Natural Sound

[awsmone]

I considered this. 950 lbs on top shelf, plus 750 lbs for rack and rest of gear, 1700 total weight at the rack. This is excluding the speakers and amplifiers and their separate stands. I installed a steel column under each of the four rack posts going down to the bedrock in the basement. I am not worried about my old floor.

View attachment 97944

View attachment 97945

Peter , u think of everything

 

[microstrip]

The 6H30 became popular, starting with Viktor Kramenko and BAT. The 1st ARC Reference Phono (circa 2000) used 11 6922s. The 2nd ARC Reference Phono used 2 6H30s per channel.

The Ref 10 uses 8 6H30 in its amplifier with 1 6H30 per channel in the power supply. Same for the Ref10 Phono.

The Lamm LL1.1 uses 8 6H30 triodes in the signal path (4 per channel).

The signal tubes are used in very different ways. Audio Research uses a several stage fully balanced circuit, the Lamm connects all triodes in parallel, building a composite triode, like conrand johnson in the ART and ACT preamplfiers.

I tried the ARC Ref 10 with the Lamm LP1 and the ARC Ref 10 Phono with the Lamm L2.1 Ref. I preferred the ARC with ARC, and Lamm with Lamm. In the not too distant future I'll bring in the Lamm LL1.1, which you and Peter have.

Fully agree with you. They do not mix.

I don't know if it is fair to say the difference in ARC and Lamm sound is not due to the character of 6H30. Perhaps moreso due to the differences in their power supplies.

Yes, all else, except the 6h30's is different!

Would you describe sonic differences you hear between the L2 Ref and LL1.1 Signature?

A night and day difference - the L2 Ref being the night. The L1signature - that I have been told is 99% of the L1.1Signature - presents a luminous full range soundstage with great dynamics , agile bass and an extended treble - the reference music I listened mostly with it was digital , my musical comments will be meaningless in this thread. The L2Ref sounds more restrained and unwieldy compared to the L1signature . The L2ref is a very good match for the M1.2ref, but IMHO harder to pair with other power amplifiers.

 

[DasguteOhr]

The 6H30 became popular, starting with Viktor Kramenko and BAT. The 1st ARC Reference Phono (circa 2000) used 11 6922s. The 2nd ARC Reference Phono used 2 6H30s per channel.

The Ref 10 uses 8 6H30 in its amplifier with 1 6H30 per channel in the power supply. Same for the Ref10 Phono.

The Lamm LL1.1 uses 8 6H30 triodes in the signal path (4 per channel).

I tried the ARC Ref 10 with the Lamm LP1 and the ARC Ref 10 Phono with the Lamm L2.1 Ref. I preferred the ARC with ARC, and Lamm with Lamm. In the not too distant future I'll bring in the Lamm LL1.1, which you and Peter have.

I don't know if it is fair to say the difference in ARC and Lamm sound is not due to the character of 6H30. Perhaps moreso due to the differences in their power supplies.

Would you describe sonic differences you hear between the L2 Ref and LL1.1 Signature?

Sorry 4 tubes in a lamm 8 triodesystems, 4 triodesystem per chanel parallel.
depends on how hard you operate the tube (quiescent current) operating point. can sound very different. sounds really great from exsample 25mA - 40mA with 90-130 volts. voltage and current stabilization is important for the tube so that you can force it into the working point until the end of life.Unfortunately, the good 6h30dr reflector types have become unaffordable. Sorry for off topic

 

[microstrip]

Sorry 4 tubes in a lamm 8 triodesystems, 4 triodesystem per chanel parallel.
depends on how hard you operate the tube (quiescent current) operating point. can sound very different. sounds really great from exsample 25mA - 40mA with 90-130 volts. voltage and current stabilization is important for the tube so that you can force it into the working point until the end of life.Unfortunately, the good 6h30dr reflector types have become unaffordable. Sorry for off topicView attachment 97950

They are mono units, 4 tubes, 8 parallel triodes per channel.

The old conrad johnson ART had 5 tubes 10 6922 triodes per channel. The probability of a noisy triode was high, it was why I sold it ...

 

[DasguteOhr]

They are mono units, 4 tubes, 8 parallel triodes per channel.

The old conrad johnson ART had 5 tubes 10 6922 triodes per channel. The probability of a noisy triode was high, it was why I sold it ...

Ok my fault mono no true balanced design forgot. Same with 6h30 tubes if you want 4 identical tubes you have to buy 10 . very microphonics sensitive scatter very

 

[XV-1]

They are mono units, 4 tubes, 8 parallel triodes per channel.

The old conrad johnson ART had 5 tubes 10 6922 triodes per channel. The probability of a noisy triode was high, it was why I sold it ...

It was a wonderful preamp. Funny in the 3 or so years I owned it, it, never had a tube issue.
Unlike the GAT which ate thru the crappy 6922 tubes until I put some Telefunken tubes onto it. An even better preamp.

 

[morricab]

It was a wonderful preamp. Funny in the 3 or so years I owned it, it, never had a tube issue.
Unlike the GAT which ate thru the crappy 6922 tubes until I put some Telefunken tubes onto it. An even better preamp.

The earliest version of the NAT Plasma was similar. It had 6 x 6922 per channel as a single gain stage. True dual mono with full tube rectification and regulation, polypropylene power caps and built like a tank. Great sound as well…it seems to be a good recipe for a pre.

 

[tima]

A night and day difference - the L2 Ref being the night. The L1signature - that I have been told is 99% of the L1.1Signature - presents a luminous full range soundstage with great dynamics , agile bass and an extended treble - the reference music I listened mostly with it was digital , my musical comments will be meaningless in this thread. The L2Ref sounds more restrained and unwieldy compared to the L1signature . The L2ref is a very good match for the M1.2ref, but IMHO harder to pair with other power amplifiers.

Thanks for that. I agree the L2.1 Ref works well with the M1.2 and is not embarassed with the ML2.2. You words do make me want to hear the L1.1 Sig.

 

[PeterA]

I have the original LL1 Signature. It is superb. It takes up a lot of space, gets quite warm and does not have a remote.

 

[Kingrex]

I considered this. 950 lbs on top shelf, plus 750 lbs for rack and rest of gear, 1700 total weight at the rack. This is excluding the speakers and amplifiers and their separate stands. I installed a steel column under each of the four rack posts going down to the bedrock in the basement. I am not worried about my old floor.

View attachment 97944
I don't know about columns. I can't do that. But I have considered opening my basement ceiling, adding blocking, coating the beams and blocks with anti vibration compounds.

View attachment 97945

 

[ddk]

Thanks for that. I agree the L2.1 Ref works well with the M1.2 and is not embarassed with the ML2.2. You words do make me want to hear the L1.1 Sig.

I continue to use my L1 & L2 with ML2s and never feel I'm missing anything after over two decades. Yes the LL1 is superior but L2 is it's own monarch, it's as natural sounding as they come.

david

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I have the original LL1 Signature. It is superb. It takes up a lot of space, gets quite warm and does not have a remote.

Remotes are for wimps

 

[PeterA]

Remotes are for wimps

I used to enjoy using my remote. I don’t miss it at all anymore.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I used to enjoy using my remote. I don’t miss it at all anymore.

I don’t have one either - also surprisingly not bothered at all by not.

 

[microstrip]

Ok my fault mono no true balanced design forgot. Same with 6h30 tubes if you want 4 identical tubes you have to buy 10 . very microphonics sensitive scatter very

It was a wonderful preamp. Funny in the 3 or so years I owned it, it, never had a tube issue.
Unlike the GAT which ate thru the crappy 6922 tubes until I put some Telefunken tubes onto it. An even better preamp.

I found that the more critical point when using preamplfiers with triodes in parallel is current plate matching between triodes of the same tube. If they are not well matched one triode starts carrying more current than the other , heats a lot increasing the current even more and soon becomes noisy.

After I built a custom jig to select tubes the problems are gone. Only a few sellers sell double triodes with balanced sections. But even buying selected triodes from good vendors I usually get a 8 very good triodes from a lot of 10.

If we manage to get proper matched and well balanced 6922's conrad johnson units become extremely reliable!

 

[awsmone]

I found that the more critical point when using preamplfiers with triodes in parallel is current plate matching between triodes of the same tube. If they are not well matched one triode starts carrying more current than the other , heats a lot increasing the current even more and soon becomes noisy.

After I built a custom jig to select tubes the problems are gone. Only a few sellers sell double triodes with balanced sections. But even buying selected triodes from good vendors I usually get a 8 very good triodes from a lot of 10.

If we manage to get proper matched and well balanced 6922's conrad johnson units become extremely reliable!

That’s very interesting
can u show us the jig plz?

 

[awsmone]

I continue to use my L1 & L2 with ML2s and never feel I'm missing anything after over two decades. Yes the LL1 is superior but L2 is it's own monarch, it's as natural sounding as they come.

david

David some have said the ml2 was the best of the 3 versions what r ur thoughts ?

 

[ALF]

ml2 is the bee’s knees…

vbw,
-a

 

[ddk]

David some have said the ml2 was the best of the 3 versions what r ur thoughts ?

There’s an “X” factor to a small group of vintage components that I never heard from anything modern, except the ML2. ML2.1 sounds almost identical but no X factor. It’s not something one’s going to notice in majority of systems but it’s there. Wish I could explain it better but it’s there.
ML2.2 has a different design that comes from the ML3, not having spent any real time with one I can’t comment much about its sound except that it’s still a Lamm and exceptional sound.

david

 

[tima]

I can tell you one thing: WBF has an impact on the market. In 2021 it was not uncommon to find one or two for sale with some frequency. The more we've chatted up the Lamm ML2/2.1/2.2 the fewer of these amps are found today in used condition for sale in North America.

My interest in these amps is long term - I started a thread about matching speakers for the ML2.x back in 2018. The ML2 came out towards the end of 1998 at $30k/pair with ML2.1 arriving 2004 at about the same price. 2020 msrp for the ML2.2: ~$46k USD. For the past 9 months I've been following the used market for these monoblocks. It is within the last 6 months that US availability grew scarce. Today used prices for ML2.1/2.2 run ~$14k - 20k - if you can find a pair. I think $14-15k is something of a bargain for what they are.

Being a world-wide market and world-wide forum, there are examples for sale outside the US:

ML 2.1 Mono Tube Power Amplifier

ML2.1 is the direct replacement of the ML2 -- the first in a line of LAMM single-ended amplifiers with a regulated power supply that represented a new generation of power amplifiers employing unique high current low impedance power vacuum tube triodes (6C33C) in both the output stage and voltage...

dubaiaudio.com

Ohm Audio bv - The AUDIOSHOP

www.ohm-audio.nl

https://www.av-market.com/en/listing/lamm-industries-ml2-1-mono-amplifiers-1666167839

LAMM ML2.2 - Power Amplifiers

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd"> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> <head> <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8; http-equiv="Content-Type" /> <title

www.highperformancestereo.com

(picture is M1.2)

Lamm Industries ML2.1 monoblocks

Lamm ML2.1 2005 monoblocks Class AMint condition very low usage (not broken in)Factory checked and EU voltageSet of new tubesCurrently stored in London by a leading UK distributor of HiFi equipmentAll fees paid by the buyer (bank wire, can be supervised by the distributor)

www.ukaudiomart.com