Natural Sound

[microstrip]

(...) If anyone has ever tried to use these two measuring devices to test a turntable speed, especially under dynamic conditions, it can be a very humbling experience. (...)

Why carrying an experiment that has no proved correlation with subjective sound quality can be a "very humbling experience"? IMHO this is exactly the same situation as someone with a top measuring solid state amplifier telling a SET owner that his great solid state amplifier has .001%THD ...

Even Michael Fremer has written that these devices are just indicators of technical quality, not sound quality ranking.

BTW, if we care so much about dynamic changes of velocity we should always use the vacuum LP coupling - what really matters is the LP speed, not the platter.

 

[Lagonda]

I would like to say a few things about the amazing Micro Seiki SX 8000 II turntable. After the AS2000 that I heard at both Rockitman's and @ddk's, it is the finest source component I have heard. I think the NOS SME 3012R tonearm, the low output van den Hul Grand Cru cartridge, and the new rack with massive stainless steel plates with resonance control that I use as a platform, contribute to the overall presentation.

I love the ergonomics, the aesthetics, the ease of use, and the extremely high build quality. It is close to forty years old now, but it is performing beautifully in my new system. I am hearing such a natural sound, full of nuance and resolution. Images are extremely stable and I am hearing more information retrieved from the grooves than I have from any turntable aside from the AS2000.

I recently recorded two videos that show both the speed accuracy and stability using two measuring devices: the Road Runner tachometer and the Sutherland TimeLine. The tests are under dynamic conditions, that is I play an LP but I also lift and lower the cartridge into the groove and I place and remove the Timeline from the platter. The speed variation is roughly +/- 0.002 RPM or 33.331 to 33.335. This is extremely accurate and the minute fluctuation in speed is not at all audible. If anyone has ever tried to use these two measuring devices to test a turntable speed, especially under dynamic conditions, it can be a very humbling experience. I have seen the TimeLine strobe dash migrate around the room wildly. I have tested a number of different tables, and only the Direct Drive Technics SP10 mk 3 matched the performance of the Micro Seiki. I suspect the AS2000 is as good or better. I the best direct drive and idler tables perform well with these tests, but that very few belt drive tables do.

I have seen the effects of stylus drag on my old SME. It performed quite well, but I always set the speed with an LP playing music. It does not matter when I adjust the speed pots on the Micro Seiki because the dynamic force of stylus drag does not seem to affect the speed. This speed stability results in a very solid, stable sound, most importantly in presenting the lower frequencies and bass lines, but also in lessening high frequency distortion. This may also be responsible for the superb and very subtle ambient information I am hearing.

I am now beginning to fully appreciate the reputation this fine turntable has earned and of which @ddk has written.

Here are the two videos showing the dynamic speed tests:

video 1:

video 2:

What is your tracking weight Peter ?

 

[Lagonda]

Why carrying an experiment that has no proved correlation with subjective sound quality can be a "very humbling experience"? IMHO this is exactly the same situation as someone with a top measuring solid state amplifier telling a SET owner that his great solid state amplifier has .001%THD ...

Even Michael Fremer has written that these devices are just indicators of technical quality, not sound quality ranking.

BTW, if we care so much about dynamic changes of velocity we should always use the vacuum LP coupling - what really matters is the LP speed, not the platter.

Are you claiming that the speed i variating on a TT that uses a center weight, or no weight is because the record is slipping on the platter during playback, Francisco ?

 

[PeterA]

Why carrying an experiment that has no proved correlation with subjective sound quality can be a "very humbling experience"? IMHO this is exactly the same situation as someone with a top measuring solid state amplifier telling a SET owner that his great solid state amplifier has .001%THD ...

Even Michael Fremer has written that these devices are just indicators of technical quality, not sound quality ranking.

BTW, if we care so much about dynamic changes of velocity we should always use the vacuum LP coupling - what really matters is the LP speed, not the platter.

Fransisco, I am describing this turntable and its speed accuracy and stability. The effect of stylus drag is real and can be measured. It fluctuates depending on groove modulations and resulting friction. Some say it is audible. I am sharing my impressions of what I am hearing, and one of the improvements of this turntable over my other one is a both a more stable and a more accurate speed. The result is more resolution and a more natural sound.

I friend who knows my old system well, heard this table and just bought one based on what he heard. Seeing the results of these measurements can be very humbling because people assume their expensive turntables are speed accurate and stable. Many are not. I found this to be quite surprising.

Measurements for speed correlate to better sound. Measurements for distortion clearly do not. I reject your analogy. There are many factors involved in the sound of a turntable. I don't think Fremer or anyone else would rank turntable sound quality based only on speed accuracy and stability. That would be very misguided. However, technical quality matters, especially when it comes to turntable speed, as I am learning. Vacuum hold down is not the only way to couple an LP to a platter. And I don't know of any way to measure the differences between LP and platter speed, if they do indeed occur.

The Timeline is placed on the LP and should reflect the LP speed. The Roadrunner reflects the platter speed. These videos show both at the same time.

 

[PeterA]

What is your tracking weight Peter ?

1.38-1.40 grams

 

[Lagonda]

1.38-1.40 grams

Wow, that is not a lot ! Partly explains the very little effect the needle drop has on speed. Definitely great results Peter !

 

[microstrip]

Are you claiming that the speed i variating on a TT that uses a center weight, or no weight is because the record is slipping on the platter during playback, Francisco ?

Who is referring to center weights? I only addressed vacuum ...

 

[Lagonda]

Who is referring to center weights? I only addressed vacuum ...

I doubt many records slip on the platter during payback even with no center weight ! Do you own a RoadRunner Francisco ?

 

[PeterA]

Who is referring to center weights? I only addressed vacuum ...

You talked about the importance of coupling the record to the platter through your reference to vacuum hold down.

 

[microstrip]

Fransisco, I am describing this turntable and its speed accuracy and stability. The effect of stylus drag is real and can be measured. It fluctuates depending on groove modulations and resulting friction. Some say it is audible. I am sharing my impressions of what I am hearing, and one of the improvements of this turntable over my other one is a both a more stable and a more accurate speed. The result is more resolution and a more natural sound.

I friend who knows my old system well, heard this table and just bought one based on what he heard. Seeing the results of these measurements can be very humbling because people assume their expensive turntables are speed accurate and stable. Many are not. I found this to be quite surprising.

Measurements for speed correlate to better sound. Measurements for distortion clearly do not. I reject your analogy. There are many factors involved in the sound of a turntable. I don't think Fremer or anyone else would rank turntable sound quality based only on speed accuracy and stability. That would be very misguided. However, technical quality matters, especially when it comes to turntable speed, as I am learning. Vacuum hold down is not the only way to couple an LP to a platter. And I don't know of any way to measure the differences between LP and platter speed, if they do indeed occur.

The Timeline is placed on the LP and should reflect the LP speed. The Roadrunner reflects the platter speed. These videos show both at the same time.

Are you really saying that "Measurements for speed correlate to better sound" referring to measurements carried with the two tools you refer? That turntables that show less difference are better sounding?

I believe that you have an excellent top turntable, but not because of the indications of the gadgets your refer. Just MHO, YMMV.

 

[microstrip]

I doubt many records slip on the platter during payback even with no center weight ! Do you own a RoadRunner Francisco ?

Are you expecting to see slip in a turntable during playback with a RoadRunner?

 

[microstrip]

You talked about the importance of coupling the record to the platter through your reference to vacuum hold down.

Yes. I learned about it reading interviews and articles from Hideaki Nishikawa , the Micro Seiki and TechDas designer.

The most complete article I have ever seen on turntable speed was the GrandPrixAudio white paper - it explained the problems and limitations of classical measuring methods. Although I was not able to locate it now in their site, Michael Fremer addresses it in his Monaco turntable review.

 

[Lagonda]

Are you expecting to see slip in a turntable during playback with a RoadRunner?

Not really, but you would have a better sense of what affects speed changes in general ! Peters timeline should give you a pretty good idea though Your theoretical knowledge is surpassing your practical again Francisco !

 

[rando]

Forget gadgets, Peter.

Buy more LP's and time in that room!

 

[microstrip]

Not really, but you would have a better sense of what affects speed changes in general ! Peters timeline should give you a pretty good idea though Your theoretical knowledge is surpassing your practical again Francisco !

Well, what I know about this particular subject comes mostly from what I read coming from the turntable designers, call it the way you want. I am humble enough to know that my turntable practice is mostly influenced by my preferences and the few pieces of equipment I had the privilege of owning along decades. All else was for the fun of the hobby.

Anyway I prefer the way I do to that of those whose practice surpasses theoretical just because their theoretical is almost non existent. I only say electronics is just Ohm's law and common sense for fun, although some people seem to believe it ...

 

[Lagonda]

Well, what I know about this particular subject comes mostly from what I read coming from the turntable designers, call it the way you want. I am humble enough to know that my turntable practice is mostly influenced by my preferences and the few pieces of equipment I had the privilege of owning along decades. All else was for the fun of the hobby.

Anyway I prefer the way I do to that of those whose practice surpasses theoretical just because their theoretical is almost non existent. I only say electronics is just Ohm's law and common sense for fun, although some people seem to believe it ...

Theoretical knowledge is wonderful Francisco, but sometimes getting your hands dirty, coupled with a lot of listening, is not bad either. You do not need a professorship, the combined works of F.Toole, Geddes, Albert Einstein and unlimited resources to get halfway decent vinyl sound !

 

[PeterA]

Are you really saying that "Measurements for speed correlate to better sound" referring to measurements carried with the two tools you refer? That turntables that show less difference are better sounding?

I believe that you have an excellent top turntable, but not because of the indications of the gadgets your refer. Just MHO, YMMV.

I’m saying that speed accuracy and stability matter for turn table performance. They’re obviously not the only things that matter.

And accurate and stable speed does not guarantee good sound from a turntable. Are you suggesting they don’t matter for sound quality?

 

[microstrip]

Theoretical knowledge is wonderful Francisco, but sometimes getting your hands dirty, coupled with a lot of listening, is not bad either.

Surely, but IMHO we should use proper tools, not gadgets, to bias our listening.

You do not need a professorship, the combined works of F.Toole and unlimited resources to get halfway decent vinyl sound !

Who said so? But I do not consider Peter's turntable just able "to get halfway decent vinyl sound " and this is his system thread, we discuss around his system and his posts - it is why I found that the vacuum subject was very appropriate.

 

[PeterA]

Forget gadgets, Peter.

Buy more LP's and time in that room!

I used the gadgets to set the speed. It’s a non stretch belt and tension matters to the sound so adjusting tension changes the speed. They both matter for sound quality so I need the tools and I listen. Just thought I would share the results if anyone was interested.

I inherited 1000 LPs recently and will clean, sort, and listen to them this winter when I have more time for audio.

 

[microstrip]

I’m saying that speed accuracy and stability matter for turn table performance. They’re obviously not the only things that matter.

And accurate and stable speed does not guarantee good sound from a turntable. Are you suggesting they don’t matter for sound quality?

No, I repeat what I have written before - accuracy does not matter as long as the speed is kept in a reasonable interval - say .1% not 1 or 2 ppm, and stability (precision) must be checked by the proper ways, not just naively looking to the effect of dragging when we lower the stylus.