My Theory of Sonic Cues to Explain Different Sounding Systems

[the sound of Tao]

I see dogmatism most prevalent from those who criticize the horn SET hobbyists. I guess it’s all a matter of perspective.

I was going to say the most dogmatic by faaaaaar are the anti-horn anti-SETs brigade.

My god you can’t mention horn or a SET without someone compulsively jumping in and taking a big off topic sideways crack at all those who own them. It’s actually not an issue but it has become so predictable. Nobody’s frenetically attacking box or panel speakers and also all their owners at every turn or slamming everyone who owns SS amps at the mention of a solid state amp. It’s weird.

 

[AudioHR]

Responding to Peter. Internet glitch.

Yes I agree.
But I don't think he presented anything other than his personal preferences and point of view . Which are surely not the last word on this topic.

 

[morricab]

Hm ! View attachment 120353

At least you are entertained…are you not entertained??

 

[bonzo75]

Purely exploring the theory.

when we grow up, we often do so on MTV type channels, poop music, etc.

Going to classical music requires some effort, to go to concerts, and unless your parents are taking you to it, has to wait till an age where you grow up to afford it. But as such, requires a more dedicated effort after your initial childhood exposure period.

Our first foray into audio on the high street after Bose ends up with the best branded and best distributed, most on show speakers, like Wilson. SETs horns usually require a more dedicated effort.

finding music of streaming lists requires much less effort than understanding records, pressings, etc

Transistor amps and big push pulls require less effort than rolling/swapping

hitting the roon play requires less effort than aligning the cartridge.

Playing Taylor Swift and Spice girls requires less effort than understanding Oistrakh, Heifetz, Furtwangler, different compositions of Bach, Beethoven, etc

so is it possible that people who seek out live classical concerts and analog classical LPs put in more effort into the process, are more involved, and similarly search out the SETs horns equipment (more off the shelf), while the lazier digital streaming amplified music crowd simply pays a high retail margin from the comfort of their sofa to avoid FOMO and own some equipment to produce loud sound, and this is the essence of why people have different equipment?

of course, different search processes, music, etc will result in different cues.

please note, this is only a think piece (I say that with a lisp).

 

[morricab]

I actually find big four tower systems for scale, tubes for mid range warmth, and analog only as a more dogmatic position then Bonzo advocates. The defense is that it’s only personal preference based on experience. But that defense works for everybody.

Bonzo is actually more open to alternative approaches then many here. He also has more exposure to both live music and to different system configurations and presentations.

This accusation of dogmatism is actually fairly unfounded in my opinion. Even the natural sound approach does not specify specific typologies citing both analog and digital, tubes and solid-state, horns and cones as able to get you there. Even modest desktop systems and car stereos. It’s more about references, values and characteristics then it is about specific typologies. I see dogmatism most prevalent from those who criticize the horn SET hobbyists. I guess it’s all a matter of perspective.

He has more live exposure than you for sure but don’t assume he has more than all here…that would likely be a mistake.

 

[morricab]

I was not targeting Ked specifically, the quote left out the back and forth banter between him and Brad, but SET/horn lovers are definitely a special breed ! No mention of natural, i'm not getting anyway near that topic !

Don’t worry, once you have seen the light on the road to Damascus you will then be one of the chosen true believers…

 

[bonzo75]

He has more live exposure than you for sure but don’t assume he has more than all here…that would likely be a mistake.

you have the most Brad. Not that much listening to good performances in good halls but you heard your ex play violin in your room. None of us will be able to do that now.

 

[morricab]

you have the most Brad. Not that much listening to good performances in good halls but you heard your ex play violin in your room. None of us will be able to do that now.

You pretend to be privy to information that you can’t possibly know…like my concert going habits past and present. My ex played concerts every week. Not to mention the plethora of concerts attended that she didn’t play and once she became an ex. The year I lived in London i was twice or more per week at a concert…Zurich has constantly concerts I attended. It only slowed down once I had a family. For the record, I never said I had the most…just it’s unlikely you do…you trying to put words that aren’t there again to make a straw man.

 

[Lagonda]

Purely exploring the theory.

when we grow up, we often do so on MTV type channels, poop music, etc.

Going to classical music requires some effort, to go to concerts, and unless your parents are taking you to it, has to wait till an age where you grow up to afford it. But as such, requires a more dedicated effort after your initial childhood exposure period.

Our first foray into audio on the high street after Bose ends up with the best branded and best distributed, most on show speakers, like Wilson. SETs horns usually require a more dedicated effort.

finding music of streaming lists requires much less effort than understanding records, pressings, etc

Transistor amps and big push pulls require less effort than rolling/swapping

hitting the roon play requires less effort than aligning the cartridge.

Playing Taylor Swift and Spice girls requires less effort than understanding Oistrakh, Heifetz, Furtwangler, different compositions of Bach, Beethoven, etc

so is it possible that people who seek out live classical concerts and analog classical LPs put in more effort into the process, are more involved, and similarly search out the SETs horns equipment (more off the shelf), while the lazier digital streaming amplified music crowd simply pays a high retail margin from the comfort of their sofa to avoid FOMO and own some equipment to produce loud sound, and this is the essence of why people have different equipment?

of course, different search processes, music, etc will result in different cues.

please note, this is only a think piece (I say that with a lisp).

And lets not forget that the largest portion of the population, even among the audiophiles, do not care one iota for classical music, or going to classical concerts. It is also a matter of taste, not just convenience. Having to choose between Tailor Swift and a classical concert would truly be hard for me, do i want to puke or sleep in public ? It's a tough choice !

 

[PeterA]

He has more live exposure than you for sure but don’t assume he has more than all here…that would likely be a mistake.

Brad, you selectively edited the entire quote to distort and twist what I wrote. Here it is again:

“Bonzo is actually more open to alternative approaches then many here. He also has more exposure to both live music and to different system configurations and presentations.”

Ok so you might have more exposure to everything. Congratulations. My point stands that Bonzo has a lot of exposure and more than many here and to me seems less dogmatic than the anti SET horn crowd.

 

[Lagonda]

Don’t worry, once you have seen the light on the road to Damascus you will then be one of the chosen true believers…

I recently stumbled on to a old exchange between Ked and Peter, and had to chuckle a little ! https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/keithrs-dream-speaker-search.27069/page-11#post-554254

• Jan 31, 2019
• Add bookmark
• #205

Ked : "Regarding the snooty snog comment, I made it because I see this from the Boston crowd often (we went to a live show and our systems produce that superbly). Personally I don't like going to a live show to check if they play as well as our gear. If you go out you should to challenge your own views and learn. It is ok to change. Change is progress.

Incidentally Bill was the Peter of UK, his Focal (which could do more oomph than Magicos) were it. That was bass, oomph, and dynamics to him. We fought often when I tried to get him to hear horns. He sometimes left whatsapp groups in a huff, and once put the phone down when I was explaining what a horn would do better. He then messaged me after a few hours to say we shouldn't chat about hifi anymore, only about weight training.

Then, he accidentally heard the general's system and sold off his stuff and went in that direction overnight

So, Peter, Al, can still challenge what they think they know, but not everyone can do it accidentally, some need to do it intentionally. Then maybe Peter might become the Bill of Boston."

 

[Lagonda]

And shortly after, Peter sold of all his old gear, and went in a different direction !

 

[andromedaaudio]

I take my sonic cues from .... and yes i heard them live

 

[andromedaaudio]

I take my sonic cues from ... and yes i was there

 

[PeterA]

I was going to say the most dogmatic by faaaaaar are the anti-horn anti-SETs brigade.

My god you can’t mention horn or a SET without someone compulsively jumping in and taking a big off topic sideways crack at all those who own them. It’s actually not an issue but it has become so predictable. Nobody’s frenetically attacking box or panel speakers and also all their owners at every turn or slamming everyone who owns SS amps at the mention of a solid state amp. It’s weird.

Yes, it is very weird. Some seem haunted by it and simply can not move on. Integral to Ron’s theory, everyone seems to have a different system. Why not live and let live and respect that there are many approaches.

 

[bonzo75]

Brad, you selectively edited the entire quote to distort and twist what I wrote. Here it is again:

“Bonzo is actually more open to alternative approaches then many here. He also has more exposure to both live music and to different system configurations and presentations.”

Ok so you might have more exposure to everything. Congratulations. My point stands that Bonzo has a lot of exposure and more than many here and to me seems less dogmatic than the anti SET horn crowd.

Brad feels jealous and competitive. In his position I would be too about people like me. It’s all Freudian. Just a theory, but am sure it is right

 

[morricab]

Brad, you selectively edited the entire quote to distort and twist what I wrote. Here it is again:

“Bonzo is actually more open to alternative approaches then many here. He also has more exposure to both live music and to different system configurations and presentations.”

Ok so you might have more exposure to everything. Congratulations. My point stands that Bonzo has a lot of exposure and more than many here and to me seems less dogmatic than the anti SET horn crowd.

Which alternative approaches would those be Peter? I didn't actually quote you at all. Everyone knows what angle Ked is shooting for it seems except you.

 

[morricab]

Brad feels jealous and competitive. In his position I would be too about people like me. It’s all Freudian. Just a theory, but am sure it is right

Ked feels the need to project...it's a common psychological condition...

 

[PeterA]

And shortly after, Peter sold of all his old gear, and went in a different direction !

Milan, thanks for the trip down memory lane. What I cannot credit Kadar for is all of the experimenting I did getting rid of fancy power cords and cables and room treatment and working with speaker orientation. That led me down the natural sound path.

It was deciding to order the Micro Seki turntable to replace the SME and to check it out in Utah once it arrived in the United States that provided the opportunity for more exposure to efficient speaker systems, including 16 ohm cone speakers. It was also the visit reports from Steve and Mike and Marty and Ron.

I miss UK Bill. I wonder how he is doing.

 

[PeterA]

Which alternative approaches would those be Peter? I didn't actually quote you at all. Everyone knows what angle Ked is shooting for it seems except you.

Kedar does discuss cone speaker alternatives quite regularly and even some SS amps. I know of his preferences for FLH Altecs and Thomas Meyer. You have yours too. Are you not a dealer for Aries Cerat?