Natural Sound

[MadFloyd]

The system is all SE cable termination type is irrelevant but quality of wire and termination matter.

david

Are you certain that's the case? In my experience SE tube amps don't handle XLR conversion without coloration (and often, rolled off highs). My CATs certainly fall into this category.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the XLR cables.

 

[ddk]

Are you certain that's the case? In my experience SE tube amps don't handle XLR conversion without coloration (and often, rolled off highs). My CATs certainly fall into this category.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the XLR cables.

I can only talk about Lamm SETs that I have experience with, it’s XLR connectors are really adaptors for people who already own balanced wires. You have to ask CAT about his amps but you’re using a balanced preamp going to a SE amp that’s not the case with Peter, that will change things.

david

 

[microstrip]

I can only talk about Lamm SETs that I have experience with, it’s XLR connectors are really adaptors for people who already own balanced wires. You have to ask CAT about his amps but you’re using a balanced preamp going to a SE amp that’s not the case with Peter, that will change things.

david

Yes, the XLR adaptors of the Lamm ML3 are added for convenience. However pin 3 is shorted to ground - this means that if we use it with a real balanced preamplifier and a balanced cable we are shorting the inverting phase of the preamplifier, possibly degrading the sound quality of the non-inverting phase due to the brutal increase in current in the shorted leg. All the balanced preamplifiers I tried sounded better with an external XLR adapter with a load of 39 kohm or using a SE cable directly to the SE input. As always, IMHO, YMMV.

 

[steve williams]

Hello Christoph, that is difficult to describe. I wrote this in my report:

"It is hard to describe the sound and how it changed over the three days. It is certainly more dynamic and present in the room. The tone is more beautiful and the timbre is more correct. The music comes more to life in the room and it simply sounds more right. This is natural sound to me."

I can now add the following: The instruments and musicians seem more present, more in the room if it is a studio recording, or I am more transported to the venue if it is a "live" recording of instruments on a stage. Everything sounds slightly more real. The sound is more immediate and there seems to be slightly less distortion because it sounds more clean/clear. I have often remarked that the single adjective I would use to describe the BSO performances that I have heard is "clarity". There is now more of that quality.

Yet, it is very relaxed in the sense there is no fatigue. I can listen loud if the music calls for it. There is no harshness in the highs because I think David's cartridge set up is better with lower distortion. Basically, the VTA is now correct, but there is also more nuance and tonal shading. Dynamics were good before, but now they are explosive and clean and open. Everything is slightly more effortless. Also, with the slight adjustments to the cartridge, the new cable, and the adjusted wood louvres, perhaps even the new rack and stands, there is better tonal balance, and no emphasis of one frequency over another.

I thought I had gotten it pretty close, but David simply took it a bit further. The sound is more complete, and I must really reiterate, that it is more natural. Sorry, but it seems simply the best way to describe it.

Thats why David has set up all of my cartridges...especially the Vdh which really sings once the VTA is correct. How many cards did you use. IIRC ddk used 38. What I found very interesting with David and VTA is that whenever I thought it was spot on David would always say let's be certain by going one more card as well as taking away one more card and several times that one card made such a difference in dynamics

 

[steve williams]

Yes, the XLR adaptors of the Lamm ML3 are added for convenience. However pin 3 is shorted to ground - this means that if we use it with a real balanced preamplifier and a balanced cable we are shorting the inverting phase of the preamplifier, possibly degrading the sound quality of the non-inverting phase due to the brutal increase in current in the shorted leg. All the balanced preamplifiers I tried sounded better with an external XLR adapter with a load of 39 kohm or using a SE cable directly to the SE input. As always, IMHO, YMMV.

Yes the Lamm LL1 (1.1) is an inverting preamp and speaker wires from the amp to the speakers must be reversed. My interconnect from the LL1 to the ML3 is XLR terminated but in essence is a SE wire due to pin 3 being shorted to ground

 

[PeterA]

Thats why David has set up all of my cartridges...especially the Vdh which really sings once the VTA is correct. How many cards did you use. IIRC ddk used 38. What I found very interesting with David and VTA is that whenever I thought it was spot on David would always say let's be certain by going one more card as well as taking away one more card and several times that one card made such a difference in dynamics

I agree Steve, once in the zone, that last card or two can make the magic. The number or cards used in not transferable from table to table for a number of reasons. It all depends on the difference in height between the armboard and the platter surface, but also, even with the same SME 3012R, each vdH stylus/cantilever/cartridge assembly is different. I have recorded all settings for each specific cartridge and whether or not it is on the front or rear arm so that I can switch and return when needed.

One must adjust each cartridge/arm for the table and the best way to do that is by listening and following a repeatable procedure. Having the right set up disk is also important.

 

[steve williams]

I agree Steve, once in the zone, that last card or two can make the magic. The number or cards used in not transferable from table to table for a number of reasons. It all depends on the difference in height between the armboard and the platter surface, but also, even with the same SME 3012R, each vdH stylus/cantilever/cartridge assembly is different. I have recorded all settings for each specific cartridge and whether or not it is on the front or rear arm so that I can switch and return when needed.

One must adjust each cartridge/arm for the table and the best way to do that is by listening and following a repeatable procedure. Having the right set up disk is also important.

I understand that. I was interested what your Micro Seiki height was. And FWIW the number of cards used for my SME3012R was different than that for my SME3010R. And yes what I learned from David is “just when you think you’re there confirm by going up one or down one as you might be surprised “

 

[PeterA]

I understand that. I was interested what your Micro Seiki height was. And FWIW the number of cards used for my SME3012R was different than that for my SME3010R. And yes what I learned from David is “just when you think you’re there confirm by going up one or down one as you might be surprised “

Hello Steve. What part of my turntable would you like to know the height of?

 

[Folsom]

I'm wishing any arm I had was card stackable right now! (I have plans for plinths and fittings of SME, it'll take place at some point)

But I have found there is certainly a sweet range. With one of my carts right now bass was a really good indicator on the Harvest album. It sounds really unnatural unless you get somewhere near the sweet range. For violin I'm not sure it really pronounced the difference as much. But that's just one cart.

 

[PeterA]

I'm wishing any arm I had was card stackable right now! (I have plans for plinths and fittings of SME, it'll take place at some point)

But I have found there is certainly a sweet range. With one of my carts right now bass was a really good indicator on the Harvest album. It sounds really unnatural unless you get somewhere near the sweet range. For violin I'm not sure it really pronounced the difference as much. But that's just one cart.

I find the best sound when it is balanced and that the mids and highs are within a small range but the bass is critical and the final test. When finished, nothing should stick out.

 

[Folsom]

I find the best sound when it is balanced and that the mids and highs are within a small range but the bass is critical and the final test. When finished, nothing should stick out.

Also low listening volume seems to be much improved in the sweet range. I'm not sure I've moved to beyond, but sweet, yes.

 

[PeterA]

Also low listening volume seems to be much improved in the sweet range. I'm not sure I've moved to beyond, but sweet, yes.

Depends if sweet is at moments or all the time. Don't want much sweetness. It's a flavor, IMO. Beyond is simply beyond, closer to natural.

 

[Folsom]

Depends if sweet is at moments or all the time. Don't want much sweetness. It's a flavor, IMO. Beyond is simply beyond, closer to natural.

I mean sweet as in good, not sweet as a quality.

 

[DaveC]

Yes, the XLR adaptors of the Lamm ML3 are added for convenience. However pin 3 is shorted to ground - this means that if we use it with a real balanced preamplifier and a balanced cable we are shorting the inverting phase of the preamplifier, possibly degrading the sound quality of the non-inverting phase due to the brutal increase in current in the shorted leg. All the balanced preamplifiers I tried sounded better with an external XLR adapter with a load of 39 kohm or using a SE cable directly to the SE input. As always, IMHO, YMMV.

Lots of SE amps that have XLR ins either ground or float pin3, it wouldn't take much more to simply ground pin3 via a resistor with the same value as the input impedance of the amp. This would load both signal legs of the sending device equally.

IMO it's best to use the RCA ins on SE amps along with an XLR > RCA cable with the resistor inside the XLR plug. This makes the cable matched to the amp, but the resistor can be changed easily, or the XLR can be removed and an RCA plug installed if you do the right thing and get rid of your balanced components.

It's even better to use a good trafo, but more $ and complexity.

 

[Al M.]

Lots of SE amps that have XLR ins either ground or float pin3, it wouldn't take much more to simply ground pin3 via a resistor with the same value as the input impedance of the amp. This would load both signal legs of the sending device equally.

IMO it's best to use the RCA ins on SE amps along with an XLR > RCA cable with the resistor inside the XLR plug. This makes the cable matched to the amp, but the resistor can be changed easily, or the XLR can be removed and an RCA plug installed if you do the right thing and get rid of your balanced components.

I have precisely such an XLR > RCA cable from you, going from balanced DAC into preamp. Works beautifully, thank you!

I have heard a number of times that RCA tends to work better for tube amps. The designer of my Octave tube preamp/power amp combo specifically stated to me that RCA is the preferred connection between preamp and power amp.

 

[microstrip]

Thats why David has set up all of my cartridges...especially the Vdh which really sings once the VTA is correct. How many cards did you use. IIRC ddk used 38. What I found very interesting with David and VTA is that whenever I thought it was spot on David would always say let's be certain by going one more card as well as taking away one more card and several times that one card made such a difference in dynamics

It would be great if you could quantify the angle of the tonearm tube. Cards is a nice tool, but an useless not portable unit. IMHO what is relevant for most users of the VdH is how far from perfect horizontal is the cartridge base.

Do people change this angle for different samples of the same cartridge model?

 

[ddk]

It would be great if you could quantify the angle of the tonearm tube. Cards is a nice tool, but an useless not portable unit. IMHO what is relevant for most users of the VdH is how far from perfect horizontal is the cartridge base.

Do people change this angle for different samples of the same cartridge model?

I wish there was one but there are no standard settings Francisco. All cartridges including vdHs vary from sample to sample, the nature of handmade products. Other factors like armboard and platter heights, headshell thickness or how tightly the SME is screwed into the base play a part too. There’s nothing portable between cartridges that’s why the 92 degree set and forget Fremer and others advocate for is nonsense.

david

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I wish there was one but there are no standard settings Francisco. All cartridges including vdHs vary from sample to sample, the nature of handmade products. Other factors like armboard and platter heights, headshell thickness or how tightly the SME is screwed into the base play a part too. There’s nothing portable between cartridges that’s why the 92 degree set and forget Fremer and others advocate for is nonsense.

david

Totally agree 100%

 

[microstrip]

I wish there was one but there are no standard settings Francisco. All cartridges including vdHs vary from sample to sample, the nature of handmade products. Other factors like armboard and platter heights, headshell thickness or how tightly the SME is screwed into the base play a part too. There’s nothing portable between cartridges that’s why the 92 degree set and forget Fremer and others advocate for is nonsense.

david

It is why I wanted to separate the variables due to tonearm and turntable from the cartridge it self.

To avoid any confusion or misunderstanding - are you saying that if you have two VdH Stradivarius samples mounted in SME standard S2R headshells we must change the tonearm height when we change the cartridge?

BTW, the 92 degree SRA rule takes in account the variation from sample to sample of handmade products - we must change the set up for each cartridge. It is one of reasons why I appreciate the very accurate VTA scale of my tonearm.

 

[ddk]

It is why I wanted to separate the variables due to tonearm and turntable from the cartridge it self.

To avoid any confusion or misunderstanding - are you saying that if you have two VdH Stradivarius samples mounted in SME standard S2R headshells we must change the tonearm height when we change the cartridge?

Yes, the same is true for any other cartridge brand I used.

BTW, the 92 degree SRA rule takes in account the variation from sample to sample of handmade products

How and what does it take into account? What realistic and accessible means of measurement?

- we must change the set up for each cartridge. It is one of reasons why I appreciate the very accurate VTA scale of my tonearm.

Good but not the only means of accurate measurement.

david