But if you just pulled the speakers out into the room more Peter…
Natural Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
- Start date
Not surprisingly, the tachometer to three places after the decimal is unaffected by the lowering of the stylus onto the record, despite the fairly loose thread connection to the motor. I had to adjust the speed on my SME when the needle was on the LP because it would change when the two came into contact. The inertia of this platter overcomes the stylus friction and I suspect contributes to the solidity and clarity of the presentation.
The other big thing is the suspension of the platter by air. There is zero sound transmitted to the platter and up to the stylus when I tap my knuckles on the turntable base or steel plate platforms. This was not the case with my SME or Micro Seiki; sound was transmitted. This contributes to the extreme lack of noise going through the system and allows me to hear deep into the music. Nuance and hall ambiance are superb.
I think the lack of noise getting to the platter from both the motor via the thread, and up from the rack through to the turntable base plus the unwavering platter speed are responsible for the very natural timbre that I hear, and the overall sense of ease and flow. In other words, there is very little sound from the turntable getting to the stylus, so the information retrieved from the grooves survives uncorrupted.
The other big thing is the suspension of the platter by air. There is zero sound transmitted to the platter and up to the stylus when I tap my knuckles on the turntable base or steel plate platforms. This was not the case with my SME or Micro Seiki; sound was transmitted. This contributes to the extreme lack of noise going through the system and allows me to hear deep into the music. Nuance and hall ambiance are superb.
I think the lack of noise getting to the platter from both the motor via the thread, and up from the rack through to the turntable base plus the unwavering platter speed are responsible for the very natural timbre that I hear, and the overall sense of ease and flow. In other words, there is very little sound from the turntable getting to the stylus, so the information retrieved from the grooves survives uncorrupted.
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Interesting. We noticed the same thing on a friend’s SME when using an AllNic speednic. My Yamaha GT-2000 has no such issue and is also impervious to needle drag.
Is that an Ayon Crossfire MkI or Mkii? Also what is the Ypsilon? Phono or DSC? The Phasemation is a phonostage, right?
I answer this with trepidation, as ddk pointed out it could derail Peters thread (which I do not want to do), so briefly the MC cartridge and both SUT's are Phasemation, the Ypsilon is the VPS100 phono stage, the integrated amplifier I only know as a Spitfire, unaware of MkI or MkII. Now could someone tell me how to take this off of Peter's thread and set it up as a separate thread?
Make sure that you retain all you need to re create your post , delete your post here then go to whatever sub forum you think most appropriate and click on the post thread button to start the conversation … then re post
Edit your post. Click the last 3 dot bar on the right in the edit menu. Click the [ ] brackets. This turns your entire post into text which you can copy or cut. Start the new thread and paste your copied text into the new thread message box.
IMO putting up your own recording of something Peter posted is not really so off topic…especially after 177 pages of meandering discussion…
Brad, it is not the video. Mark is soliciting advice about how to improve his system. I’ve had some private messages with Mark and I’d rather just have a discussion about his system and his set up choices and cables and power cords and amp in its own dedicated thread or off-line. Respectfully, my system thread is not the place to discuss how to improve someone else’s system.
Sorry that you have no interest in reading about three great turntables. Luckily there are many other threads that might interest you on the forum.
It seems that more than DDK’s sound preferences has rubbed off on you Peter…very disappointing…
Again, so what? A guy is asking you how to get natural sound (or at least this thread’s definition) and you respond with snobbish “not on my thread!” After 177 pages of dead horse beating? Yes, you got a nice new toy and maybe it’s the best…or maybe not but a guy comes openly to ask for input and you guys snub him publicly…uncool IMO.
It seems that more than DDK’s sound preferences has rubbed off on you Peter…very disappointing…
Aside from it not being right to introduce other systems on someone else's system thread he'd be better served in a separate thread when exchanges here have become personal, your posts are clear examples of it!
david
People often suggest listening to one's system from outside the listening room, down the hallway or up the stairs. Eighteen months ago, I stood roughly in the middle of David's stairway in Utah leading down to his listening room in one direction and up to his living room in the other. Then, his daughter was playing her cello in her own quartet while David's system was playing Beethoven's Late Quartets. I remember at the time marveling at how similar the two actually sounded. This afternoon I began to understand why.
As I was getting ready to go out to dinner, I turned up the volume so that I could hear the music from my bedroom upstairs. As I was dressing, I noticed that the music sounded much more realistic outside the room than I remember. As I walked down the stairs closer to the door which was only half way open, I noticed three things: the timbre was more natural with this turntable, but more importantly, the dynamics and the sense of mass were much improved.
I was playing Art Pepper Plus Eleven. This is big band at its finest. From the stairs, the instruments were instantly recognizable for what they were, but what I really noticed was the dynamics and mass of the sound. The horns came through very clearly and were explosive, if a bit muted through the door and walls. Also, there was a sense of mass to the instruments that I never noticed from outside the room before. The low frequencies travelled and filled the stairway. The sax had a low growl and impact, the trumpets were piercing yet brassy and not bright. The clarinet had a gorgeous wood and reedy tone. The instruments played together and filled the space, yet there was a surprising clarity to each one individually as it came forward in the mix. The dynamics and mass gave the instruments a believable presence around the corner that was absent from the Micro Seiki. The tone was pretty similar though.
It was not just the beauty of the tone, but the pressure of the energy and the shear solidity of the instruments escaping the room that made the recorded music sound believable. And the dynamics jumped, even from the distance. These two characteristics are the key to the sense of realism and aliveness, it seems. This was exactly what I heard standing on David's stairway while comparing the sound of his daughter's real cello to the presentation through the Bionors. I just did not understand it fully at the time.
David told me that I would continue to learn as I lived with and got to know the system. He was right.
This evening after dinner I played Beethoven’s violin Concerto with Grumiaux, the same LP I listened to with Tima in Utah on our recnt trip together to visit David. Tonight was the first time hearing it on the new turntable. I remember some of the comments Tim made when listening to it. Tim told me that he had never heard Grumiaux play like that. The Micro Seiki, as excellent as it is, simply did not dig deep enough into the music to reveal as much about the beautiful and nuanced sound of Grumiaux's instrument. On the AS2000, the violin is more expressive, far more emotional and moving. Tim was swept away then, as I was here tonight.
There is also this: much more mass to all the instruments, regardless of volume. The foundation is more solid offering a greater contrast to the lighter and higher soaring violin. At the ending crescendo, there is this finality and resolve from the orchestra that overwhelmed the room with energy. People talk about tonal density. I hear a wash of energy filling the room emanating from every instrument on the stage. This is true natural resolution. I thought I understood that but now after actually hearing it in my room, I get it. This table is starting to reveal the system's capabilities. Music is coming alive in the room. The information has always been right there in the grooves, I am now just hearing more of it.
As I was getting ready to go out to dinner, I turned up the volume so that I could hear the music from my bedroom upstairs. As I was dressing, I noticed that the music sounded much more realistic outside the room than I remember. As I walked down the stairs closer to the door which was only half way open, I noticed three things: the timbre was more natural with this turntable, but more importantly, the dynamics and the sense of mass were much improved.
I was playing Art Pepper Plus Eleven. This is big band at its finest. From the stairs, the instruments were instantly recognizable for what they were, but what I really noticed was the dynamics and mass of the sound. The horns came through very clearly and were explosive, if a bit muted through the door and walls. Also, there was a sense of mass to the instruments that I never noticed from outside the room before. The low frequencies travelled and filled the stairway. The sax had a low growl and impact, the trumpets were piercing yet brassy and not bright. The clarinet had a gorgeous wood and reedy tone. The instruments played together and filled the space, yet there was a surprising clarity to each one individually as it came forward in the mix. The dynamics and mass gave the instruments a believable presence around the corner that was absent from the Micro Seiki. The tone was pretty similar though.
It was not just the beauty of the tone, but the pressure of the energy and the shear solidity of the instruments escaping the room that made the recorded music sound believable. And the dynamics jumped, even from the distance. These two characteristics are the key to the sense of realism and aliveness, it seems. This was exactly what I heard standing on David's stairway while comparing the sound of his daughter's real cello to the presentation through the Bionors. I just did not understand it fully at the time.
David told me that I would continue to learn as I lived with and got to know the system. He was right.
This evening after dinner I played Beethoven’s violin Concerto with Grumiaux, the same LP I listened to with Tima in Utah on our recnt trip together to visit David. Tonight was the first time hearing it on the new turntable. I remember some of the comments Tim made when listening to it. Tim told me that he had never heard Grumiaux play like that. The Micro Seiki, as excellent as it is, simply did not dig deep enough into the music to reveal as much about the beautiful and nuanced sound of Grumiaux's instrument. On the AS2000, the violin is more expressive, far more emotional and moving. Tim was swept away then, as I was here tonight.
There is also this: much more mass to all the instruments, regardless of volume. The foundation is more solid offering a greater contrast to the lighter and higher soaring violin. At the ending crescendo, there is this finality and resolve from the orchestra that overwhelmed the room with energy. People talk about tonal density. I hear a wash of energy filling the room emanating from every instrument on the stage. This is true natural resolution. I thought I understood that but now after actually hearing it in my room, I get it. This table is starting to reveal the system's capabilities. Music is coming alive in the room. The information has always been right there in the grooves, I am now just hearing more of it.
Your post was excellent. Wonderful writing. It led me to go back to your thread where we posted about our visit to Utah and I re-read our accounts of that visit. It kinda all came rushing back.
The Grumiaux Beethoven 1st VC is a wonderful recording. With your AS2000 and the rest of your new system you must come close to what we heard together. I like your description of more mass - your and David's system make its meaning obvious, whereas on lesser systems I might struggle to grasp it. With resolution, energy and mass I understand what you say about the finale. Beethoven always liked to give his audience a big finish. The sound of an orchestra in a hall with a soloist compels us to do what we do.
Orchestras in Beethoven's day were smaller - it was hard for him to round up enough competent musicians to put on a concert. It is his only violin concerto. He was 35 and could still mostly hear. The debut performance of it did not go all that well and B heard it but that one time in his life. To experience that piece with a musician such as Grumiaux and a full major orchestra such the Concertgebouw unlocks the timeless genius that is Beethoven. Don't you wish he could hear that performance. And you get to have the experience in your living room ... or upstairs! Now I will have to play it this evening, either with Oistrakh or Heifetz.
If I recall correctly we heard that record on the JBL M9500s with the ML2s and on the Bionars. A singular audio experience for me.
Thank you David. Listening to this system conjures up memories from my trips to Utah. I think about the experience of listening live, the pictures that Beethoven composed, Grumiaux's interpretation, the orchestra's supporting role. The music is simply there to hear all around me and to experience it. My mind is free to wander and go where it will. I do not hear the components or think about the system unless consciously trying to understand something. I place the LP on the platter, put down the weight, slide over the arm, and lower the lever. The music and my mind relaxes and opens up to what is about to come.
I never thought about this before, but I was always more aware of the system before. Now, the listening experience is more of an escape, an immersion. It is actually quite similar to watching a movie. Very quickly, I forget where I am and don't even see the television or the room in which I am sitting. I don't even think of the other people in the room. My mind is somewhere new. I simply lose myself in another world and the music takes over. It is just like when I was listening to Ella Fitzgerald and Joe Pass with Tim in your room. I did not even notice those huge speakers. Ella was singing about her lush life and Joe was just playing his guitar in front of us.
I think it is the tangibility in sound that horn seem to bring to the listening room. I rememer VladB a fellow WBF member who has pretty much the same Cessaro as mine like to listen to his system leisurely somewhere way off to the side of his speakers. My room is L-shape I also listen to music on my sofar often at the right-end of the L. I did recorded a video playing jazz once off-axis. It sounded good still. The point is when the sound is very tangible with pure density and energy, the notes you hear seem more like the instrument is making sound in your room regardless where you sit.
These are beautifully written posts, Peter! Ever since I learned about horns, I have felt that horns move air in a way that is consonant with the way that instruments themselves, brass instruments especially, move the air around them so we can hear their sounds.
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