While the Hartsfields are officially corner horns, they have a sealed back and don't totally required a sealed connection to the corner like Peter's speakers
Peter's speakers image way more in front than the Hartsfields do, its a different sound.
Natural Sound
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Peter's speakers image way more in front than the Hartsfields do, its a different sound.
I agree. I wonder what is better in the room.
@Al M. I know you were heading to Peter's for dinner and listening, what cartridge did you like better?
Jeff, we only compared briefly on one piece, and I didn't hear so much difference this time.
If it does not go too far out of the way on Peter's thread, would you please say more on the differences between Hartsfields and Vitavox. Tia. Otherwise, maybe somewhere else.
I'll do it on my own thread. The caveat is that Peter owns the Lamm L1 and the mighty Micro Seiki 8000 Mk2. I can only imagine what the Hartsfields would sound with the Micro.
Listening to Beethoven's Middle Quartets in our 1790s living room on the new lifestyle system while making S'mores in the fireplace after dinner before the big New England blizzard. The room is just more people friendly now and not so much a dedicated audiophile space. For such a small space, it really opens up with the speakers in the corners and no more acoustic treatments on the walls.
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I have been asked by a couple of people to describe more clearly the sonic changes as I transitioned from my old system to my new system. I was looking through some old videos and found three all playing the same music in three different system configurations:
1. SME/Pass/Magico
2. Micro Seiki/Lamm M1.1/Magico
2. Micro Seiki/Lamm ML2/Vitavox
I discussed this a bit earlier in this thread but decided to expand a bit to directly respond to their questions and to include the videos to illustrate the differences. I suspect that some will prefer an earlier iteration of the system and wonder why I changed anything. I do think the three videos make an interesting comparison. Here is what I wrote them privately with the attached videos:
********************
The most dramatic shift for me was definitely from the Pass gear to Lamm gear using the Magico Q3 speakers. I chose those Q3s carefully, because I thought they were pretty neutral, based on my known references and compared to other speakers I had heard like Rockports, Wilsons, Veritas, Martin Logans, and other Magicos. This proved to be the case, especially throughout my 18 months of experimenting with David's prompts. Once I got them and the room properly set up, I did get to a level of natural sound from that old Pass/Magico system. At the end of it all, those speakers really allowed me to hear the difference between Pass and Lamm, starting with the LP2.1.
Those speakers and the rest of the system, also allowed me to hear the difference between the Lamm M1.1 and the ML2. The ML2 was not allowed to shine because the Q3s are so inefficient, but I could hear, within the limitations, something special from the SET that the hybrid amp did not quite have. It was a magic and beauty that drew me in to the music. For this, given the constraints, I used solo strings and voice, mostly.
This is where the Vitavox come in. After hearing the ML2 in the system, I strongly suspected that the much more efficient Vitavox corner horns would allow me to more fully grasp the nature of the rest of the system, and specifically the ML2. That is why the change in speakers is more interesting to me. The electronics change was dramatic and obvious, from a kind of pleasant, colored hifi, to a dynamic, open, live sound that brought me right in front of jazz band. The speaker change took me from that broad strokes and liveliness to a much more refined, nuanced, understanding of the music and what Natural Sound is all about. And my appreciation and learning continues today.
The ML2's full potential was made possible by the purchase of the Vitavox. I got a hint of it from the Magico Q3, but it was severely limited. The M1.1/Magico was better, a lot better for overall enjoyment, and frankly, I could have stopped there and been very happy. But once I heard the ML2 in my room, and was reminded about the magic I heard in Utah, I had to go further with the Vitavox to complete it.
Another way to look at it is this: I heard instantly how much better the whole Lamm with M1.1 was than the Pass. It was sudden and obvious to me and to my two musician friends who heard the comparison around this same time. I got hints of what more was possible with the ML2, and am still learning the full picture with the ML2 and Vitavox. The layers of information and beauty, and naturalness of the presentation is still unfolding in my room. Without being able to go to live concerts, it is likely slower than it would be. I am left to rely on my memory. It is more subtle, less obvious than was the electronics change, but ultimately, the reward seems to be greater and deeper.
Broad stroke differences between say Black Sabbath and Bach are pretty clear and immediate. This is what the electronics change was like. Now I am learning to better appreciate the differences between Bach's individual suites for solo cello, or how his partitas and sonatas compare. It is about, nuance, beauty and meaning in the music, not just the sound, though sound is important.
If you are interested, watch these three videos: Pass/Magico, Lamm/Magico, Lamm/Vitavox all playing Scheherazade to see if this description makes sense to you.
Peter
1. SME/Pass/Magico
2. Micro Seiki/Lamm M1.1/Magico
2. Micro Seiki/Lamm ML2/Vitavox
I discussed this a bit earlier in this thread but decided to expand a bit to directly respond to their questions and to include the videos to illustrate the differences. I suspect that some will prefer an earlier iteration of the system and wonder why I changed anything. I do think the three videos make an interesting comparison. Here is what I wrote them privately with the attached videos:
********************
The most dramatic shift for me was definitely from the Pass gear to Lamm gear using the Magico Q3 speakers. I chose those Q3s carefully, because I thought they were pretty neutral, based on my known references and compared to other speakers I had heard like Rockports, Wilsons, Veritas, Martin Logans, and other Magicos. This proved to be the case, especially throughout my 18 months of experimenting with David's prompts. Once I got them and the room properly set up, I did get to a level of natural sound from that old Pass/Magico system. At the end of it all, those speakers really allowed me to hear the difference between Pass and Lamm, starting with the LP2.1.
Those speakers and the rest of the system, also allowed me to hear the difference between the Lamm M1.1 and the ML2. The ML2 was not allowed to shine because the Q3s are so inefficient, but I could hear, within the limitations, something special from the SET that the hybrid amp did not quite have. It was a magic and beauty that drew me in to the music. For this, given the constraints, I used solo strings and voice, mostly.
This is where the Vitavox come in. After hearing the ML2 in the system, I strongly suspected that the much more efficient Vitavox corner horns would allow me to more fully grasp the nature of the rest of the system, and specifically the ML2. That is why the change in speakers is more interesting to me. The electronics change was dramatic and obvious, from a kind of pleasant, colored hifi, to a dynamic, open, live sound that brought me right in front of jazz band. The speaker change took me from that broad strokes and liveliness to a much more refined, nuanced, understanding of the music and what Natural Sound is all about. And my appreciation and learning continues today.
The ML2's full potential was made possible by the purchase of the Vitavox. I got a hint of it from the Magico Q3, but it was severely limited. The M1.1/Magico was better, a lot better for overall enjoyment, and frankly, I could have stopped there and been very happy. But once I heard the ML2 in my room, and was reminded about the magic I heard in Utah, I had to go further with the Vitavox to complete it.
Another way to look at it is this: I heard instantly how much better the whole Lamm with M1.1 was than the Pass. It was sudden and obvious to me and to my two musician friends who heard the comparison around this same time. I got hints of what more was possible with the ML2, and am still learning the full picture with the ML2 and Vitavox. The layers of information and beauty, and naturalness of the presentation is still unfolding in my room. Without being able to go to live concerts, it is likely slower than it would be. I am left to rely on my memory. It is more subtle, less obvious than was the electronics change, but ultimately, the reward seems to be greater and deeper.
Broad stroke differences between say Black Sabbath and Bach are pretty clear and immediate. This is what the electronics change was like. Now I am learning to better appreciate the differences between Bach's individual suites for solo cello, or how his partitas and sonatas compare. It is about, nuance, beauty and meaning in the music, not just the sound, though sound is important.
If you are interested, watch these three videos: Pass/Magico, Lamm/Magico, Lamm/Vitavox all playing Scheherazade to see if this description makes sense to you.
Peter
I was one who asked Peter about his thoughts regarding which upgrade step was more dramatic or enlightening. Peter, I appreciate your taking the time to offer these three videos so we can hear what is behind your written account. I listened to the three Scheherazade videos and yes, good, better, best.
Owning the M1.2 Refs myself, the Pass -> Lamm M1.1 upgrade is like coming home to me. The differences are rather obvious, the Pass being somewhat veiled and loose around the edges while the M1.1 brought authority with nuance and transparency, somewhat better frequency balance and more natural sounding instruments, I heard from the harp, flute, solo violin and french horns. Given the positive improvements I hear it surprises me that the Magico+Lamm combination is not more prevalent among Magico owners. Did the Lamm+Magico video include the Lamm LP2.1 and LL1.1 units? The Micro-Sekei turntable, if also a part of that sound, makes its own affirmative contributions.
Magico->Vitavox - I continue to be taken with the sound of the corner speakers as I've heard in your other videos. Right from the outset a more believable sound is obvious, very much closer to a real orchestra in a hall; the sense of venue context and energy come through immediately. I suspect it is the more natural and properly weighted bass coupled with better integration with your room that leads me to that, but whatever, it is obvious and wonderful. Love the timpani. Clarity, timbre, bass articulation, and again, nuance. The ML2 brings a kind of interior light with beauty and strength. I can only imagine the in-room experience.
Thanks again for making and sharing these.
Owning the M1.2 Refs myself, the Pass -> Lamm M1.1 upgrade is like coming home to me. The differences are rather obvious, the Pass being somewhat veiled and loose around the edges while the M1.1 brought authority with nuance and transparency, somewhat better frequency balance and more natural sounding instruments, I heard from the harp, flute, solo violin and french horns. Given the positive improvements I hear it surprises me that the Magico+Lamm combination is not more prevalent among Magico owners. Did the Lamm+Magico video include the Lamm LP2.1 and LL1.1 units? The Micro-Sekei turntable, if also a part of that sound, makes its own affirmative contributions.
Magico->Vitavox - I continue to be taken with the sound of the corner speakers as I've heard in your other videos. Right from the outset a more believable sound is obvious, very much closer to a real orchestra in a hall; the sense of venue context and energy come through immediately. I suspect it is the more natural and properly weighted bass coupled with better integration with your room that leads me to that, but whatever, it is obvious and wonderful. Love the timpani. Clarity, timbre, bass articulation, and again, nuance. The ML2 brings a kind of interior light with beauty and strength. I can only imagine the in-room experience.
Thanks again for making and sharing these.
You are most welcome, Tim. I find being able to go back to these three videos is very interesting now, and these months later, and it gives some insight into the changes. Yes, that middle video was the complete Lamm chain of electronics plus the SX 8000 II into the Magicos, though it is without the new rack. This was a wonderful sounding combination, but it did not have the resolution, the ease, or the magic of the ML2 and Vitavox.
I like your expression of a "more believable sound...of a real orchestra in a hall." That is a great benchmark, and a real challenge in a home setting. This brings me just a bit closer.
I concur with Peter‘S observations
I have been away from the forum for over a year more or less and was introduced to Peter‘S room changes when I stumbled on this thread a few short days ago
I queried what had happened and he allowed me to review all his videos in the transitions he has explained already
without being aware of his internal views I reviewed his videos several times
I was initially quite struck by the improvements with the M1.1 over the pass with the Q3, I put this down to the challenges in the bass the q3 give the Pass over the lamm which can shift with lower impedance speakers some thing the pass cannot
to be honest at this stage I noted a considerable improvement and also great natural timbre especially with acoustic instruments
with the change in both LAMM ml2 and Cn 191 Vitavox initially I had mixed views
I kept listening and I can now agree there is a most notable improvement especially in image and timbral density /natural presentation
as a mere video observer I cannot speculate on the many changes which have caused this improvement
although I can also hear some compromises which seem in my view room related not equipment
the overall sonic improvement is very significant in my personal view based on the videos
Great job Peter and DDK
I have been away from the forum for over a year more or less and was introduced to Peter‘S room changes when I stumbled on this thread a few short days ago
I queried what had happened and he allowed me to review all his videos in the transitions he has explained already
without being aware of his internal views I reviewed his videos several times
I was initially quite struck by the improvements with the M1.1 over the pass with the Q3, I put this down to the challenges in the bass the q3 give the Pass over the lamm which can shift with lower impedance speakers some thing the pass cannot
to be honest at this stage I noted a considerable improvement and also great natural timbre especially with acoustic instruments
with the change in both LAMM ml2 and Cn 191 Vitavox initially I had mixed views
I kept listening and I can now agree there is a most notable improvement especially in image and timbral density /natural presentation
as a mere video observer I cannot speculate on the many changes which have caused this improvement
although I can also hear some compromises which seem in my view room related not equipment
the overall sonic improvement is very significant in my personal view based on the videos
Great job Peter and DDK
Wow Peter, I think changing to the Vitavox speakers made as much if not more of a difference than your changing Pass Labs for Lamm, but that was a great change as well. My Altec A7's don't go as deep as your Vitavox speakers do, but are quite similar in their presentation of the midrange, in a non-audiophile "vintage" way. Your system sounds great to me. I would be happy the rest of my life with it.
Thank you for sharing your observations, Andrew. The final result is surely the combination of gear that David assembled. Everything plays a role, from the power to the cartridge and speakers in the room. In the end, the Lamm ML2/Vitavox is simply a more nuanced, balanced and natural presentation to me, and it is one I continue to learn from and appreciate. The room could certainly be better, but I accept the compromise for what it is. Perhaps someday, we will be lucky to live in a house with a better option.
Thank you Rensselaer. I have been watching your videos of the Altec also. I really enjoy them and your music selections. The Vitavox speakers do benefit from that corner reinforcement essentially loading the whole room. It extends the bass. It is a very interesting interaction compared to the way the same speakers sounded away from the corners in David's smaller room. Other factors contribute to the bass quality as well: the table/arm/cartridge combination, and the electronics all play a role.
I am enjoying what seems like more discussion about horn speakers on the forum and the sharing of the systems through videos. Different perspectives and different tastes add richness and variety to the general forum threads. Horns are rare on WBF, corner horns even more so. @jeffrey_t has his new JBL Hartsfield corner horns as well.
I am no expert, but to me I think the attribution is misdirected to horns in general, and should instead be directed to vintage technologies (SET’s, high-efficiency paper cone speakers with cloth surrounds, field-coil speakers).
Yes I think it can be expanded to that as well. There seems to be increased discussion of those subjects also on WBF.
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