My monitor/subwoofer system

[Al M.]

Raising the speakers in height

This is an update from January 2023.

The Sound Anchors stands for my monitors were on single concrete platforms. For a picture, see for example post #693:

My monitor/subwoofer system

(cont.) Some skeptics may say that the real source for distortions could be the digital. I know that this is not the case. Ian (Madfloyd) has the same DAC, and even before the modifications addressing reduction of electronic noise that he applied to his unit it had sounded free of distortion in...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Reading about speaker height and the size of instruments on WBF, as well as given my feeling that the soundstage from my speakers could be higher -- it seemed that I was looking straight at the musicians rather than at them on a stage -- inspired me to do something that I should have tried years ago. That is, raising my speakers, to a level of what I judged to be the tweeter above the ears.

I went to Home Depot and bought another two of the 16" by 16" concrete tiles that are 1.75" high (expense 10 bucks total). I put them on top of the first set of tiles, just like I have two sets of concrete tiles under each of my subwoofers. With that change, I also had to adjust for more speaker toe-in to achieve a correct balance again.

The result was astonishing:

• More finesse of midrange timbre, even less hardness than lately. More midrange detail, and a more natural presentation of it.
• Smoother transient response, but still incisive when needed. Really obvious on string quartets, for example.
• More body and fullness of sound, yet at the same time a more airy see-through quality in the midrange. Even though also obvious on other material, this is especially noticeable on orchestral strings.
• Yet less distortion than before. More effortlessness, to the extent that it reminds me of much larger speakers.
• Part of the overall improvement is that I also moved the speakers forward an inch. But raising the speakers had an even more significant effect.
• Last but not least, the soundstage is raised, to the extent that you feel more like at a concert.

The greater effortlessness is particularly notable on orchestral music. This was the last step needed, after many prior improvements in that direction, for the monitor/sub combo to reproduce orchestral music with ease and without strain, removing my last major concern about the monitors. Big win! Now I have the feeling that my choice of speaker system was -- for my room and my taste -- an excellent one for ALL music, from girl with guitar, small scale chamber music and piano over rock, jazz and heavy electronica to large-scale orchestral.

Here are photos, all taken from the listening seat:

 

[Al M.]

Further update from January 2023

I worked to make my soundstage wider. Given that I now have more speaker toe-in I thought this gives me more leeway to move the speakers a bit closer to the sidewalls again, without once more introducing room distortion. I was right.

Yet moving the speakers 4 inches apart (2 inches each) proved to be too much. I got a very wide soundstage, but impact and presence diminished. Also, the bass was weaker.

But moving the speakers 2 inches apart (1 inch each) seems to be the Goldilocks position. Significantly wider soundstage (even though not super wide) and enhanced spatial resolution of simultaneous musical strands, both of which is great especially for orchestral music, but no apparent drawbacks as compared to before. Yet in order to avoid drawbacks, including loss of presence, I also had to move the speakers yet another inch forward compared to the position of speakers closer together. This seems to really work for any music. It also makes intimate music yet more so.

The above photos in my previous post are recent, reflecting the current speaker position.

 

[Lagonda]

Raising the speakers in height

This is an update from January 2023.

The Sound Anchors stands for my monitors were on single concrete platforms. For a picture, see for example post #693:

My monitor/subwoofer system

(cont.) Some skeptics may say that the real source for distortions could be the digital. I know that this is not the case. Ian (Madfloyd) has the same DAC, and even before the modifications addressing reduction of electronic noise that he applied to his unit it had sounded free of distortion in...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Reading about speaker height and the size of instruments on WBF, as well as given my feeling that the soundstage from my speakers could be higher -- it seemed that I was looking straight at the musicians rather than at them on a stage -- inspired me to do something that I should have tried years ago. That is, raising my speakers, to a level of what I judged to be the tweeter above the ears.

I went to Home Depot and bought another two of the 16" by 16" concrete tiles that are 1.75" high (expense 10 bucks total). I put them on top of the first set of tiles, just like I have two sets of concrete tiles under each of my subwoofers. With that change, I also had to adjust for more speaker toe-in to achieve a correct balance again.

The result was astonishing:

• More finesse of midrange timbre, even less hardness than lately. More midrange detail, and a more natural presentation of it.
• Smoother transient response, but still incisive when needed. Really obvious on string quartets, for example.
• More body and fullness of sound, yet at the same time a more airy see-through quality in the midrange. Even though also obvious on other material, this is especially noticeable on orchestral strings.
• Yet less distortion than before. More effortlessness, to the extent that it reminds me of much larger speakers.
• Part of the overall improvement is that I also moved the speakers forward an inch. But raising the speakers had an even more significant effect.
• Last but not least, the soundstage is raised, to the extent that you feel more like at a concert.

The greater effortlessness is particularly notable on orchestral music. This was the last step needed, after many prior improvements in that direction, for the monitor/sub combo to reproduce orchestral music with ease and without strain, removing my last major concern about the monitors. Big win! Now I have the feeling that my choice of speaker system was -- for my room and my taste -- an excellent one for ALL music, from girl with guitar, small scale chamber music and piano over rock, jazz and heavy electronica to large-scale orchestral.

Here are photos, all taken from the listening seat:

View attachment 106275


View attachment 106276

View attachment 106277

Try painting them black, it makes them look high-tech !

 

[Al M.]

Try painting them black, it makes them look high-tech !

Interesting suggestion . In the current form the platforms do look a bit pedestrian indeed.

 

[Lagonda]

Interesting suggestion . In the current form the platforms do look a bit pedestrian indeed.

The center piece in my "equipment rack" is made of concrete tile, cemented together on the house foundation, trough a hole cut in the wood floor. My speakers are currently siting on 600 lbs of concrete tile all painted black. I hope i don't have to cut up the floor in this room, it is so pretty,

 

[Al M.]

The center piece in my "equipment rack" is made of concrete tile, cemented together on the house foundation, trough a hole cut in the wood floor. My speakers are currently siting on 600 lbs of concrete tile all painted black. I hope i don't have to cut up the floor in this room, it is so pretty,

Looks amazing!

 

[Al M.]

BTW, when I said lack of strain on orchestral music, I should mention that I listen at rather loud levels to it, with peaks around 95-97 dB (C-weighted) *), with an occasional foray into 100 dB. It's much easier to get effortless sound at even just 5-10 dB lower levels.

Just now I was listening to Black Sabbath, A Bit Of Finger/Sleeping Village/Warning (last track on first album), with peaks at 95 dB.

_____________________

*) Reed factory calibrated SPL meter

 

[Lagonda]

Looks amazing!

Could use another coat of paint, but in the semidarkness of the listening room, you can't tell !

 

[morricab]

Raising the speakers in height

This is an update from January 2023.

The Sound Anchors stands for my monitors were on single concrete platforms. For a picture, see for example post #693:

My monitor/subwoofer system

(cont.) Some skeptics may say that the real source for distortions could be the digital. I know that this is not the case. Ian (Madfloyd) has the same DAC, and even before the modifications addressing reduction of electronic noise that he applied to his unit it had sounded free of distortion in...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Reading about speaker height and the size of instruments on WBF, as well as given my feeling that the soundstage from my speakers could be higher -- it seemed that I was looking straight at the musicians rather than at them on a stage -- inspired me to do something that I should have tried years ago. That is, raising my speakers, to a level of what I judged to be the tweeter above the ears.

I went to Home Depot and bought another two of the 16" by 16" concrete tiles that are 1.75" high (expense 10 bucks total). I put them on top of the first set of tiles, just like I have two sets of concrete tiles under each of my subwoofers. With that change, I also had to adjust for more speaker toe-in to achieve a correct balance again.

The result was astonishing:

• More finesse of midrange timbre, even less hardness than lately. More midrange detail, and a more natural presentation of it.
• Smoother transient response, but still incisive when needed. Really obvious on string quartets, for example.
• More body and fullness of sound, yet at the same time a more airy see-through quality in the midrange. Even though also obvious on other material, this is especially noticeable on orchestral strings.
• Yet less distortion than before. More effortlessness, to the extent that it reminds me of much larger speakers.
• Part of the overall improvement is that I also moved the speakers forward an inch. But raising the speakers had an even more significant effect.
• Last but not least, the soundstage is raised, to the extent that you feel more like at a concert.

The greater effortlessness is particularly notable on orchestral music. This was the last step needed, after many prior improvements in that direction, for the monitor/sub combo to reproduce orchestral music with ease and without strain, removing my last major concern about the monitors. Big win! Now I have the feeling that my choice of speaker system was -- for my room and my taste -- an excellent one for ALL music, from girl with guitar, small scale chamber music and piano over rock, jazz and heavy electronica to large-scale orchestral.

Here are photos, all taken from the listening seat:

View attachment 106275


View attachment 106276

View attachment 106277

What does the vertical off-axis dispersion of this model Ref 3a look like?

 

[Al M.]

What does the vertical off-axis dispersion of this model Ref 3a look like?

I haven't found measurements online for the Reflector monitors; there are only ones for the MM DeCapo monitors but those have a different geometry.

 

[Al M.]

Raising the height of the speakers came with a twist (Update March 2023):

Earlier this month I decided to actually measure the height of the tweeter vs height of my ears in the listening chair with measuring tape. The result was very surprising. The distance from the floor to my ears (ear canal) is 42.5 inches. The distance from the floor to the tweeter is 42.5 inches as well! (This is double- and triple-checked.)

This means that now the tweeter is at ear (canal) height rather than elevated above the ears as I had assumed when I performed the change in January, and previously it had been almost two inches below the ear (canal), rather than at ear height! No wonder it did not sound quite right.

Yet measurement vs. visual perception is rather confusing to me. Above photos are taken from the listening seat, and they pretty much convey what I see sitting in that chair. The tweeter seems to be above eye height - yet it could be that, when looking at the tweeter, the eye is actually diverted upwards to the upper edge of the speaker which is just above the tweeter, and that this creates an illusion of the tweeter being higher. Yet even when trying to discount that possible optical illusion, the tweeter seems at minimum at eye height -- it certainly does not seem at all that the tweeter is below the eye. But that must actually be the case since the tweeter is at measured ear canal height, and my ear canals are below the eyes, as typical for humans (in my case about 1.5 inches).

It is also worth noting that none of my audiophile visitors over the years had ever suggested, before I made the current adjustment, that my tweeters are positioned too low by sight. I am also average height and not much taller than others, so this falls away as a clear option to explain the discrepancy as well.

Lesson learned: If you really want to know the height of tweeters vs ears, you need to measure, not rely on a visual estimate, which can be misleading.

 

[PeterA]

It is also worth noting that none of my audiophile visitors over the years had ever suggested, before I made the current adjustment, that my tweeters are positioned too low by sight. I am also average height and not much taller than others, so this falls away as a clear option to explain the discrepancy as well.

Lesson learned: If you really want to know the height of tweeters vs ears, you need to measure, not rely on a visual estimate, which can be misleading.

Al, I actually think that I am the person who suggested you put your speakers up on those concrete platforms. Perhaps I suggested steel originally rather than those concrete pavers. At the time we discussed the change in height and you commented that it was very positive change.

Ron and I visited you together. I know I am shorter than you by an inch or two and Ron is shorter than I am. Ian and Tasos are also not as tall as you. Your old tweeter position may well have been closer to our eye-levels then to your eye level. Your tweeters always appeared to be about at my eye level. Now it is taller and is at your eye level. I’m glad this change in height and subsequent adjustments in spacing and angle are a nice improvement in sound quality for you.

 

[Al M.]

Al, I actually think that I am the person who suggested you put your speakers up on those concrete platforms.

Yes, you did, thank you!

 

[morricab]

Raising the height of the speakers came with a twist (Update March 2023):

Earlier this month I decided to actually measure the height of the tweeter vs height of my ears in the listening chair with measuring tape. The result was very surprising. The distance from the floor to my ears (ear canal) is 42.5 inches. The distance from the floor to the tweeter is 42.5 inches as well! (This is double- and triple-checked.)

This means that now the tweeter is at ear (canal) height rather than elevated above the ears as I had assumed when I performed the change in January, and previously it had been almost two inches below the ear (canal), rather than at ear height! No wonder it did not sound quite right.

Yet measurement vs. visual perception is rather confusing to me. Above photos are taken from the listening seat, and they pretty much convey what I see sitting in that chair. The tweeter seems to be above eye height - yet it could be that, when looking at the tweeter, the eye is actually diverted upwards to the upper edge of the speaker which is just above the tweeter, and that this creates an illusion of the tweeter being higher. Yet even when trying to discount that possible optical illusion, the tweeter seems at minimum at eye height -- it certainly does not seem at all that the tweeter is below the eye. But that must actually be the case since the tweeter is at measured ear canal height, and my ear canals are below the eyes, as typical for humans (in my case about 1.5 inches).

It is also worth noting that none of my audiophile visitors over the years had ever suggested, before I made the current adjustment, that my tweeters are positioned too low by sight. I am also average height and not much taller than others, so this falls away as a clear option to explain the discrepancy as well.

Lesson learned: If you really want to know the height of tweeters vs ears, you need to measure, not rely on a visual estimate, which can be misleading.

Is your floor flat?

 

[Al M.]

Is your floor flat?

Yes, it is.

 

[Al M.]

Re-adjusting subwoofer settings

After the recent repositioning of my monitors on both the vertical and the horizontal planes I knew that I would have to re-adjust my subwoofers as well for optimized synching with the main speakers. I did play around a bit more intensely, and changed the phase setting from 35 degrees to 55 degrees; at the same time I turned down the volume just a tiny bit. In my particular set-up and room this accentuates the midbass more and deemphasizes the low bass. The new setting is very welcome particularly on rock, but attenuates a few slightly boomy situations with double basses on some classical recordings as well. Of course, such changes have to be checked with a wide variety of music on many recordings in order to make sure they work universally and do not turn up unwelcome surprises (even though a few minor compromises are, as always, unavoidable). After several hours of doing so, and living with the changes for a while (prompting further tiny volume adjustments along the way), I decided that this works.

The last few days I made another change, which is re-adjusting the extreme low frequency (e.l.f.) trim setting (great that those JL Audio subs are so adjustable). Last year I had arrived at turning the knob all the way down, resulting in an attenuation of 13-14 dB at 25 Hz. Now I experimented again, and discovered that with the new changes a setting of -8 dB at 25 Hz works well (0 dB still causes room overload). The bass goes a bit lower; it also sounds a bit freer and less pinched -- relatively spoken, you hear such things only in direct comparison. Strangely, a few slightly boomy situations on some long bass notes are ameliorated, the opposite of what you might expect. I'll have to see if this works all across the board, but so far, so good.

 

[bonzo75]

Your behavior on the video thread is the petulant one

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Al, do you have any videos of this bad system to prove it is not as awful sounding as the description

 

[PeterA]

Bonzo, I think you well know that Al is not sharing videos. Perhaps you should make a deal with Al: you buy a complete system with photos and he will post a video. Those two events will supercharge the forum.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bonzo, I think you well know that Al is not sharing videos. Perhaps you should make a deal with Al: you buy a complete system with photos and he will post a video. Those two events will supercharge the forum.

We can all go back to the day job and our wives after that.