My Sonic Labs Gold Signature VS. Air Tight Supreme

[PeterA]

Intersting Peter, Im not familiar with either cartridge but I expect your observations to be accurate and this brings up a question for me. Airtight; natural, balanced, organic, seamless, beautiful, rich, presence. MSL; bass extension, bigger, dynamic, less relaxed, audible emphasis of frequencies, pushy. Looking at the descriptors on their own one would conclude that ATS is the more natural and musical sounding of the two with the MLS sounding even a little hifi. Yet you favor the MSL, what is it about the ATS that's holding it back?

david

Good question, David. I struggled over many months going back and forth between these two. Each time I thought I had them dialed in, I would experiment with dynamic versus static tracking force, VTA and VTF and impressions would change slightly. Ultimately, it became a bit frustrating and difficult to nail down the differences. Those descriptions sound fairly dramatic, but we are really talking about very subtle differences, especially when factoring in the various slight changes to the tonearm settings.

The MSL has a vibrancy, scale and something that at first sounded a bit hifi as you suggest, but the more I dialed it in, the more I kept returning to it because I simply heard more of the music and it sounded more convincing. I had always thought the Supreme was more natural, but this latest round has convinced me that there is something missing. It is not quite as open a window into the sound. It sounds great, and right and natural until you hear something that does slightly more. At first I thought the MSL was hifi, but then I listened to a bunch of live music, and decided it actually sounds more like the real thing. But only very slightly.

 

[DaveyF]

Peter, you bring up some interesting observations about cartridges...."There are so many excellent cartridge available today, albeit at outrageous prices". I would question whether there is a lot of psychology involved in the pricing of these. For example, would it be a selling point if a cartridge was to come to the market that everyone agreed sounded top-flite, yet it was priced at or below some of the entry level MM's. I suspect that most of us ( perhaps all) would discount it right out of the gate. ( Particularly if we had little or no chance of hearing it in our own systems---which is the most likely). I believe that cartridges are perhaps the one piece of gear that most of us have an impossible, or very hard time in demo'ing in our rooms. ( For obvious reasons). So, we rely heavily on reports like yours ( great job, BTW) and reviews. Naturally, the manufacturer/dealer knows this fact and markets to maximize it. The pricing structure has to be commensurate with his audience expectation.IMHO.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Careful Davey, or those that defend high end pricing will be down on you for even introducing a note of skepticism. TT's are going well twds $100k, eg AF1, Continuum Caliburn, newest Walker, tonearms twds $30k and above, eg SAT, Vertere Reference, Durand Telos w/sapphire counterweight, and now cartridges that are exceeding $15k. Phonos next I guess.
Yep, it's a real shame that it's getting harder to hear top carts, esp a-b'ing them, and I'm sure these prices don't make it any easier, w/dealers struggling to host a healthy range.
I guess reviews like these from Peter are invaluable since they highlight the range of characteristics presented, and one must decide whether those characteristics are what speak to you, ahead of plumping for one.
For me, I'm happy to stick w/my Soundsmith Straingauge which remains at half the price of these other SOTA carts, even w/recent updates, and this price effectively includes the phono stage, so even greater VFM. A shame it's not more heralded on these forums.

 

[DaveyF]

Careful Davey, or those that defend high end pricing will be down on you for even introducing a note of skepticism.

Marc,

Here's the thing...I don't give a hoot as to how high the pricing goes in the hobby...After all, if there is someone who sees no problem with it, and can easily afford this stuff ( to many people the pricing is less than pocket change). Then i say more power to them.
What does concern me a little, and which i think few members here are truly cognizant of, is the effect that this structure/business plan has on the general buying public. How is a $15K cartridge, or a $90K DAC, perceived by the young person who would like to acquire a nice high end system for him/her self ( yes guys, even ladies like music). How does this gear look to the beginner a'phile who would really like to acquire a better system than what he/she can get at Target or Costco. Does the stratospheric pricing ( which BTW, is what is the most talked about gear...Andre Marc's sub-forum being the exception...and kudos to him) seem to these people....is it a BIG turn-off....????
That's what i am seeing when I talk to young people who may be interested in our hobby, but quickly see and hear that it seems to be 'exclusionary'!! ( Price wise)
( Yes, there are a number of less expensive products available, but they are rarely given anything near the 'hyperbole' that the more expensive stuff routinely receives).
So, IMHO, the next time we are raving about the $90K DAC or the $100K table or the $400K speaker or?? let's remember for a minute how that is perceived by those a little less shall we say 'fortunate' or even 'experienced' in this hobby than we are.
Perhaps.....perhaps, it's time to give 'thanks' ----

Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[spiritofmusic]

But Davey, I'm going to disagree w/you.
Number one, true music listeners in the way we understand are fast declining, and those that are left actually have some great choices at all price ranges. The Elac P6 at $300 is one of the most amazing pieces of hifi ever, and close to $2k will get an Elac dsp-based spkr system/streamer/dac that will outperform systems 10x the price - no kidding!
The general public aren't actually that aware of the high end, and one can make the same criticism of the high end pricing of fast cars, handbags, shoes, watches etc.
I can't see anyone devoted to their I-Pod being that bothered by topics here, they're too busy nearly getting run over crossing the street w/headphones on !
My system I believe is "good" vfm, but it probably equates to the gross price of at least 10-20 pretty good beginners systems. Can't your criticism be aimed at me? And you?
What I believe IS an issue, is that this stratospheric pricing is leading to fewer and fewer of these items being bought here in the West, and pretty much the majority of high end purchasing being globally farmed out to Asia, Russia, India etc. I don't remember the heyday of classic Krell, Apogee, Theta, Linn, Naim, B&W, Musical Fidelity, Wilson etc etc in the 80s and 90s not having their major markets in the US/Europe/UK.

 

[Barry]

But Davey, I'm going to disagree w/you. What I believe IS an issue, is that this stratospheric pricing is leading to fewer and fewer of these items being bought here in the West, and pretty much the majority of high end purchasing being globally farmed out to Asia, Russia, India etc.

Russia & India???? Ever looked at the GDP of these countries? India and Russia's total GDP is about the size of Italy's. Their per capita GDP is way less as is the population of top incomes vis a vis many other countries. But what difference does it make where these items are being bought? Please help me understand your point.

 

[chelseadave]

I

But Davey, I'm going to disagree w/you. What I believe IS an issue, is that this stratospheric pricing is leading to fewer and fewer of these items being bought here in the West, and pretty much the majority of high end purchasing being globally farmed out to Asia, Russia, India etc.

Russia & India???? Ever looked at the GDP of these countries? India and Russia's total GDP is about the size of Italy's. Their per capita GDP is way less as is the population of top incomes vis a vis many other countries. But what difference does it make where these items are being bought? Please help me understand your point.

India's higher than Italy's for 2015 actually.

 

[PeterA]

A discussion about pricing in this hobby is well and good, but could we steer the conversation back to these two, and perhaps a few other, cartridges and what they sound like in particular systems?

 

[spiritofmusic]

But Davey, I'm going to disagree w/you. What I believe IS an issue, is that this stratospheric pricing is leading to fewer and fewer of these items being bought here in the West, and pretty much the majority of high end purchasing being globally farmed out to Asia, Russia, India etc.

Russia & India???? Ever looked at the GDP of these countries? India and Russia's total GDP is about the size of Italy's. Their per capita GDP is way less as is the population of top incomes vis a vis many other countries. But what difference does it make where these items are being bought? Please help me understand your point.

The rich in these countries are spending more of their cash on high end audio than those in the West, I believe. Just ask Kharma, who have no US arm anymore, but showrooms in the East.
Back to yr topic I guess Peter, good y'r making a decision even though in many ways the attributes of both carts are v.attractive. So much easier when you really don't like something...

 

[Frank750]

Just ask Kharma, who have no US arm anymore, but showrooms in the East.

I listened to the Kharma Midi Grand last week at a dealer in Chicago. There was a Kharma representative present as well. The same speakers will be at CES in January. Kharma also has dealers in New York and San Francisco.

 

[spiritofmusic]

My mistake, I thought Kharma had pulled out of the US. I don't think they're in the UK. What did they sound like?

 

[ddk]

My mistake, I thought Kharma had pulled out of the US. I don't think they're in the UK. What did they sound like?

For the past few years they were selling factory direct to the US market but apparently they now have a US distributor.

david

 

[Frank750]

My mistake, I thought Kharma had pulled out of the US. I don't think they're in the UK. What did they sound like?

They were in a well treated room but almost against the back wall. The room was too small in my opinion. They sounded very good with well recorded music. Once they switched to everyday rock music they sounded very pedestrian. Not a lot of depth for obvious reasons but good detail and I think they would have been great in a larger room. All Constellation electronics and some very expensive Argento cables.

 

[Bill Hart]

Good question, David. I struggled over many months going back and forth between these two. Each time I thought I had them dialed in, I would experiment with dynamic versus static tracking force, VTA and VTF and impressions would change slightly. Ultimately, it became a bit frustrating and difficult to nail down the differences. Those descriptions sound fairly dramatic, but we are really talking about very subtle differences, especially when factoring in the various slight changes to the tonearm settings.

The MSL has a vibrancy, scale and something that at first sounded a bit hifi as you suggest, but the more I dialed it in, the more I kept returning to it because I simply heard more of the music and it sounded more convincing. I had always thought the Supreme was more natural, but this latest round has convinced me that there is something missing. It is not quite as open a window into the sound. It sounds great, and right and natural until you hear something that does slightly more. At first I thought the MSL was hifi, but then I listened to a bunch of live music, and decided it actually sounds more like the real thing. But only very slightly.

It's all trade-offs, isn't it? I've been running the Airtights for years, first the PC (whatever the standard one was, PC-1?), then the Supreme. The Supreme is a significantly better cartridge than the standard one, but at the time, the standard one sounded good. (Same arm, Airline, which seems to work well with these cartridges). Never heard the MySonicLabs iteration. At the time I first switched to the Airtight, some years ago, the Titan i was a 'go to' cartridge, only bettered, if I recall, by the one that used the unobtanium magnets from the old Parnassus. I found the Airtight v Lyra Titan i to have similar attributes to those you described in the Airtight v MSL comparison. I know Albert P has done shoot-outs with the Airtight Supreme v. Lyra Atlas and made similar observations to yours, though I think he falls on the side of the Airtight rather than the Lyra. Don't mean to introduce another cartridge into the mix, but instead to suggest that each of these (even made by the same 'house') have a slightly different sound and that you wind up picking your preference. I don't know how much it has to do with the character of your system overall. For me, the Airtight strikes the right balance, but all that means is that I prefer it, not that it is 'better' in any absolute sense. (My system doesn't plumb the depths of bass, and midrange is where I am focused; the harmonics and decay give me a huge amount of 'realism' when it is there on the record). Good report....

 

[Ozzi]

I got this wagon INDIGO Y-12 !!!
Incredibly, he has other muscles unlike Koetsu - Black.
INDIGO Y-12 have individual sound handwriting.
In general, they do not belong to the analytic and tonally balanced components - these qualities are inherent in, say, Air Tight, or Lyra.
It is inimitable makes head SensitiveSound their inherent magic of sound.
It is comparable to the phenomenon of light.
I am extremely pleased and will listen to the Cartridges.

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

I heard the MSL Ultra Eminent at T.H.E. Show and was completely blown away on every level. It seemed to pull all the information from the grooves.

Love the Anna also, not so much on the Koetsu (my opinion).

 

[PeterA]

As some may know, my MSL Signature Gold had a slightly skewed cantilever. It sounded great, so I did not really worry about this. I was able to rotate the cartridge enough in the headshell of my SME V-12 to align the cantilever with the alignment guides on my MINT Protractor. But, after a year or so, I noticed that the cantilever looked slightly worse and it eventually became difficult to align properly using my MINT. So, I decided to send it to Japan for a complete rebuild. A few weeks later, I got it back and was told to expect between 50-100 hours for complete break in.

Well, I started listening and it sounded really good, similar to how I remembered it sounding. But here is the big news: I now have 50 hours on it, and it has started to sound significantly better than before. It continues to improve, and it has reached the point where I now prefer it by a fair amount to my AirTight Supreme. I always thought the Supreme slightly emphasized the mid range and was a bit sweeter in the highs, especially with bowed strings. Well, the rebuilt MSL is much better in the mids than was my old one with the slightly skewed cantilever. It is highly resolving and yet exhibits no glare, fatigue or stridency. It is not the slightest bit bright or analytical. It just sounds natural, but it is more extended, more dynamic and more resolving than my Supreme, and now with the improved midrange, it is all of this across the frequencies.

There is little information on the net about this MSL Signature Gold, so I thought I would share this update to give my current view on the qualities of this tremendous cartridge, especially relative to the Supreme, which I also very much like, and which is better known by many members.

 

[jfrech]

As some may know, my MSL Signature Gold had a slightly skewed cantilever. It sounded great, so I did not really worry about this. I was able to rotate the cartridge enough in the headshell of my SME V-12 to align the cantilever with the alignment guides on my MINT Protractor. But, after a year or so, I noticed that the cantilever looked slightly worse and it eventually became difficult to align properly using my MINT. So, I decided to send it to Japan for a complete rebuild. A few weeks later, I got it back and was told to expect between 50-100 hours for complete break in.

Well, I started listening and it sounded really good, similar to how I remembered it sounding. But here is the big news: I now have 50 hours on it, and it has started to sound significantly better than before. It continues to improve, and it has reached the point where I now prefer it by a fair amount to my AirTight Supreme. I always thought the Supreme slightly emphasized the mid range and was a bit sweeter in the highs, especially with bowed strings. Well, the rebuilt MSL is much better in the mids than was my old one with the slightly skewed cantilever. It is highly resolving and yet exhibits no glare, fatigue or stridency. It is not the slightest bit bright or analytical. It just sounds natural, but it is more extended, more dynamic and more resolving than my Supreme, and now with the improved midrange, it is all of this across the frequencies.

There is little information on the net about this MSL Signature Gold, so I thought I would share this update to give my current view on the qualities of this tremendous cartridge, especially relative to the Supreme, which I also very much like, and which is better known by many members.

Hi Peter, that's cool, very happy for you. I know how careful you are on set up. On the skewed cantilever, was it a oops moment or something off in the suspension?

 

[PeterA]

Hi Peter, that's cool, very happy for you. I know how careful you are on set up. On the skewed cantilever, was it a oops moment or something off in the suspension?

Hi John, I can't really say. I picked up this particular cartridge from the US Distributor, A J Conti. It belonged to a friend of mine in Europe who offered to let me try it in my system. It only had about 20 hours on it, so I took it home, and gave it a listen. If I liked it, I could buy it, if not, I would try to sell it for him on Audiogon. Needless to say, it sounded great, so I decided to buy it from him. The cantilever was very slightly off when I bought it, so he gave me a great deal, and this would have made it more difficult to sell to someone else. I could barely see with my naked eyes the degree to which the cantilever was skewed.

During the six months or so that I spent directly comparing it to my reference cartridge, the Supreme, for the subject of this thread, I was able to align it by slightly rotating the cartridge (Zenith) in the headshell. Then, after about a year, I noticed that I could barely align the cantilever within the guide markings on my MINT protractor. That is when I concluded the cantilever was in fact moving slightly, so I decided to send it back to Japan.

I can't say if it was originally caused by some accident, as I bought it in this condition, if it was the suspension slowly giving out, or some other defect. Regardless, it is now basically a new cartridge inside the old shell, and it continues to surprise me as it improves during the break in process, 50 hours so far. Perhaps this Fall, I will reinstall the Supreme for another comparison, but right now, I am just thrilled with what I am hearing. When it was gone for the rebuild, I listened to the Supreme, and it sounded tremendous. That is the cartridge I think you heard in my system, years ago.

I can not really imagine what the new and improved generation of these two cartridges, the AirTight Opus, and the MSL Signature Platinum, sound like. I would love to read a direct comparison between either of these and the Goldfinger Statement, although all three are beyond my means. The really exciting part, though, is that my system has basically remained unchanged for three years, and yet, as I learn more about cartridge loading and set up, plus this rebuilt MSL breaking in, my system seems to still be slightly improving, without additional expensive upgrades or changes.

This has changed my thinking about the relative importance of component selection, proper system set up, and fine tuning, whether it be with front end adjustments in an analog system or the selection of filters and settings in a digital system, or the judicious placement of room treatments, speakers and listening seat locations. All of these cost little but time, experimentation, and a willingness to learn and listen carefully. This is consistent with my experience of hearing great systems and with observations I have read from more experienced audiophiles on forums like this one: The quality of a system is not guaranteed by the level of components but rather by their careful selection, proper set up, and judicious fine tuning. This is ultimately what makes a satisfying system and listening experience.

 

[DaveyF]

Peter, great post. I am very curious to hear what the new MSL Platinum sounds like. I have heard the new AirTight Opus and it is one of the best cartridges that I have ever heard. The MSL Platinum is supposed to be even better!
Agree 100% with you when you say that fine tuning and experimentation are so very important to getting the last once out of the system.