Natural Sound

[PeterA]

Fransisco, I just make a note of the cartridge setting parameters including how many cards for VTA. It’s pretty easy to switch cartridges and then confirm the settings. Then a few minutes of listening in case any final adjustments are needed.

with this VDH Colibrí, I find I’m using the same cartridge for the vast majority of my listening, so it really doesn’t matter.

 

[Folsom]

The VTA seems to have as much to do with actual angle as it does some sorta of interaction between the entire system, like resonance of sorts. I say this because even conical carts are sensitive to VTA in the much smaller degrees of change.

 

[PeterA]

People search for what is best and correct, but mostly for objective data, repeatability, and confirmation. This is tough, IMO. The best way is, and always has been, to adjust by listening to the sound. Every cartridge/arm/system/room interaction is different. The process is pretty straight forward, but it takes experience and practice to learn how to do it consistently and for best results. David has taught me his method twice now, and I am still learning, but it is getting easier.

The only way to be sure what is best is to make the necessary effort, with the right tools, to listen and adjust for what sounds best in a given context.

 

[Lagonda]

People search for what is best and correct, but mostly for objective data, repeatability, and confirmation. This is tough, IMO. The best way is, and always has been, to adjust by listening to the sound. Every cartridge/arm/system/room interaction is different. The process is pretty straight forward, but it takes experience and practice to learn how to do it consistently and for best results. David has taught me his method twice now, and I am still learning, but it is getting easier.

The only way to be sure what is best is to make the necessary effort, with the right tools, to listen and adjust for what sounds best in a given context.

It also requires good hearing, something that is not always a given, maybe one of the reasons so many want to measure, set and forget ! Another reason to just go digital !

 

[microstrip]

Fransisco, I just make a note of the cartridge setting parameters including how many cards for VTA. It’s pretty easy to switch cartridges and then confirm the settings. Then a few minutes of listening in case any final adjustments are needed.

with this VDH Colibrí, I find I’m using the same cartridge for the vast majority of my listening, so it really doesn’t matter.

Surely, the method is valid and successful for some people - the number of cards is enough for them. But only for a precise owner and system, you are not able to share any useful (I mean reproducible) information to others.

Although interesting for a few followers, IMHO the extreme dependency on subjective parameters does not help vinyl. The idea that experienced audiophiles with tens of years of practice only managed to set up a cartridge optimally the last week is not encouraging!

 

[microstrip]

It also requires good hearing, something that is not always a given, maybe one of the reasons so many want to measure, set and forget ! Another reason to just go digital !

No Lagonda, IMHO it is not a question of hearing. Most people simply know about the limitations of vinyl and acknowledge the volatility of subjective findings. It is why I use copies of master tape and a Studer A80 as a reference for analog. Using the proper instruments I was able to tune my tape system to industry standards that are much closer to original sound than any vinyl.

IMHO there is space for very different approaches in this hobby. Suggesting that people like accurate instruments because they do not trust their ears is a poor idea. BTW, as far as I understood one the main objectives of Natural Sound is set and forget. Am I wrong?

 

[Lagonda]

No Lagonda, IMHO it is not a question of hearing. Most people simply know about the limitations of vinyl and acknowledge the volatility of subjective findings. It is why I use copies of master tape and a Studer A80 as a reference for analog. Using the proper instruments I was able to tune my tape system to industry standards that are much closer to original sound than any vinyl.

IMHO there is space for very different approaches in this hobby. Suggesting that people like accurate instruments because they do not trust their ears is a poor idea. BTW, as far as I understood one the main objectives of Natural Sound is set and forget. Am I wrong?

Set RIGHT and forget ! If you can not distinguish the RIGHT part with your ears, what is the purpose of the whole exercise anyway ? Theoretical High-Fi musings and reading books aside, most of us mostly listen to the music with our ears, not a measuring instrument ! So you set the cartridge where it sounds right to you and your ears. If you cannot hear the difference, stick to digital !

 

[microstrip]

Yes, the same is true for any other cartridge brand I used.

How and what does it take into account? What if realistic and accessible means of measurement?

..)

david

People can find a good summary of the technique here. https://www.analogplanet.com/conten...icroscope-set-92-degree-stylus-rake-angle-sra
VTA has been a subject of debate for more than half a century , we can find all kind of techniques to set it.

 

[PeterA]

Surely, the method is valid and successful for some people - the number of cards is enough for them. But only for a precise owner and system, you are not able to share any useful (I mean reproducible) information to others.

Although interesting for a few followers, IMHO the extreme dependency on subjective parameters does not help vinyl. The idea that experienced audiophiles with tens of years of practice only managed to set up a cartridge optimally the last week is not encouraging!

That's right Fransisco. Surely indeed, but efforts have their rewards. Same with speaker set up in a given room, listening seat locations, and tuning acoustics. You want transferable data to ease set up? Tell me to the nearest cm where your listening seat is and precisely where your absorption panel is.

Optimal is a very high standard. Most never get there in any endeavor. Are we to just raise our arms in defeat, give up at our own mediocrity and inabilities, to read some expert's book for salvation and hope for the best, always searching and hoping and never finding? This is a hobby and should be enjoyable. It is fluid and we gain from experience.

You seem to have abandoned your vinyl for what exactly? Sound quality, convenience, knowing you don't need to work hard to optimize? Reading and listening to bits with the assurance it is easy and you are done? Congratulations. Stay engaged in vinyl threads because they are interesting. No emoji needed. Wink, smile, roll eyes.

 

[microstrip]

Set RIGHT and forget ! If you can not distinguish the RIGHT part with your ears, what is the purpose of the whole exercise anyway ? Theoretical High-Fi musings and reading books aside, most of us mostly listen to the music with our ears, not a measuring instrument ! So you set the cartridge where it sounds right to you and your ears. If you cannot hear the difference, stick to digital !

It seems you do not want to understand the difference between listening for setting up and listening for enjoyment. Curiously setting up digital is equally exigent on good ears - some people sticking to vinyl explained their reasons on this forum several times.

And yes, there are lot of interesting things to discuss on these matters concerning stereo. It is why we have WBF and many other audio forums.

 

[microstrip]

That's right Fransisco. Surely indeed, but efforts have their rewards. Same with speaker set up in a given room, listening seat locations, and tuning acoustics. You want transferable data to ease set up? Tell me to the nearest cm where your listening seat is and precisely where your absorption panel is.

Peter,

Sorry IMHO there is no relation between your answer and what is being discussed. Source and speakers or acoustics are not comparable. Please do not move the subject. Curiously I had a very interesting debate in these lines - the transfer of acoustics information - with Ethan Winner long ago in this forum.

Optimal is a very high standard. Most never get there in any endeavor. Are we to just raise our arms in defeat, give up at our own mediocrity and inabilities, to read some expert's book for salvation and hope for the best, always searching and hoping and never finding? This is a hobby and should be enjoyable. It is fluid and we gain from experience.

Sorry I smile when I read the word "optimal" concerning stereo. Reading expert books or listening to mentors are just ways to help in our way to enjoyment - I fully agree with you. When you say "It is fluid and we gain from experience." you are saying in different ways the famous sentence "stereo is an individual experience ". Some people will add "never ending" , others forget about this aspect.

You seem to have abandoned your vinyl for what exactly? Sound quality, convenience, knowing you don't need to work hard to optimize? Reading and listening to bits with the assurance it is easy and you are done? Congratulations. Stay engaged in vinyl threads because they are interesting. No emoji needed. Wink, smile, roll eyes.

I have not abandoned vinyl - simply it settled some time ago on the TechDas + Graham /SME 3102R/ VdH or Sumiko. Probably it will change again in the future, who knows. Currently it is used only for listening pleasure.

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

Sorry IMHO there is no relation between your answer and what is being discussed. Source and speakers or acoustics are not comparable. Please do not move the subject. Curiously I had a very interesting debate in these lines - the transfer of acoustics information - with Ethan Winner long ago in this forum.



Sorry I smile when I read the word "optimal" concerning stereo. Reading expert books or listening to mentors are just ways to help in our way to enjoyment - I fully agree with you. When you say "It is fluid and we gain from experience." you are saying in different ways the famous sentence "stereo is an individual experience ". Some people will add "never ending" , others forget about this aspect.



I have not abandoned vinyl - simply it settled some time ago on the TechDas + Graham /SME 3102R/ VdH or Sumiko. Probably it will change again in the future, who knows. Currently it is used only for listening pleasure.

Fransisco, what else could your vinyl front and be used for besides listening pleasure? And I think my post is relevant because you were asking about transferable data with cartridge set up from system to system and complaining VTA can not be transferred. Every cartridges is made differently and Fremer's 92° recommendation is very general, ballpark only and certainly not optimal. It might be good enough for some listeners but how exactly do you measure it? In my opinion the effort would be more efficient, easier, and likely better, to simply adjusting VTA by ear and listening to the results.

I am saying there are many aspects of the audio hobby which are not transferable by data from one system and room to another. More to the point, every system and many of its aspects, are not transferable and are very specific to the context of the system and room and, some would say, of the listener.

 

[microstrip]

Fransisco, what else could your vinyl front and be used for besides listening pleasure? And I think my post is relevant because you were asking about transferable data with cartridge set up from system to system and complaining VTA can not be transferred. Every cartridges is made differently And framers 92° recommendation it’s very general and certainly not optimal. It might be good enough for some listeners but how exactly do you measure it. In my opinion the effort would be more successful to simply adjust VTA by listening.

It took you decades to reach such level, depending on help of a single person that we both respect. Michael Fremer technique has a good theoretical and statistical foundation, it is widely documented, reproducible and is openly debated in many forums. The essence of it is that it takes in consideration every cartridge is differently made. Surely not a perfect technique . Unfortunately IMHO the only optimal way is setting individually VTA for each recording, as you did for a long time, something I do not consider for me. BTW, I only discuss the 92º technique in your thread because David brought it here. We had other threads on alternative equally valid techniques, including software aided tools and test LPs in WBF.

I’m saying there are many aspects of the audio hobby which are not transferable by data from one system and room to another. More to the point, every system and many of its aspects, are not transferable and are very specific to the context of the system and room and some would say of the listener.

Yes, you are right many aspects are not transferable and are reported for entertainment and general knowledge. But when people ask you for how many cards they are wanting something reproducible, aren't them?

 

[PeterA]

It took you decades to reach such level, depending on help of a single person that we both respect. Michael Fremer technique has a good theoretical and statistical foundation, it is widely documented, reproducible and is openly debated in many forums. The essence of it is that it takes in consideration every cartridge is differently made. Surely not a perfect technique . Unfortunately IMHO the only optimal way is setting individually VTA for each recording, as you did for a long time, something I do not consider for me. BTW, I only discuss the 92º technique in your thread because David brought it here. We had other threads on alternative equally valid techniques, including software aided tools and test LPs in WBF.


Yes, you are right many aspects are not transferable and are reported for entertainment and general knowledge. But when people ask you for how many cards they are wanting something reproducible, aren't them?

There is another technique: Listening and adjusting by ear. No need to reach the mythical 92 or buy lots of software aids. People are free to make those choices, but you described "optimal", and optimal is achieved by listening and adjusting by ear. I am not an expert, but I can now get closer to optimal. This is David's system, or was. It is certainly his complete vision of a system from beginning to end. He came to optimize it in this setting and to complete the service. I am learning from him, just as he learned from others. It is a long endeavor, especially as I begin to realize I did many things wrong and followed the wrong advice by reading the wrong things. Or I simply changed priorities and my understanding.....

People may ask and want to know how "many cards" so they can reproduce results. I am trying to tell them, and you, that I do not think it is transferable, no more than where your listening seat is located or the angle of your speakers. Surely this is clear.

 

[ddk]

People can find a good summary of the technique here. https://www.analogplanet.com/conten...icroscope-set-92-degree-stylus-rake-angle-sra
VTA has been a subject of debate for more than half a century , we can find all kind of techniques to set it.

Whatever rocks your boat! NOTHING I’ve read on that site regarding VTA adds up to much and shows the lack of skill and knowledge when it comes to VTA/SRA adjustments. You either understand the process and the Sound or you don’t, it’s not complicated.

david

 

[ddk]

It took you decades to reach such level, depending on help of a single person that we both respect. Michael Fremer technique has a good theoretical and statistical foundation, it is widely documented, reproducible and is openly debated in many forums. The essence of it is that it takes in consideration every cartridge is differently made. Surely not a perfect technique . Unfortunately IMHO the only optimal way is setting individually VTA for each recording, as you did for a long time, something I do not consider for me. BTW, I only discuss the 92º technique in your thread because David brought it here. We had other threads on alternative equally valid techniques, including software aided tools and test LPs in WBF.


Yes, you are right many aspects are not transferable and are reported for entertainment and general knowledge. But when people ask you for how many cards they are wanting something reproducible, aren't them?

You obviously missed out on decades of turntables and setup before Fremer was even born. You talk about reproducing results but not quantify what the results are Francisco. What does 92 degree give anyone and the process itself has so many flaws and physical impediments?

david

 

[Lagonda]

You obviously missed out on decades of turntables and setup before Fremer was even born. You talk about reproducing results but not quantify what the results are Francisco. What does 92 degree give anyone and the process itself has so many flaws and physical impediments?

david

I think his adoptation of the 92 degree Microscope technique coincided with the review of hearing aids. Coincidentally maybe !

 

[trekpilot]

Peter or ddk,

How are you using the playing cards when you are setting / adjusting the VTA?
I need a little help visualizing what you are doing.

Thanks,
Scott

 

[PeterA]

Peter or ddk,

How are you using the playing cards when you are setting / adjusting the VTA?
I need a little help visualizing what you are doing.

Thanks,
Scott

Hello Scott,

There are two locking collars around the SME 3012R armpost. The lower one locks the post in place (height and rotation) to the arm base, and the upper collar locks the arm rest to the post. When the arm height is raised or lowered, the two locking collars get further apart or closer together. One can place a number of playing cards in the gap, pushed against the vertical arm post, between the two collars. One simply loosens the lower collar to raise or lower the arm post relative to the arm base with the allen wrench and sets the height with the number of cards. It is a simple, straightforward, repeatable, and very effective way to gauge and measure adjustments.

I first heard of the process from David, but I do not know if it originated with him.

 

[trekpilot]

Hello Scott,

There are two locking collars around the SME 3012R armpost. The lower one locks the post in place (height and rotation) to the arm base, and the upper collar locks the arm rest to the post. When the arm height is raised or lowered, the two locking collars get further apart or closer together. One can place a number of playing cards in the gap, pushed against the vertical arm post, between the two collars. One simply loosens the lower collar to raise or lower the arm post relative to the arm base with the allen wrench and sets the height with the number of cards. It is a simple, straightforward, repeatable, and very effective way to gauge and measure adjustments.

I first heard of the process from David, but I do not know if it originated with him.

Peter,
Makes perfect sense, very clever and inexpensive way of setting up VTA .

BTW your room looks awesome with the new shelf!

Scott