Nagra HD phono prototype

[mtemur]

Perhaps someone with more knowledge can explain this:
With too much Antiskate, the output of the Right channel is Lower than the Left. This is clearly visible on the meter - the L needle has more output.
Why?

Right channel is on the outer groove wall. I would have thought that too much AS would increase output in the R channel; but it’s the opposite. Is it more because you actually prevent the stylus for going too far into the inner grooves, which are the quieter parts of the L channel? So effectively it’s not that the R channel is quieter; but that the L channel is louder than the R?

Anti-skating isn’t always associated with output level. There are many things involved and it’s impossible to say you get more output from right channel when you increase anti-skating. Azimuth, zenith, anti-skating, SRA etc are all interlinked. The only thing that can be said about anti-skating is that it should be just right to enable cantilever to move from one side to the other in the groove equally. Too many things are involved, alignments, cartridge’s suspension, turntable and tonearm makes it impossible to give your questions an easy answer.

 

[jfrech]

I've started playing with the silly easy adjustable loading. I agree @Zeotrope, you can easily hear each increment. Just a beautiful sounding phono stage, I have about 5 hours playing time on now.

 

[Zeotrope]

Anti-skating isn’t always associated with output level. There are many things involved and it’s impossible to say you get more output from right channel when you increase anti-skating. Azimuth, zenith, anti-skating, SRA etc are all interlinked. The only thing that can be said about anti-skating is that it should be just right to enable cantilever to move from one side to the other in the groove equally. Too many things are involved, alignments, cartridge’s suspension, turntable and tonearm makes it impossible to give your questions an easy answer.

Agreed but in this case only AS was adjusted. i don’t think small changes in AS will affect SRA or Azimuth?

 

[jfrech]

So listening this am, what is striking me regarding my new HD Phono, while there is resolution, timbre, quietness improvements (like significant). It's how free and at ease the music is. Like it's been released from the boundaries of the speaker and room. So open, so involving, just draws you into each recording, especially live music. LP after LP is a new listening experience ....

 

[Zeotrope]

From Fremer’s review of the Dan D’Agostino Momentum Phono amp and the Audio Research Reference Phono 3:

The Momentum couldn't quite match the Reference Phono 3's vibrant, richly saturated harmonic presentation—nothing else I've heard does—but it produced taut bass lines, dynamic slam, and resolution of microdynamics and inner detail that the tubed Ref 3 could not. In audio, you can't have everything.

I would argue the HD Phono does both!

 

[Zeotrope]

Load options (built-in) may be unprecedented:
MC: NO LOAD / 5 / 10 / 15 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 / 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 75 / 80 / 85 / 90 / 100 / 105 / 110 / 115 / 125 / 130 / 135 / 140 / 150 / 155 / 160 / 165 / 175 / 180 / 185 / 190 / 200 / 205 / 210 / 215 / 225 / 230 / 235 / 240 / 250 / 255 / 260 / 265 / 275 / 280 / 285 / 290 / 300 / 305 / 310 / 315 / 325 / 330 /335 / 340 / 350 / 355 / 360 / 365 / 375 / 380 / 385 / 390 (?)
MM: C load: 0 pF / 47 pF / 100 pF / 150 pF / 220 pF

Plus - Nagra has said that the HD Phono has the potential to be used as a R2R phono.

 

[jfrech]

Load options (built-in) may be unprecedented:
MC: NO LOAD / 5 / 10 / 15 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 / 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 75 / 80 / 85 / 90 / 100 / 105 / 110 / 115 / 125 / 130 / 135 / 140 / 150 / 155 / 160 / 165 / 175 / 180 / 185 / 190 / 200 / 205 / 210 / 215 / 225 / 230 / 235 / 240 / 250 / 255 / 260 / 265 / 275 / 280 / 285 / 290 / 300 / 305 / 310 / 315 / 325 / 330 /335 / 340 / 350 / 355 / 360 / 365 / 375 / 380 / 385 / 390 (?)
MM: C load: 0 pF / 47 pF / 100 pF / 150 pF / 220 pF

Plus - Nagra has said that the HD Phono has the potential to be used as a R2R phono.

My Allaerts is a 32 ohm cartridge. They recommend 845ohm loading (but this was into a SS phono). I started off at 390 and I am settling in around 325...clearly hear each change, and on some records bump it up some and others load it down some...

My Nagra MC-4 should arrive next week or two. So looking forward to using it...I really loved my MC-6 which I traded in...

 

[Zeotrope]

I was astounded for the entire listening session tonight - the HD Phono has made vinyl sound like digital — i.e., taking the best attributes of digital (zero noise, extended frequency range), while retaining all of the benefits of analog. It’s just amazing.

 

[jfrech]

I was astounded for the entire listening session tonight - the HD Phono has made vinyl sound like digital — i.e., taking the best attributes of digital (zero noise, extended frequency range), while retaining all of the benefits of analog. It’s just amazing.

You know my dealer and I were talking about this. We said the same thing. Everything is so quiet, what you used to think of as vinyl noise seems to now be transients acting up somewhere in the (former) playback chain. I am finding myself listening at lower playback levels but getting more out of each recording.

 

[Another Johnson]

From Fremer’s review of the Dan D’Agostino Momentum Phono amp and the Audio Research Reference Phono 3:

I would argue the HD Phono does both!

Could be. The 3SE is a significant upgrade over the 3. And whatever any phono preamp presents is definitely affected by the preamp it feeds. Based on my own use of Nagra gear many years ago, I’m sure their current systems are superb. I noticed in a video that Darryl Wilson’s got Nagra in his personal office listening system.

I expect the Nagra HD to continue to delight. Enjoy!

 

[Zeotrope]

Someone asked me if I considered the CH Precision P10. I did, but I didn’t see the value, to be honest. Dual mono is very important at this price point, and makes a big difference to the sound quality (according to a recent P10 review). To get dual mono in a P10 you have to spend about 50% more than the Nagra cost (~$135K). I didn’t see the value in spending that much more, and practically I don’t have room for 4 chassis. I also don’t need all the myriad # of settings, as I will only ever have 1-2 cartridges.
The litany of settings on offer is interesting, but I am not really a tweaker (as much as I designed my own speakers!); but these days I just like to sit and listen and relax. With the P10 I would be switching Neumann on/off [it’s a useless feature, BTW], current/voltage gain, Feedback global vs local… and I would want to experiment with each of these on every album. In addition to Load and VTA, of course.

Finally, CH is a young company. What happens if they cease operations and the P10, which is effectively a PC as much as it is an analog amp, needs repair?

Would still be interesting to hear a direct comparison of the two, assuming all the variables can be controlled.

 

[jfrech]

I am with you. I am looking for pure tube, vs solid state and 4 boxes. I do like the adj loading but love the simplicity. Nagra has stood the test of time, that's for sure.

My system is sounding GREAT, I'll try NOS tubes soon !

 

[Zeotrope]

I am with you. I am looking for pure tube, vs solid state and 4 boxes. I do like the adj loading but love the simplicity. Nagra has stood the test of time, that's for sure.

I have a noisy tube, so Rene sending a few more. Otherwise, my system is sounding GREAT

Right, forgot to add the tube sound - important, especially for a phono stage, in my view.

Post some photos of the inside of the unit when you open it!

 

[jfrech]

Tracking ability and distortion is what I noticed improve during break-in, and I am at about 90-100 hours on the MC-4 so far.

Curious what you mean by “I've had my Transparent Magnum Opus calibrated for the 4 ohm so it won't sound the best...”? Is this a speaker cable?

So I swapped my Nagra MC-6 for the MC-4. Well, damn and wow. That single layer coils that some cartridges offer is a meaningful diff. Only about 5 hours playing time so far...

 

[Zeotrope]

So I swapped my Nagra MC-6 for the MC-4. Well, damn and wow. That single layer coils that some cartridges offer is a meaningful diff. Only about 5 hours playing time so far...

Great to hear!
I have heard that break-in is long > 100 hours. I have about 120 on mine. It sounded great from the start though.
I made changes to VTA and AS since it was installed, so I am not sure how it changed it sound strictly from break-in. Rene did mention it will “sag” a bit, like any cart, after it breaks in, so you will want to increase tonearm height.
VTA makes a big difference with this FGS stylus profile. I have two settings I go back and forth between, depending on vinyl thickness. Even a small change ( < 0.1 degree in stylus angle) makes a notable difference in sound quality. When you get VTA bang on it makes a big difference. Anyone who says small changes in stylus angle are undetectable to the ear are wrong - with this FGS stylus shape anyway.

 

[Rotatoubib]

Maybe I am wrong, but if the cartridge sag, you need to adjust VTA and lower the tonearm, right?

 

[Zeotrope]

Maybe I am wrong, but if the cartridge sag, you need to adjust VTA and lower the tonearm, right?

Maybe you are right! I was told to raise the tonearm when the cartridge has broken in and sags (relative to when new)... but I actually found that lowering the tonearm improved the sound after a dozen hours or so of playback (which I attributed to the arm being set too high to start with - but that’s unlikely, as it was setup by Rene from Nagra…).

 

[jfrech]

Great to hear!
I have heard that break-in is long > 100 hours. I have about 120 on mine. It sounded great from the start though.
I made changes to VTA and AS since it was installed, so I am not sure how it changed it sound strictly from break-in. Rene did mention it will “sag” a bit, like any cart, after it breaks in, so you will want to increase tonearm height.
VTA makes a big difference with this FGS stylus profile. I have two settings I go back and forth between, depending on vinyl thickness. Even a small change ( < 0.1 degree in stylus angle) makes a notable difference in sound quality. When you get VTA bang on it makes a big difference. Anyone who says small changes in stylus angle are undetectable to the ear are wrong - with this FGS stylus shape anyway.

Where is your loading set? I've been 50-65. Did you find this changes as the cartridge breaks in? I'll. be sure to check VTA as it breaks in...Good tip

 

[Zeotrope]

Where is your loading set? I've been 50-65. Did you find this changes as the cartridge breaks in? I'll. be sure to check VTA as it breaks in...Good tip

I mainly use 65-75 gain but have gone as low as 30, for example on Norah Jones’ Come Away with Me, which is well known for having excess sibilance in the recording. It’s audible on “exotic” stylus shapes. At 30 the distortion is essentially gone.
Rene said to try Loading between 30-80.
You have the gain set at the midpoint?

 

[jfrech]

I mainly use 65-75 gain but have gone as low as 30, for example on Norah Jones’ Come Away with Me, which is well known for having excess sibilance in the recording. It’s audible on “exotic” stylus shapes. At 30 the distortion is essentially gone.
Rene said to try Loading between 30-80.
You have the gain set at the midpoint?

Interesting. I'll try lower and higher, I've been mostly at either 50 or 65 to start. Yes on the midpoint gain, I had it +6 but was a bit much. I still have a ton of gain at the midpoint...Also I have a Kuzma 4 point, so very easy to nudge VTA. I'll start that also as I get a few more hours on the Nagra MC-4.