affected the same way; Muddy Waters for example already had sounded great, and timbre hasn't changed that much. Violin on the Grieg sonatas (Bridge Recordings) sounds as if it's a different instrument, and to my ears far more believable. Also, it has a thick treble register, more like in real life.
Left hand piano intro on the first track of Carla Bley “Life Goes On” sounds powerful, perhaps even more resonant that with the KT150, even though it was great there as well (low midrange was not the problem with those tubes, the higher parts of the midrange were). The tenor sax tone on this recording now is incredible. Much deeper and fuller tone, again far more believable. I’ve never had such sax sound in my system.
The bass clarinet on the second track of "Sera Una Noche" (MA Recordings) sounds amazing, the male singer’s voice just stunning. It is a relatively high voice, but now sounds with much more natural weight.
While the set of complete Beethoven string quartets with the Ebene Quartet had sounded very good already with the KT150 tubes, especially after moving the speakers closer together, there was still some unpleasant thinness and peakiness in the high notes of the violins. Now the tone is much more convincing and complete, from top to bottom, from the low register of the cello to the high notes of the violin. In fact, while the cello had already sounded very good, the KT120 reveal that there had been some bloat in the lower registers of the instrument with the KT150.
The CD of Choral Works by Peter Maxwell-Davies (BBC Singers, label Collins) is full of beautiful music, and the choir voices always sounded harmonically rich and saturated. Yet there is one track, “Corpus Christi, With Cat & Mouse” where, in contrast to the full choir sound, female solo voices had always sounded thin. Now for the first time, through all my system iterations (which had included a parallel push-pull 2A3 triode amp as well), the female voices sound convincing, having shed their thinness. The choir is recorded in a large space, with excellent spatial depth, and of course you don’t get the fullness of solo voices heard in a smaller space and more upfront. Yet now the fullness of female solo voices seems appropriate to the acoustics.
On another choral CD, the Requiem by Eybler (stunning music from a contemporary genius and personal friend of Mozart), the choir had sounded somewhat ethereal at times. Now it sounds confortably grounded, and solo voices have lost a touch of brittleness.
Overall, there is considerably more authority of sound, more of a "large speaker" sound. All the thinness in the upper midrange that I had been complaining about more recently seems gone. Interrestingly, Ken Stevens also reported, in triode mode, a “slightly pinched midrange quality (almost lean)” of the KT150 tube compared to the KT120.
(cont.)
(cont.)
A greater authority in the mid-bass adds to more of a “large speaker” sensation as well. It is not obvious on all material, as the KT150 had already done quite a good job, but when there is added weight, it is very welcome. In some cases bass is also cleaner and more articulate with the KT120.
What about the deep bass? It is known to be somewhat lacking compared to the KT150. Yet if that is the case, in my system configuration I do not notice any of that. The deep bass comes from the subwoofers, which are driven by the Octave preamp, bypassing the KT120 tube equipped power amp. The deep bass on Billie Eilish, for example, is still all there in all its saturated, earth-shaking glory.
In the midrange, there is also elimination of what appears to be a tonal artifact. On the Bach violin sonatas and partitas there had been an, admittedly beguiling, inner glow to the sound of the instrument, which I attributed to the particular acoustic space of the church that the performances were recorded in. I had heard this “inner glow” also at the beginning of Stravinsky’s ballet “Orpheus” (Naxos, Robert Craft cond.), when the horns and woodwinds enter the music. It sounds nice, but after hearing the KT120 on these pieces where this inner glow is not present, but without which the music appears to sound more real, I have decided that it is probably a “technicolor” artifact of the KT150.
The sound with the KT120 is very clean. Treble does not have a slightly grating quality anymore that had been somewhat irritating, depending on the music. I had wrongly attributed that to the Berylium tweeters of my speakers; from Ian’s system I know that this is not a problem of the Yggdrasil DAC. The high treble is also thicker, easily audible on triangles which now sound more like the real thing – a thick triangle sound often struck me live as being quite different from the usual reproduced sound at home.
Throughout the midrange and treble there is less distortion, and more effortlessness. Overall there is a more relaxed listening with the KT120, but Jimi Hendrix’s guitar still cuts through like crazy. It has lost nothing of its appropriate aggressiveness (which unfortunately is blunted on a number of systems).
The dynamics are excellent and equal to the KT150 tubes, both in the micro-and the macro-range. Certainly, in some instances the dynamic presentation is somewhat different as the tonal balance is weighted lower with the KT120 tubes, but overall, using approriate test tracks, it is obvious that the dynamics of either tube do not cede ground to the other.
Spatial presentation of the two types of tubes hardly differs. While the KT150 due to its tonal balance has a bit more spatial “airiness” at times, presentation of spatial depth is virtually identical. It is excellent with both tubes. Orchestral layering, depending on the recording, is amazing. I never heard the lack of spatial “halo” with the KT150 that Ken Stevens complains about (with the tube in triode mode), and both the KT120 and KT150 tubes are quite equal in that. Forward sounding recordings are basically the same in that spatial character on both tubes.
The resolution of timbral micro-detail and of spatial separation of instruments, all under the larger umbrella of “detail”, is not less on the KT120 tubes, contrary to some reports. Yet is is also not greater than with the KT150 tubes, which Ken Stevens (in triode mode) found lacking in comparison. Both tubes excel in detail.
Certainly, not with all amplifiers and not in the context of all amplifier/speaker matching the KT120 necessarily will be preferred. Yet overall it is obvious that, with their weightier tonal balance, the KT120 tubes are a much better fit in my particular system context and confirm my overall system choice!
I have bought 9 more matched KT120 tubes from Upscale Audio (yielding two pairs of 4 plus a spare).
One minor thing: As you can see from the above pictures, the KT120 certainly do not look as sexy in the Octave amp as the oval KT150 tubes, yet you forget pretty quickly about that. They still look quite good and distinctive.
A greater authority in the mid-bass adds to more of a “large speaker” sensation as well. It is not obvious on all material, as the KT150 had already done quite a good job, but when there is added weight, it is very welcome. In some cases bass is also cleaner and more articulate with the KT120.
What about the deep bass? It is known to be somewhat lacking compared to the KT150. Yet if that is the case, in my system configuration I do not notice any of that. The deep bass comes from the subwoofers, which are driven by the Octave preamp, bypassing the KT120 tube equipped power amp. The deep bass on Billie Eilish, for example, is still all there in all its saturated, earth-shaking glory.
In the midrange, there is also elimination of what appears to be a tonal artifact. On the Bach violin sonatas and partitas there had been an, admittedly beguiling, inner glow to the sound of the instrument, which I attributed to the particular acoustic space of the church that the performances were recorded in. I had heard this “inner glow” also at the beginning of Stravinsky’s ballet “Orpheus” (Naxos, Robert Craft cond.), when the horns and woodwinds enter the music. It sounds nice, but after hearing the KT120 on these pieces where this inner glow is not present, but without which the music appears to sound more real, I have decided that it is probably a “technicolor” artifact of the KT150.
The sound with the KT120 is very clean. Treble does not have a slightly grating quality anymore that had been somewhat irritating, depending on the music. I had wrongly attributed that to the Berylium tweeters of my speakers; from Ian’s system I know that this is not a problem of the Yggdrasil DAC. The high treble is also thicker, easily audible on triangles which now sound more like the real thing – a thick triangle sound often struck me live as being quite different from the usual reproduced sound at home.
Throughout the midrange and treble there is less distortion, and more effortlessness. Overall there is a more relaxed listening with the KT120, but Jimi Hendrix’s guitar still cuts through like crazy. It has lost nothing of its appropriate aggressiveness (which unfortunately is blunted on a number of systems).
The dynamics are excellent and equal to the KT150 tubes, both in the micro-and the macro-range. Certainly, in some instances the dynamic presentation is somewhat different as the tonal balance is weighted lower with the KT120 tubes, but overall, using approriate test tracks, it is obvious that the dynamics of either tube do not cede ground to the other.
Spatial presentation of the two types of tubes hardly differs. While the KT150 due to its tonal balance has a bit more spatial “airiness” at times, presentation of spatial depth is virtually identical. It is excellent with both tubes. Orchestral layering, depending on the recording, is amazing. I never heard the lack of spatial “halo” with the KT150 that Ken Stevens complains about (with the tube in triode mode), and both the KT120 and KT150 tubes are quite equal in that. Forward sounding recordings are basically the same in that spatial character on both tubes.
The resolution of timbral micro-detail and of spatial separation of instruments, all under the larger umbrella of “detail”, is not less on the KT120 tubes, contrary to some reports. Yet is is also not greater than with the KT150 tubes, which Ken Stevens (in triode mode) found lacking in comparison. Both tubes excel in detail.
Certainly, not with all amplifiers and not in the context of all amplifier/speaker matching the KT120 necessarily will be preferred. Yet overall it is obvious that, with their weightier tonal balance, the KT120 tubes are a much better fit in my particular system context and confirm my overall system choice!
I have bought 9 more matched KT120 tubes from Upscale Audio (yielding two pairs of 4 plus a spare).
One minor thing: As you can see from the above pictures, the KT120 certainly do not look as sexy in the Octave amp as the oval KT150 tubes, yet you forget pretty quickly about that. They still look quite good and distinctive.
Upgrade of Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC to Schiit Yggdrasil LIM DAC
This is an update from October 2022, in my "catch-up" series that started a few days ago.
The difference between the Yggdrasil versions (the former Analog 2 DAC is now called OG) is explained on the Schiit website (now featuring the Yggdrasil+ DAC, below link goes directly to it):
At first I heard the LIM (Less Is More) DAC in October 2021, and I reported back then in the comments section on this page, below the review of the DAC (scroll down about 2/5 of the page):
audiophilestyle.com
My initial impressions were negative, perhaps from an insufficiently broken in unit, but then I heard the LIM DAC again in September 2022, with a vastly more favorable impression that caused me to order the LIM boards which a friend installed for me last October (Schiit DACs are indeed upgradeable just as the manufacturer advertises).
That second report of comparison between the two DAC versions (from Sept 16, 2022) is found also in the above link, if you scroll down about 3/5 of the page.
I am still very happy with this change. A major upgrade in sound, which only cost me $ 500 with taxes and shipping.
This is an update from October 2022, in my "catch-up" series that started a few days ago.
The difference between the Yggdrasil versions (the former Analog 2 DAC is now called OG) is explained on the Schiit website (now featuring the Yggdrasil+ DAC, below link goes directly to it):
At first I heard the LIM (Less Is More) DAC in October 2021, and I reported back then in the comments section on this page, below the review of the DAC (scroll down about 2/5 of the page):
Schiit Audio Yggdrasil Less is More Review
It is no secret that I have been a big fan of Mike Moffat and his DAC designs over the years. Way back when, near the infancy of digital playback, I purchased a Theta Digital DS Pro Basic DAC. Hooking that up via the coax digital output of my Phillips CD player was a revelation. Loved the deep b...
audiophilestyle.com
My initial impressions were negative, perhaps from an insufficiently broken in unit, but then I heard the LIM DAC again in September 2022, with a vastly more favorable impression that caused me to order the LIM boards which a friend installed for me last October (Schiit DACs are indeed upgradeable just as the manufacturer advertises).
That second report of comparison between the two DAC versions (from Sept 16, 2022) is found also in the above link, if you scroll down about 3/5 of the page.
I am still very happy with this change. A major upgrade in sound, which only cost me $ 500 with taxes and shipping.
What is Ian's impression ? Has he upgrade/ downgraded his Iggy ?Upgrade of Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 DAC to Schiit Yggdrasil LIM DAC
This is an update from October 2022, in my "catch-up" series that started a few days ago.
The difference between the Yggdrasil versions (the former Analog 2 DAC is now called OG) is explained on the Schiit website (now featuring the Yggdrasil+ DAC, below link goes directly to it):
At first I heard the LIM (Less Is More) DAC in October 2021, and I reported back then in the comments section on this page, below the review of the DAC (scroll down about 2/5 of the page):
Schiit Audio Yggdrasil Less is More Review
It is no secret that I have been a big fan of Mike Moffat and his DAC designs over the years. Way back when, near the infancy of digital playback, I purchased a Theta Digital DS Pro Basic DAC. Hooking that up via the coax digital output of my Phillips CD player was a revelation. Loved the deep b...
My initial impressions were negative, perhaps from an insufficiently broken in unit, but then I heard the LIM DAC again in September 2022, with a vastly more favorable impression that caused me to order the LIM boards which a friend installed for me last October (Schiit DACs are indeed upgradeable just as the manufacturer advertises).
That second report of comparison between the two DAC versions (from Sept 16, 2022) is found also in the above link, if you scroll down about 3/5 of the page.
I am still very happy with this change. A major upgrade in sound, which only cost me $ 500 with taxes and shipping.
I've upgraded my Yggy to the LIM and then very recently to the LIM+. The latter has a NOS mode but for all practical purposes it makes no difference to the sound. The upgrade from the OG to the LIM was significant though! The LIM is much much better.
Yes, much better, even though the Analog 2 (OG) was no slouch either by any means. Our friend who upgraded to the LIM first, and whose unit we auditioned in our systems, had upgraded from first-generation Yggy to the Analog 2 boards previously. So that makes 3 out of 3. Three switches among three people who have heard the LIM.
Of course, Joe Whip, the reviewer in the link above, made the switch as well, and so did others.
Just for fun I tried last month my 30 years old JM Lab PS 5.1 monitors in my main system together with 4 REL's Carbon Special
not yet, have to work further on integration of monitors with subsNow the trios are up for sale??
The funny thing is that today market value of PS 5.1 monitors is less than costs one of my power cords in the main system.
Nice gear Octave .
That HP 700 / RE320 is a very nice combo .
How would you describe the sonic differences between for example the CAT pre / JL7 combo you heard at Ian and your octave pre / power ?
That HP 700 / RE320 is a very nice combo .
How would you describe the sonic differences between for example the CAT pre / JL7 combo you heard at Ian and your octave pre / power ?
Thanks.
Hard to say. We have not compared the two combos in a single system.
Have you compared the JL7 to a JL2 signature? Just wondering the difference...
I have written about the JL5 black path ,which i have now as to how it compares to my old JL2 mk2 sign
In the CAT forum.
I still have to try the 4 ohm tap though on the cat power amp .
But coming back to Octave i heard the Jubilee combo on many occasions at a dealer and also the lower priced pre power amps .
I think its fantastic tube gear , neutral and transparent
Cat jl5
Here is a review of the CAT JL5 by a dutch reviewer. He liked my speakers but due to these being big / transport issues it never became a proper review. I could see myself buy a second hand JL5 / black path and keep my JL2 sign but put 6550 s in them instead of the KT120 i have now...
www.whatsbestforum.com
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