Natural Sound

[Kingsrule]

I recorded this song on my old system about a year ago after a few months of experiments. I revisited the song with my new system. Here is the result: Holst, This is What I have Done for My True Love.

So I just have to ask...with all the sound wave coming out from the room corners, why are your tube amps place right in the way of of the pressure area? Aren't the filiments getting rattled like crazy? Ever try the amps in a more "silent" location? It's audio 101, no?

 

[PeterA]

So I just have to ask...with all the sound wave coming out from the room corners, why are your tube amps place right in the way of of the pressure area? Aren't the filiments getting rattled like crazy? Ever try the amps in a more "silent" location? It's audio 101, no?

Hello Kingsule, thank you for asking as I have given this some thought. The filaments do not seem to be rattling like crazy, though I know this location is not ideal. I think the back loaded corner horns behave, or pressurize, the room very differently than do large sealed cone woofers. The bass also sounds quite different as a result. I do not think I would have placed these tube amps right in front of the woofers in my Magico Q3s for instance, nor in front of Ian's M Pros.

As they are placed now, the tubes themselves are 3' out in front of the front wall, and 1' out from the side of the fireplace wall. Right along the front wall where the pressure is, would likely be worse. The massive transformers also likely offer some buffer for the tubes.

Alternative locations are next to the rack on left and where one chair is on the right side. The problem with that is that they would be closer to the side walls which in the case of corner horns is where the low frequency pressure is. One point worth noting is that the 15" single back loaded paper horn starts at 500 hz so everything above that is from the compression driver/horn at the top of the cabinet, far above the tubes on the floor. Think of the front and side walls as extensions of the LF horn. The real issue is the location of the fireplace making it rather difficult to find a good place for the amplifiers.

Another possible location is in front of the fireplace away from the speakers, but then I would have the two IC cables, two speaker cables and two power cords to contend with and I would be blocking the fireplace. What to do in the winter when we light the fire? I could also put one right in front of each speaker in the "dead zone" by the lovely walnut face, but I think that would look kind of weird and it would take up a bunch of space.

The room is what it is and space is kind of tight. I have thought about putting them in the basement, but it is low and quite damp. Where would you suggest I locate each amp?

 

[PeterA]

Hey Peter. I may have missed this on your 1000 pages
.
What did u find the differences between the SME V and 3012R?

Interested to know

Hi XV-1, Yes, things get lost and that is one of the issues with long system threads. I wrote about the comparison in my Sublime Sound thread but more specifically here in a new thread devoted to the direct comparison. It includes some comparison videos on page 5:

Tonearm Comparison: SME 3012R and SME V-12

So it looks like I am the only one who picked Video A over B, and A is the 3012R arm that a lot of people like so much and own. So how come those 3012R owners did not pick that combination? This only tells me that the test is just plain invalid - nothing new from this vantage point. I called...

www.whatsbestforum.com

In summary, the SME V-12 is more damped. This creates a higher contrast sound, bolder and starker, and with a blacker background, but it lacks nuance and resolution as a result. Biggest difference is in the bass quality. I can see some people preferring either one over the other.

I will add that the 12" SME V-12 sounds quite different from the 9" SME V.

 

[PeterA]

That is very good. I kept expecting the high soprano to peak out, excellent balance.

While I can't say this is a type of music that I regularly listen to, the presentation is fantastic and the vocal range is perfect. The system is very dialed in. Congrats Peter, only one thing left to do.....buy more records.

Thanks guys. There are some substantial differences between my old and new system, one being the way high frequencies sound. They are more in balance with the rest of the spectrum in the new system, less peaky and less distorted. I do not find them deemphasized or less extended, just better balanced and natural sounding, but some listeners find them a bit recessed.

I agree with the more records Jeff. I'll start looking into that as the weather cools off. I'm looking forward to that, but also just to listening to my many LPs that I have not heard before. So many, so little time.

 

[Kingsrule]

Hello Kingsule, thank you for asking as I have given this some thought. The filaments do not seem to be rattling like crazy, though I know this location is not ideal. I think the back loaded corner horns behave, or pressurize, the room very differently than do large sealed cone woofers. The bass also sounds quite different as a result. I do not think I would have placed these tube amps right in front of the woofers in my Magico Q3s for instance, nor in front of Ian's M Pros.

As they are placed now, the tubes themselves are 3' out in front of the front wall, and 1' out from the side of the fireplace wall. Right along the front wall where the pressure is, would likely be worse. The massive transformers also likely offer some buffer for the tubes.

Alternative locations are next to the rack on left and where one chair is on the right side. The problem with that is that they would be closer to the side walls which in the case of corner horns is where the low frequency pressure is. One point worth noting is that the 15" single back loaded paper horn starts at 500 hz so everything above that is from the compression driver/horn at the top of the cabinet, far above the tubes on the floor. Think of the front and side walls as extensions of the LF horn. The real issue is the location of the fireplace making it rather difficult to find a good place for the amplifiers.

Another possible location is in front of the fireplace away from the speakers, but then I would have the two IC cables, two speaker cables and two power cords to contend with and I would be blocking the fireplace. What to do in the winter when we light the fire? I could also put one right in front of each speaker in the "dead zone" by the lovely walnut face, but I think that would look kind of weird and it would take up a bunch of space.

The room is what it is and space is kind of tight. I have thought about putting them in the basement, but it is low and quite damp. Where would you suggest I locate each amp?

I'm a firm believer that no gear should be placed between the speakers and if possible all gear should be out of the listening room. In my experience this applies to both tube, SS and especially TT's. Everything in my system is in the basement below the speakers
It's tough call in your room but I have to believe those filaments are moving. (Never realized there was a dead zone in front of your speakers)
Can't hurt to move things around and see.....

 

[PeterA]

I'm a firm believer that no gear should be placed between the speakers and if possible all gear should be out of the listening room. In my experience this applies to both tube, SS and especially TT's. Everything in my system is in the basement below the speakers
It's tough call in your room but I have to believe those filaments are moving. (Never realized there was a dead zone in front of your speakers)
Can't hurt to move things around and see.....

Tough to have a turntable in the basement. My preamp channels also do not have a remote, so that would be difficult. By dead zone I mean the low frequencies are vented out of the sides from the corner of the room and move along the walls. Directly in front of the lower part of the speaker is outside of this pressure zone.

I see lots of vintage photographs of horn speakers with console furniture between them with tube amplifiers on top. Though I did not ask David specifically about this, he helped me set up the amplifiers in the current locations and he did not comment on any issues. This is my first experience with tube amplifiers, and I’ve never had better sound in this room. One day I might get around to sliding the amp stands around slightly but the speaker cables are only so long.

I appreciate the advice.

 

[tima]

I'll start looking into that as the weather cools off. I'm looking forward to that,

So am I. The Listening Season starts mid- September.

 

[PeterA]

So am I. The Listening Season starts mid- September.

sailing season goes until mid October so that’s when I will start doing more listening and buying some records.

 

[PeterA]

My friend Al M. came over the other day for another listening session, but this time it was of a different sort: the natural sound of waves, wind and sea. There were no thoughts or disagreements about mini monitors and digital sources versus SETs/horns and vinyl, no discussion of room treatments or frequency extension. We simply enjoyed the sailing sounds of nature's music.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I guess if Al was half overboard, the last things he'd be worrying about would be audio fripperies.

 

[jeff1225]

sailing season goes until mid October so that’s when I will start doing more listening and buying some records.

In California sailing season is all year long!

 

[PeterA]

In California sailing season is all year long!

Haha Jeff. California is God’s country.

Some insane individuals do indeed sail year-round here also. I’m just not one of them. What they do is called “frost biting”in the winter. Of course the weather is freezing and they better not fall into the ocean but those hearty New Englanders do enjoy themselves.

I look forward to the winter when my listening room is cooler. It seems as though we have a change of seasons both outdoors and indoors around here.

 

[jeff1225]

Haha Jeff. California is God’s country.

Some insane individuals do indeed sail year-round here also. I’m just not one of them. What they do is called “frost biting”in the winter. Of course the weather is freezing and they better not fall into the ocean but those hearty New Englanders do enjoy themselves.

I look forward to the winter when my listening room is cooler. It seems as though we have a change of seasons both outdoors and indoors around here.

I didn’t know that God liked high taxes….

 

[bonzo75]

Does Al also sail like he listens, with eyes closed?

Did he think the mast was too low and should be higher?

Did he say the water does not flow?

 

[mr-particle]

Does Al also sail like he listens, with eyes closed?

Did he think the mast was too low and should be higher?

Did he say the water does not flow?

Maybe of topic, but capable helmsmen will sail blindfolded feeling what the boat is doing and if it is well sailing along with the wind!

 

[PeterA]

Maybe of topic, but capable helmsmen will sail blindfolded feeling what the boat is doing and if it is well sailing along with the wind!

That is true. It is all about balance. Our local children’s yacht club teaches the kids how to go around the race course without touching the tiller by simply adjusting the sails.

My local waters are full of lobster pots, navigation buoys, and rocks. There are also 2000 moorings in the harbor. I always keep my eyes open.

 

[mr-particle]

That is true. It is all about balance. Our local children’s yacht club teaches the kids how to go around the race course without touching the tiller by simply adjusting the sails.

My local waters are full of lobster pots, navigation buoys, and rocks. There are also 2000 moorings in the harbor. I always keep my eyes open.

Yes, sailing and listening to music it is all a question of getting connected to it, which does mean finding your own individual balance and enjoy….

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Some people have high End systems build in to there yachts so they can sail thru some fine music.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

I have not heard the Klipschorn. I understand the important thing is to find the speakers in original untouched condition. One does not want a pair that have been modified or “improved“. They will not sound the same. I also think the Vitavox is more efficient at 105 dB. @ddk will certainly know more.

I agree.I like speakers that are original.

 

[PeterA]

I would like to say a few things about the amazing Micro Seiki SX 8000 II turntable. After the AS2000 that I heard at both Rockitman's and @ddk's, it is the finest source component I have heard. I think the NOS SME 3012R tonearm, the low output van den Hul Grand Cru cartridge, and the new rack with massive stainless steel plates with resonance control that I use as a platform, contribute to the overall presentation.

I love the ergonomics, the aesthetics, the ease of use, and the extremely high build quality. It is close to forty years old now, but it is performing beautifully in my new system. I am hearing such a natural sound, full of nuance and resolution. Images are extremely stable and I am hearing more information retrieved from the grooves than I have from any turntable aside from the AS2000.

I recently recorded two videos that show both the speed accuracy and stability using two measuring devices: the Road Runner tachometer and the Sutherland TimeLine. The tests are under dynamic conditions, that is I play an LP but I also lift and lower the cartridge into the groove and I place and remove the Timeline from the platter. The speed variation is roughly +/- 0.002 RPM or 33.331 to 33.335. This is extremely accurate and the minute fluctuation in speed is not at all audible. If anyone has ever tried to use these two measuring devices to test a turntable speed, especially under dynamic conditions, it can be a very humbling experience. I have seen the TimeLine strobe dash migrate around the room wildly. I have tested a number of different tables, and only the Direct Drive Technics SP10 mk 3 matched the performance of the Micro Seiki. I suspect the AS2000 is as good or better. I the best direct drive and idler tables perform well with these tests, but that very few belt drive tables do.

I have seen the effects of stylus drag on my old SME. It performed quite well, but I always set the speed with an LP playing music. It does not matter when I adjust the speed pots on the Micro Seiki because the dynamic force of stylus drag does not seem to affect the speed. This speed stability results in a very solid, stable sound, most importantly in presenting the lower frequencies and bass lines, but also in lessening high frequency distortion. This may also be responsible for the superb and very subtle ambient information I am hearing.

I am now beginning to fully appreciate the reputation this fine turntable has earned and of which @ddk has written.

Here are the two videos showing the dynamic speed tests:

video 1:

video 2: