My Theory of Sonic Cues to Explain Different Sounding Systems
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
I ultimately prefer analogue sonically… I just don’t have any atm… any chance you can lend me a spare $150k till Monday.
PS I promise to use $100k of it on good records.
agreed but the 150k is not a sonic clue. Hence I used the word prefer, not own.
With the need for powerful bass as a notable common sonic cue that stretches well past just audiophile circles into the general populace it’s a sonic cue that could do with some background and explaining.
Hopefully it’s ok to go for a bit of latitude and give a bit of background science on the powerful bass and loud sound phenomena as a common sonic addiction.
The bass culture… loudness and the kinds of music experiences that drive us into being addicted to bass...
As a cultural product of the nightclub scene from the punk era and through to the emergence of the rave culture the sonic need for bass for me was a definite cultural, experiential physical and psychological thing… and it’s an addictive thing that I consciously weaned myself off of louder music and infrasonic sound… so for me it also became a cold turkey thing that was treated in the early 90’s by my turning to Proac Response 2 standmounts with Quicksilver GM8417 mono tube amps.
I grew up in a family that ran hotels and nightclubs and both my brothers have music based industrial deafness from years spent in the nightclub industry.
Here’s an extract of some great reading I found on Frontier Science foundation site on bass culture and the patterns of a common addiction to bass and to loud music…
Bass Culture and Sound as Power
People often like “hot” sound with great penetrating power. This is the celebration of the bass culture with a conception of “sound as power.” It brings us to the widely established attitudes toward loud music as established in particular in adolescents (Landälv et al., 2013). Given that sounds in bars and dance clubs may reach levels in excess of 120 dB SPL and that such loud music is considered to be pleasurable to some, with the loudness itself being a source of pleasure, it can be questioned which attributes of the sound contribute to this experience of pleasure (Todd and Cody, 2000).
Loud music, in contrast to industrial noise which mostly has a rather flat broadband frequency character, and which is known to be harmful, is not considered stressful to some up to sound levels of 105 dB Leq. This is exemplified in what is known as the rock and roll threshold of around 96 dB Leq, provided that sufficient low frequency energy is present (Dibble, 1995). Live performance frequency spectra, moreover, should require at least a critical difference (from 10 to 30 dB) between the midband energy level and that of the low-frequency band (50–100 Hz), which seems to suggest that part of the source of pleasure is the predominance of high-intensity low frequencies perceived beyond a certain loudness level. This implies that acoustically evoked sensations besides mere auditory ones may be sought. Two classes of sensations seem to be possible candidates here: vibrotactile (Verrillo, 1992; Levänen et al., 1998; Levänen and Hamdorf, 2001) and vestibularones (Todd, 1993). The labyrinthine sensitivity to loud sound and vibration is well documented (Romand, 1992; Sheykholeslami and Kaga, 2002; Oertel and Young, 2004; Guinan, 2006; Phillips-Silver and Trainor, 2008), but it is still a matter of discussion whether stimuli, which are found in the sound environment of loud dance music, may evoke similar vestibular responses. There is already some physiological evidence for acoustic sensitivity of the vestibular system in the sense that, from an evolutionary point of view, the inner ear shows a division between the organs of balance (semi-circular canals and utricle) and those with an auditory function (saccule and lagena; Popper et al., 1982).
At a later stage in evolution, the cochlea has come to replace the saccule as the primary organ of hearing, but there is still some evidence suggesting that the saccule has retained some acoustic function in higher vertebrates, such as amphibians, birds, and some mammals. It is the saccule, rather than the utricle or the semi-circular canals, which is maximally sensitive to sound (Todd et al., 2000, Todd, 2001; Colebatch, 2006; see also Emami et al., 2013). This same organ is also thought to mediate evoked myogenic responses to acoustic stimuli in humans, which are thus considered to have a vestibular rather than a cochlear origin. Such responses have been found, in fact, for music in dance clubs with sound levels above 90 dB(A) (sometimes approaching the intensity of 120 dB and even beyond) and in particular for frequencies between 200 and 400 Hz, which is close to those which are typically experienced in bars or dance clubs (100–300 Hz). The frequency distributions of dance club sounds—the rock and roll threshold—are thus well matched to the maximal sensitivity of the saccule.
The question remains, however, why such acoustic saccular stimulation should be searched for? One of the possible explanations is the search for sensations of self-motion as obtained from swings, rocking chairs, and roller coasters, which are experienced for some as being equally pleasurable. As such, it is suggested that both these acoustically evoked saccular responses and vibrotactile sensation may be considered as possible sources of pleasure in loud music (Todd et al., 2000; Todd, 2001).
Bass Culture part 2 to follow…
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It thus seems that loud music is perceived primarily as a vibrational transduction of affect, rather than as a translation of meaning, with powerful lower frequencies that resonate with embodied movement. They seem to evidence a kind of sonic dominance, displaying a kind of “haecceity” or “this-ness” with a force of attack and sharpness of edge, as compared to the more tamed and domesticated mid-frequencies of what has been considered traditionally as music (Henriques, 2011, p. 38). As such, it is possible to conceive of “sound as force” in the context of bass culture rather than of “sound as text” (Goodman, 2009). One should be skeptical, however, about such metaphorical descriptions in terms of bass materialism, as conceived in the house-music culture of the 1990s. There is, in fact, still some controversy whether we actually “feel” the sub-bass frequencies in a physical sense rather than as a subjective experience, evoked by our reactions to the sounds. The lowest frequencies, in fact, fall outside of the rather narrow band between 2 and 5 kHz for which our ears are most sensitive. The bass-dominated sound, tuned into the sound waves below 100 Hz, moreover, has also not been primarily designed to produce “dystopian experiences of sonic domination” but was aimed rather at providing a distinctive sonic environment that “strove to envelop dancers in a shared physical experience of sound without punishing their ears” (Fink, 2018, p. 96). A deep, full-sounding sub-bass may be less fatiguing to the ear than highly amplified mid-frequencies, which stimulate the sensory systems more effectively due to the resonant properties of the ear, and at a higher rate, due to the frequency (Gleason, 2015).
As such, there seems to be misunderstanding about the so-called bass culture. Though it can be stated that low frequencies can impinge on the body in a haptic way, it should be considered that intermodal translation between the senses mostly involves an attenuation of intensity. This is the case, e.g., when trying to “feel” the music rather than merely “hearing” it. The ear, in fact, is one of our most delicate senses, which reacts to infinitesimally small portions of sound energy. This is not the case when the skin or another part of the body reacts to vibration. It should be noted, further, that air (the medium through which the sound waves are carried) and our bodies do not couple very well, due to a difference in acoustical impedance. This means that most of the long-wave energy of low-frequency sound bounces off the surface on our skin, leaving only a small fraction to impinge on the touch sensors in the epidermis. It is difficult to determine, further, how deep this effect goes, but for the head and the torso, this small surface displacement seems to engender the feeling of bass thump and punch inside the body (Fink, 2018). This is not the case, however, for the frequencies beyond the ultrasound border where small sound waves can intrude the interior of the body with high energy transmission (Altmann, 2001).
Most of the resonant frequencies of the human body are below the frequencies that loudspeakers can project, as most of the organs and viscera resonate most strongly around 5 Hz (Fink, 2018). This does not mean, however, that there is no feeling of vibration as the human body is sensitive to vibrations from 0.5 to 100 kHz, with the frequencies between 0.5 and 200 Hz as the most intrusive ones. This means that the felt vibrations from the lower frequencies may influence to some extent the haptic-tactile perception of low-frequency sounds as well as our subjective reaction to these sounds (Berglund et al., 1996).
This brings us to the phenomenon of liking or disliking loud music. What motivates listeners to listen at levels of discomfort, which are in the close vicinity of the threshold of pain? Is this an individual choice or should we consider also factors that go beyond conscious and deliberate control? A possible answer is to be found in social ecological models of behavior.
Bass Culture part 3 next…
As such, there seems to be misunderstanding about the so-called bass culture. Though it can be stated that low frequencies can impinge on the body in a haptic way, it should be considered that intermodal translation between the senses mostly involves an attenuation of intensity. This is the case, e.g., when trying to “feel” the music rather than merely “hearing” it. The ear, in fact, is one of our most delicate senses, which reacts to infinitesimally small portions of sound energy. This is not the case when the skin or another part of the body reacts to vibration. It should be noted, further, that air (the medium through which the sound waves are carried) and our bodies do not couple very well, due to a difference in acoustical impedance. This means that most of the long-wave energy of low-frequency sound bounces off the surface on our skin, leaving only a small fraction to impinge on the touch sensors in the epidermis. It is difficult to determine, further, how deep this effect goes, but for the head and the torso, this small surface displacement seems to engender the feeling of bass thump and punch inside the body (Fink, 2018). This is not the case, however, for the frequencies beyond the ultrasound border where small sound waves can intrude the interior of the body with high energy transmission (Altmann, 2001).
Most of the resonant frequencies of the human body are below the frequencies that loudspeakers can project, as most of the organs and viscera resonate most strongly around 5 Hz (Fink, 2018). This does not mean, however, that there is no feeling of vibration as the human body is sensitive to vibrations from 0.5 to 100 kHz, with the frequencies between 0.5 and 200 Hz as the most intrusive ones. This means that the felt vibrations from the lower frequencies may influence to some extent the haptic-tactile perception of low-frequency sounds as well as our subjective reaction to these sounds (Berglund et al., 1996).
This brings us to the phenomenon of liking or disliking loud music. What motivates listeners to listen at levels of discomfort, which are in the close vicinity of the threshold of pain? Is this an individual choice or should we consider also factors that go beyond conscious and deliberate control? A possible answer is to be found in social ecological models of behavior.
Bass Culture part 3 next…
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Listening to Loud Sounds: Adaptation, Conditioning, and Acculturation
Listening to possible harmful sounds can be classified as health-risk behavior that accounts for both individual attitudes and beliefs and the impact of aspects of the social environment. The problem of possible harmful effects, however, is difficult to control as the personal rewards of loud music are quite immediate, whereas the harmful effects may become visible only after years (Blesser, 2007). The enjoyment of loud sound, moreover, appears to depend on a complex and powerful interaction of forces related to cultural, interpersonal, and intrapersonal factors. As such, it can be studied by applying the Social Ecological Model that considers four levels of influence: the intrapersonal level, the interpersonal level, the community level, and the policy level, all of them pointing toward an ecology of acceptance of high-level sound (McLeroy et al., 1988; see Richard et al., 2011 for an overview).
The intrapersonal level refers to the individual’s own thoughts and attitudes, reflecting personal preference for style and genre, as well as personality traits, which may influence the appreciation for loud sounds, such as sensation seeking behavior and a desire for rebelliousness (Arnett, 1994; Lozon and Bensimon, 2014). Loud music, in that case, is valued as providing intense stimulation and arousal. It has an exciting and arousing effect through stimulation of brainstem mechanisms, with connections to the reticular formation, which modulates our experience of sound and which may be expected to contribute to pleasurably heightened arousal (Juslin and Västfjäll, 2008). The interpersonal level refers to the direct influence of other associated people. It describes the influence of sound on interactions with others, reflecting the desire for group membership by adopting common styles and tastes (Bennett, 1999). The community levelconcerns the cultural influences on listener’s behavior. It refers to the accepted practices around loud music, such as the expectation of loudness from both nightclub staff and clubbers. Staff members, in particular, use loud music to market themselves in line with the conceptualization of a culture of loud sound and to influence their customers. Clubbers, as a matter of fact, seem to accept these loudness levels, even when they are experienced as being too loud. Levels of around 97 dBA Leq are not uncommon (Beach et al., 2013), mostly starting at a level of 85 dBA Leq but rising gradually through the course of the evening to reach this maximum level around midnight. The underlying mechanism is adaptation as the auditory system is highly adaptive to high-level sound, with physiological adaptation occurring at multiple sites in the cochlea (Fettiplace and Kim, 2014) and also in the cortex (Whitmire and Stanley, 2016). As such, sound levels are raising in order to meet what club managers consider to be the wishes of the customers who perceive loudness as a function of both the external level of sound and the degree of physiological adaptation. The policy level, finally, deals with the influence of legal requirements and aspects of government policy concerning noise levels in the workplace (McLeroy et al., 1988; see also Welch and Fremaux, 2017a,b). The Social Ecological Model, moreover, claims that influences toward good health should be present at each of the levels of the model in order to guarantee good health behavior.
A related theory has been proposed by Welch and Fremaux: the CAALM model, which is short for Conditioning, Adaptation, and Acculturation to Loud Music (Welch and Fremaux, 2017a,b). It is based on three processes: (1) an initial adaptation that should enable listeners to overcome the experienced discomfort that is associated with loud music; (2) a classically conditioned response that repeatedly pairs levels of loudness with perceived benefits of loudness such as masking of other unwanted sound, social benefits, arousal, excitement, and other associated benefits such as dancing, fun, friends, alcohol, or other substances, and (3) an acculturation process wherein large groups of listeners start to perceive loud music as the norm and as the common association of fun (see Figure 6).
FIGURE 6. Schematic diagram of the CAALM Model diagram showing the three parallel cycles that may lead to people enjoying loud music, and the role of personality as a moderating factor. (Figure adapted and republished with permission of Thieme Publishers from Welch and Fremaux, 2017a).
Underlying the model are several positive features of loud sound that contribute to the conditioning effect: (1) loud music masks unwanted sounds, (2) it enables more and greater socialization (cf. Cusick, 2006), (3) it provides opportunities for intimacy in crowded space, (4) it masks unpleasant thoughts, (5) it is arousing, and (6) it emphasizes personal identity, especially personal toughness and masculinity. The latter reflects culturally accepted norms of masculinity as being associated with activity and danger and may represent the neural interaction where a natural fear response would occur to the loud sound and then the person is able to exert control over that response, thus generating a feeling of strength (Welch and Fremaux, 2017b).
Whoops… more words than expected… last bit coming…
Listening to possible harmful sounds can be classified as health-risk behavior that accounts for both individual attitudes and beliefs and the impact of aspects of the social environment. The problem of possible harmful effects, however, is difficult to control as the personal rewards of loud music are quite immediate, whereas the harmful effects may become visible only after years (Blesser, 2007). The enjoyment of loud sound, moreover, appears to depend on a complex and powerful interaction of forces related to cultural, interpersonal, and intrapersonal factors. As such, it can be studied by applying the Social Ecological Model that considers four levels of influence: the intrapersonal level, the interpersonal level, the community level, and the policy level, all of them pointing toward an ecology of acceptance of high-level sound (McLeroy et al., 1988; see Richard et al., 2011 for an overview).
The intrapersonal level refers to the individual’s own thoughts and attitudes, reflecting personal preference for style and genre, as well as personality traits, which may influence the appreciation for loud sounds, such as sensation seeking behavior and a desire for rebelliousness (Arnett, 1994; Lozon and Bensimon, 2014). Loud music, in that case, is valued as providing intense stimulation and arousal. It has an exciting and arousing effect through stimulation of brainstem mechanisms, with connections to the reticular formation, which modulates our experience of sound and which may be expected to contribute to pleasurably heightened arousal (Juslin and Västfjäll, 2008). The interpersonal level refers to the direct influence of other associated people. It describes the influence of sound on interactions with others, reflecting the desire for group membership by adopting common styles and tastes (Bennett, 1999). The community levelconcerns the cultural influences on listener’s behavior. It refers to the accepted practices around loud music, such as the expectation of loudness from both nightclub staff and clubbers. Staff members, in particular, use loud music to market themselves in line with the conceptualization of a culture of loud sound and to influence their customers. Clubbers, as a matter of fact, seem to accept these loudness levels, even when they are experienced as being too loud. Levels of around 97 dBA Leq are not uncommon (Beach et al., 2013), mostly starting at a level of 85 dBA Leq but rising gradually through the course of the evening to reach this maximum level around midnight. The underlying mechanism is adaptation as the auditory system is highly adaptive to high-level sound, with physiological adaptation occurring at multiple sites in the cochlea (Fettiplace and Kim, 2014) and also in the cortex (Whitmire and Stanley, 2016). As such, sound levels are raising in order to meet what club managers consider to be the wishes of the customers who perceive loudness as a function of both the external level of sound and the degree of physiological adaptation. The policy level, finally, deals with the influence of legal requirements and aspects of government policy concerning noise levels in the workplace (McLeroy et al., 1988; see also Welch and Fremaux, 2017a,b). The Social Ecological Model, moreover, claims that influences toward good health should be present at each of the levels of the model in order to guarantee good health behavior.
A related theory has been proposed by Welch and Fremaux: the CAALM model, which is short for Conditioning, Adaptation, and Acculturation to Loud Music (Welch and Fremaux, 2017a,b). It is based on three processes: (1) an initial adaptation that should enable listeners to overcome the experienced discomfort that is associated with loud music; (2) a classically conditioned response that repeatedly pairs levels of loudness with perceived benefits of loudness such as masking of other unwanted sound, social benefits, arousal, excitement, and other associated benefits such as dancing, fun, friends, alcohol, or other substances, and (3) an acculturation process wherein large groups of listeners start to perceive loud music as the norm and as the common association of fun (see Figure 6).
FIGURE 6. Schematic diagram of the CAALM Model diagram showing the three parallel cycles that may lead to people enjoying loud music, and the role of personality as a moderating factor. (Figure adapted and republished with permission of Thieme Publishers from Welch and Fremaux, 2017a).
Underlying the model are several positive features of loud sound that contribute to the conditioning effect: (1) loud music masks unwanted sounds, (2) it enables more and greater socialization (cf. Cusick, 2006), (3) it provides opportunities for intimacy in crowded space, (4) it masks unpleasant thoughts, (5) it is arousing, and (6) it emphasizes personal identity, especially personal toughness and masculinity. The latter reflects culturally accepted norms of masculinity as being associated with activity and danger and may represent the neural interaction where a natural fear response would occur to the loud sound and then the person is able to exert control over that response, thus generating a feeling of strength (Welch and Fremaux, 2017b).
Whoops… more words than expected… last bit coming…
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Conclusions
The hearing systems in the ancestral lineage that led to H. sapiens have evolved in response to stable environmental conditions as far as the physics of sound is concerned (Lewis and Fay, 2004). As a result, our neural mechanisms for sound detection are characterized by many traits shared with other species. Therefore, the use of noise and loud sounds in music affects our hearing system independently of our music-specific interpretation of sound. After all, music as a human-specific form of communication has evolved only recently among hominins (Mithen, 2006). Bearing this in mind, it is reasonable to suppose that the role of infrasound and lower-frequency sounds in music is not primary as far as the recognition of musical structure is considered. This is especially true in the process of pitch structure perception as the precision of spectral analysis that occurs in the auditory system seems to be indispensable for pitch experience. Nevertheless, music as a vibrational energy is also a source of many extra-structural features that cannot be underestimated as the parts of our sensation of music. From this perspective, the role of the vestibular and tactile systems being involved in the process of infrasound and lower-frequency sound detection should be treated as a part of multimodal music experience. It is possible that thanks to the fast-developing sound technology, this part of music experience will become more important.
Care should be taken, further, with respect to broadly accepted ways of listening to sound levels above the threshold of discomfort. Liking such overstimulation is likely to spiral into patterns of addiction. The concept of maladaptive listening (Miranda and Claes, 2009; Garrido and Schubert, 2013) can be used in this context. Addiction, in fact, has been traditionally seen as being based around the concept of pathological usurpation of neural processes that normally serve reward-related learning. It can be considered as a maladaptive habit formation that involves the dopaminergic circuits of the brain, such as the nervus accumbens, the ventral tegmental area, the dorsal striatum, and the prefrontal cortex (Hyman et al., 2006). The case of music is quite interesting in this regard because of possible couplings with vestibular self-stimulation—also called the “dance habit,” which plays an important role in beat (Todd and Lee, 2015) and meter induction (Trainor et al., 2009; Trainor and Unrau, 2009) and allows a rapid reward-based selection of self-motion of the body in the sensory-motor circuits of the supplementary motor area (SMA) and the cingulate motor area (CMA) of the brain (Todd and Lee, 2015).
Listening to loud music, finally, seems to activate primitive mechanisms of experience, evoking to some extent an amodal kind of perception and surpassing to some extent boundaries between sensory modalities. It can be hypothesized that this is a return to the oceanic feeling or state, as suggested by Freud (Saarinen, 2012), or a desire to be surrounded by a cocoon of sound, as suggested by the rock and roll threshold with its excessive vibrotactile and haptic stimulation. People may find unusual stimulation of all kinds pleasurable, even when flirting with the threshold of pain.
Hope that’s OK… our love for subs could also be partly cultural and more about feeling music and being contained in a cacoon of sound rather than just about hearing bass.
The hearing systems in the ancestral lineage that led to H. sapiens have evolved in response to stable environmental conditions as far as the physics of sound is concerned (Lewis and Fay, 2004). As a result, our neural mechanisms for sound detection are characterized by many traits shared with other species. Therefore, the use of noise and loud sounds in music affects our hearing system independently of our music-specific interpretation of sound. After all, music as a human-specific form of communication has evolved only recently among hominins (Mithen, 2006). Bearing this in mind, it is reasonable to suppose that the role of infrasound and lower-frequency sounds in music is not primary as far as the recognition of musical structure is considered. This is especially true in the process of pitch structure perception as the precision of spectral analysis that occurs in the auditory system seems to be indispensable for pitch experience. Nevertheless, music as a vibrational energy is also a source of many extra-structural features that cannot be underestimated as the parts of our sensation of music. From this perspective, the role of the vestibular and tactile systems being involved in the process of infrasound and lower-frequency sound detection should be treated as a part of multimodal music experience. It is possible that thanks to the fast-developing sound technology, this part of music experience will become more important.
Care should be taken, further, with respect to broadly accepted ways of listening to sound levels above the threshold of discomfort. Liking such overstimulation is likely to spiral into patterns of addiction. The concept of maladaptive listening (Miranda and Claes, 2009; Garrido and Schubert, 2013) can be used in this context. Addiction, in fact, has been traditionally seen as being based around the concept of pathological usurpation of neural processes that normally serve reward-related learning. It can be considered as a maladaptive habit formation that involves the dopaminergic circuits of the brain, such as the nervus accumbens, the ventral tegmental area, the dorsal striatum, and the prefrontal cortex (Hyman et al., 2006). The case of music is quite interesting in this regard because of possible couplings with vestibular self-stimulation—also called the “dance habit,” which plays an important role in beat (Todd and Lee, 2015) and meter induction (Trainor et al., 2009; Trainor and Unrau, 2009) and allows a rapid reward-based selection of self-motion of the body in the sensory-motor circuits of the supplementary motor area (SMA) and the cingulate motor area (CMA) of the brain (Todd and Lee, 2015).
Listening to loud music, finally, seems to activate primitive mechanisms of experience, evoking to some extent an amodal kind of perception and surpassing to some extent boundaries between sensory modalities. It can be hypothesized that this is a return to the oceanic feeling or state, as suggested by Freud (Saarinen, 2012), or a desire to be surrounded by a cocoon of sound, as suggested by the rock and roll threshold with its excessive vibrotactile and haptic stimulation. People may find unusual stimulation of all kinds pleasurable, even when flirting with the threshold of pain.
Hope that’s OK… our love for subs could also be partly cultural and more about feeling music and being contained in a cacoon of sound rather than just about hearing bass.
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The above segments of papers can be summarised as; the atavistic elements of the warning systems located in the first of two human hearing systems are excited by bass frequencies.
This leads to an "audio boner" as we are often aroused by fear. Charging Hippos anyone ?
As fewer than fifty worldwide(living) have a true understanding of these simple tenets I find it unlikely that the panel of
the "Flower Pot Men" could observe or convey, a coherent and or meaningful prescription for sonic cues.
Kindest regards,G.
This leads to an "audio boner" as we are often aroused by fear. Charging Hippos anyone ?
As fewer than fifty worldwide(living) have a true understanding of these simple tenets I find it unlikely that the panel of
the "Flower Pot Men" could observe or convey, a coherent and or meaningful prescription for sonic cues.
Kindest regards,G.
For those who didn’t get out of the nightclub early enough that audio boner is still tintinabulating to this very day.
hi Ron, based on this you are taking cues from your old Martin Logan system to find a new system (recall some wise guy had started the NLF thread). Nothing to do with live. You are then just relating the Martin Logan to live.
Also, for solo vocals why would you need two bass towers
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No; I don't think sonic cues can be developed solely from listening to reproduced music on a stereo.
1) When did I ever say I listen solely to solo vocals?
2) When did I ever say I listen to solo vocals with no instrumental accompaniment like a guitar or a piano?
3) Pianos make sound below 250Hz -- so it is desirable to have a stereo system that can reproduce those frequencies. The bass towers cover 250Hz and below.
You gave solo vocals as goals.
Cues are often developed from listening to stereo as the older system is taken as reference, as an audiophile's auditory template gets defined by the sound he listens to regularly. If you listened to your Martin Logans daily, and 0 or 1 concert a year, the reference template for sound in your mind is the ML template.
Im not qualified to react on this article, I had to look up too many words to understand it... But it is nothing less than an academic hit-piece on dance music and and deep base lovers. All the elements are there: drawing lines from our evolution to fear of bass addition. "Liking such overstimulation is likely to spiral into patterns of addiction"
We dont know enough aubout our evolution to draw practically any psycological conclusions from it, its just an intellectual parlor play. And all talk about addition unless it is really a physical addition to a substance is overreaching and silly.
Maybe we can infer someting about why we like a sound today, what are our cues, any why we like a particular music system, but drawing from the history or speculating about our brain? No. Feel free to do it, but I dont buy it.
I dont think we have any certainty about our auditory evolution, and much less about what that means for the later music. Actually we dont know anything about the cues of the Romans or the Egyptians. I would love to hear the entertainment music or the military music of the romans, if they had it. The egyptians certainly had instruments, but the music is gone. I have listened to an ancient egyptian horn, and it was terrifying. Very discomforting sound. So what was the cue and who had it? The Gods?
Subsonic sounds is an interesting subject, going into medicine, and a part of our urban predicament. Deep bass is the foundation of any music in my opinion, from classical to dance.
Solo vocals is a musical genre, not a sonic cue.
Please re-read my posts. Sonic cues, as described in my theory, are not developed from listening to a stereo system.
However, whatever sonic cues led to the purchase of Martin-Logans may prejudice that audiophile in his evaluations of other systems, just as you suggest. I suspect that people do begin to evaluate other systems through the prism of their personal sonic cues. See my Post #2 hereof:
A corollary of this theory is that having subjectively selected our individual preferred sonic cues, we tend to dislike systems assembled to best achieve other sonic cues. If one assembles a system to maximize dynamics, is it any surprise that such person would prefer his/her system to a system which is not designed to focus most closely on the cue of dynamics?
Thank you for agreeing with the corollary.
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You seem to think sonic cues are not developed from a stereo system. I disagree. They are developed from frequent exposure. To the 95 percent of forum members, that is not live, but own system.
And no I am NOT rereading your posts on this thread unless you pay me. Loads
My typical evening routine includes a two-hour focused listening session. So I listen to my main system maybe 600 hours a year. This has been a good concert year for me - I’ve been to six so far, for about 15 hours of live music. All of it was amplified and none of it was “audiophile.” It goes without saying that my listening cues are reversed - my stereo is the benchmark, not live music. So shoot me.
Sure, there are lots of people who live in big cities with live music options every night of the week if they so desire. However, living in the city is often at cross purposes with being an audiophile because most people live in tiny apartments with shared walls. Think London, New York, Hong Kong, Paris. When I look at the systems of many WBF members, with large rooms, large speakers, multiple turntables etc., I’m not thinking they live in Manhattan. More like Long Island or Connecticut. Let’s face it - most audiophiles live in the ‘burbs and don’t have easy access to live music. We don’t live around the corner from Carnegie Hall. Combine this with the fact that our auditory memories are very short and you quickly realize that at home we are trying to recreate the FEELING of live performances - aided by visual and cultural inputs - rather than the sound of live performances. But live music is an inherently social activity, while listening to a stereo is the exact opposite. In my opinion, the whole exercise of bringing the live performance into your living room is a fool’s errand.
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I don’t disagree.
It is Ron saying that such audiophiles who don’t go to live are bringing sonic cues from live to choose their equipment. I have been rejecting the basic premise of this thread.
And I reject the premise that they pick apart the sound into sonic cues and select from them those trade-offs and compromises they prefer based on the idea that all systems are incomplete and flawed. Some select their gear not by choosing among a few sonic cues but rather by recognizing something similar in the presentation that reminds them of the whole experience of listening to live unamplified music, the gestalt or complete expression of sound/energy/experience they have when attending a live performance. Some strive for it all, not bits and pieces. I guess I am more optimistic about what is possible based on comparing certain systems to what I hear live.
Always a good way to judge a system is by voice reproduction to which everybody can relate
"Snobby " voices are rejected immediately
"Snobby " voices are rejected immediately
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