As I have said before, knowledge and "Nose to console" AFAIK have probably the largest influence on VG vs mediocre results.
My system is too accurate
- Thread starter taters
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You are correct. FR is only part of the picture. The time domain is the part many folks ignore. I think it's as important, if not more so, than FR. That's why I posted the impulse response before and after. They are interrelated. I also think gear matters.
But the low-hangin' fruit in high end audio is speaker/room interaction. It's the last food group most folks consider eating, if ever. The healthy eating analogy is apt. It's not as profitable for a food company to market whole meats/veggies than it is to sell mass produced refined grain products. In high-end audio, nobody is making a killing selling acoustical test gear, room treatments, DSP or acoustical advice. The big money is made with the electronic gear. Consequently, the gear sellers rule the roost in marketing, opinion making and dealer education.
But the low-hangin' fruit in high end audio is speaker/room interaction. It's the last food group most folks consider eating, if ever. The healthy eating analogy is apt. It's not as profitable for a food company to market whole meats/veggies than it is to sell mass produced refined grain products. In high-end audio, nobody is making a killing selling acoustical test gear, room treatments, DSP or acoustical advice. The big money is made with the electronic gear. Consequently, the gear sellers rule the roost in marketing, opinion making and dealer education.
Yep the recording is 75% of the game. Properly amplified speakers are 20%. We sweat the small stuff in places like WBF. But regardless of why recording you get, it's the recording you've got. You may be able to use good eq or elaborate "system integration" to change the results to your liking, but they won't be more "accurate."
Tim
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
That's right.... acoustical treatment is not sexy. You won't hear someone say "Hey Ted, come over and hear my new bass traps!"
Go look at the photo of the Q7's that were being paired with a new phono stage in another WBF thread as reviewed in Positive Feedback. $180,000 worth of speakers and not a single piece of acoustic treatment to be seen. What a total and complete joke!!! As well as a total waste of $180,000. So many folks who have money and zero common sense!
True, but now that they have the $180,000 speakers, a few modest room treatments will make it even better. Conversely, I doubt if room treatments can turn a lesser speaker into a Q7.
I hide all my acoustical treatments - it is why I do not post photos of my system!
Besides I try to use a minimum of acoustical treatments. I am not an expert and I have found that, most of the time, they are used inappropriately and they do more wrong than right. Except for those sessions where people enjoying listening at extreme loud levels, where a treated room can be a must, the best sound experiences I had were in untreated rooms with lots of furniture. IMHO, modern minimalist decor rooms with high reflective flat surfaces are a sound nightmare.
Except for four pieces, with which I wanted to make a statement anyway, all the others are camouflaged. In my old place I had no room for big bass traps so I had custom couches built with trapping underneath. I love stealth. In my present room aside from the front corners, they occupy a third of the ceiling others are built up and in on an 8th of the walls. Even my rear schroeders are covered with fabric. (but just because it was cheaper than having them properly finished )
)
Ed and Tony record their tapes in an almost completely untreated room (it's actually an indoor pool). There is a cover on the pool and some fabric panels to cover the windows leading into the house. It sounds stunning. So I have to agree with Micro in that some cases treatments are overdone.
Other than a live listening session I've never heard a truly accurate representation of the music the artist(s) created and likely never will. And IMO, this has nothing to do with the quality or expense invested. I also think that recordings have a much bigger impact than gear for getting closer to it.
Other than a live listening session I've never heard a truly accurate representation of the music the artist(s) created and likely never will. And IMO, this has nothing to do with the quality or expense invested. I also think that recordings have a much bigger impact than gear for getting closer to it.
John- I think the issue of 'treatment' in the recording venue is different than treatment in the playback environment, where you are trying to reduce the colorations that the listening room adds. I agree that room treatments can be overdone- when I heard that big Sonus Faber speaker with the ARC Reference electronics a few years ago in a dealer's 'uber' listening room, the entire atmosphere of the room was dead- it was unnatural and claustrophobic to me, and didn't sound particularly good, although the equipment was still impressive in a 'hi-fi' way. Look at the Trinity Sessions as an example- minimalist, digital recording done in a church, with tons of natural echo/reverb. As source material it is highly regarded (though I admit having not listened to it more than a couple times in the past ten years). Acoustic treatment in the venue would have probably changed that recording for the worse; but treating the playback room, judiciously, would allow the listening room to 'get out of the way' or in Jim Smith's parlance (who doesn't necessarily advocate heavy room treatment, but proper placement of the gear within the room), allow you to 'play the [listening] room' more effectively.
True. I should also have added that I heard the tapes they created in Ed's and also Tony's listening room. Both incorporate minimal treatment.
Do any of you think your room/system is accurate or even too accurate?
In the sense that SH is referring to, I think it's probably true for most of us here. If you have a reasonable high fidelity reproduction system, a significant amount of overcompressed overequalized music is going to sound at least unpleasant and sometimes painful, and unfortunately that represents a lot of the music released or rereleased in the last 15 years.
Accurate enough to provide an immense amount of listening pleasure for hours and hours on end. Is it truly accurate? Realistically, I don't personally believe that anybody can say that.
Tom
I like what you said a lot. If you gain pleasure then perhaps it's accurate (enough). At least enough not to let anything interfere with the enjoyment.
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Yes recording and reproducing are two different animals. In a drum room, you'll see lots of reflective surfaces, whereas a voice over booth is completely dead.
I hide all my acoustical treatments - it is why I do not post photos of my system!
Besides I try to use a minimum of acoustical treatments. I am not an expert and I have found that, most of the time, they are used inappropriately and they do more wrong than right. Except for those sessions where people enjoying listening at extreme loud levels, where a treated room can be a must, the best sound experiences I had were in untreated rooms with lots of furniture. IMHO, modern minimalist decor rooms with high reflective flat surfaces are a sound nightmare.
While there may be bass traps in the soffits, there is clearly no side wall treatment (certainly the LP's on the front wall can act as diffusors). And I'm not picking on this room other than to point out that this type of situation (great speakers/systems and almost non-existent treatment/crappy room) is VERY prevalent. Hidden treatment is still treatment.
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Mine is accurate enough to make changes because the music needs it, not because there is a deficiency in the speakers/equipment/room.
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
The label or artist tells me what they want it to sound like. If I have no direction, then I suit to my taste and hope the artist/label likes it.
I guess you'd rather implement your own tastes then as the labels (not all) only care about pushing volume and not quality.
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