I have been listening to a lot of cello lately. Here is one of my favorite pieces recorded in a stone church. It is also one of @MadFloyd 's. Bach/Kodaly, Frans Helmerson, BIS LP-25 Stereo.
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Natural Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
- Start date
David Karmeli just visited me to see his American Sound AS2000 turntable in place in my system and to fine tune things. I always learn a lot when talking to and spending time with ddk. This time was no different. David usually delivers these turntables to clients, sets them up and then installs and fine tunes the tonearms and cartridges. In my case, David also made many system and room set up suggestions.
David was busy working on @Tango 's new speakers when he offered me the last of the AS2000s, so he suggested that I drive to the factory directly to pick up the turntable myself and to meet the man who builds them. I set up the turntable and have been enjoying it ever since, but I knew David could squeeze more performance out of the cartridges.
It was a short trip, but we got a lot done. David brought this LP with him as a gift for owners of the turntable. Here are two videos demonstrating the sound of the system after David made some adjustments to the room and cartridges. I was close with the Ortofon, but the Colibri was quite a bit off. They both sound much better now.
David completed the last couple of pieces to the puzzle, and the system is now basically complete. Thank you David for all of the guidance and service you have provided me as I pursue this fascinating hobby, and for the suggestions of various recordings. As you have said many times, the best part of the hobby is the friends you make. It is now time to listen to the music.
David was busy working on @Tango 's new speakers when he offered me the last of the AS2000s, so he suggested that I drive to the factory directly to pick up the turntable myself and to meet the man who builds them. I set up the turntable and have been enjoying it ever since, but I knew David could squeeze more performance out of the cartridges.
It was a short trip, but we got a lot done. David brought this LP with him as a gift for owners of the turntable. Here are two videos demonstrating the sound of the system after David made some adjustments to the room and cartridges. I was close with the Ortofon, but the Colibri was quite a bit off. They both sound much better now.
David completed the last couple of pieces to the puzzle, and the system is now basically complete. Thank you David for all of the guidance and service you have provided me as I pursue this fascinating hobby, and for the suggestions of various recordings. As you have said many times, the best part of the hobby is the friends you make. It is now time to listen to the music.
Peter finally came ashore from his summer sailing adventures long enough to let me listen in person to the Peggy Lee cut on his system, which I wished to hear as a comparison with the sonic impression given by his eponymous YouTube video.
The impression was Extraordinary for what it taught me.
First, this recording, on this system, provided the most natural-sounding presentation of plucked string bass I have ever heard. I didn't muse about 'extension' or 'air around the instrument': I felt the performance, its nuances and what it gave me musically and emotionally.
Second, if I were a recording engineer, I feel some confidence that I would be able to identify both the microphone used for Peggy Lee's vocal, and the console level setting for the reverb added to her voice, such was the combination of natural sound rendition, technical excellence and most importantly, perhaps, transparency of the presentation to the original performance.
Third, and this is discernible to a surprising degree in the YouTube video, there is genuine shock value in the percussive punctuation that follows Ms Lee's vocal lines. Believe me when I say this effect is stunningly, even memorably better presented through the system when heard in person.
Finally, the shimmer of symbols, and their seemingly perfect sound throughout their sound's decay is mesmerizing. And -- other than noting the reverb added to Ms Lee's vocal track-- I didn't comment upon her voice because I didn't note anything to comment upon, such was the transparency of the presentation. I should mention that this song's vocal presentation is stronger than many, if not most, songs: its explosive leading edge labials and rapid, effortless decay are powerfully exclamatory, like punctuation.
In small aspects of the differences between the Ortofon and the vdH cartridges, there were some details that are perhaps worth a mention. Both gave a strong impression of the recording venue: the vdH was the more delicately nuanced of the two to my ears, but with the power of this recording, that refinement might not be an advantage.
Finger snaps with the Ortofon, by contrast, sounded as though they might have been recorded separately and dubbed in, where with the vdH these snaps sounded fully integrated into the sound track. Vocally there were differences, but neither cartridge seemed to stand out over the other in this frequency range. Bass was stunningly presented by the Ortofon, authoritatively. The ambiance of the recording venue, in my opinion, was differently depicted by each transducer.
For my listening preference, and not knowing the recording that Peter graciously played at my request ( specifically because I had recently listened to the YouTube video ) I feel the Ortofon just flat out had balls. While I did not *by any means* dislike the van den Hull's presentation, the Ortofon's presentation better suited this recording's stringent sonic demands by a substantial margin. I found this one of the most informative comparative demonstrations I've experienced in this hobby.
I remain surprised that so many of these distinctions can clearly be discerned in videos that are easily made with technology that is accessible to most of us. The fact that the differences can readily be heard is due in part, I hypothesize, to the most uncommon resolution capability of Peter's system, carefully assembled around components that match each other with Exceptional, Elusive and Exemplary complementarity. It's like a musician whose licks seem effortless when they result from decades of listening and perfecting one's 'sound', or as Ansel Adams used to say, "Yes, it only took 1/60th of a second to make the photograph.... and forty-two years”.
The impression was Extraordinary for what it taught me.
First, this recording, on this system, provided the most natural-sounding presentation of plucked string bass I have ever heard. I didn't muse about 'extension' or 'air around the instrument': I felt the performance, its nuances and what it gave me musically and emotionally.
Second, if I were a recording engineer, I feel some confidence that I would be able to identify both the microphone used for Peggy Lee's vocal, and the console level setting for the reverb added to her voice, such was the combination of natural sound rendition, technical excellence and most importantly, perhaps, transparency of the presentation to the original performance.
Third, and this is discernible to a surprising degree in the YouTube video, there is genuine shock value in the percussive punctuation that follows Ms Lee's vocal lines. Believe me when I say this effect is stunningly, even memorably better presented through the system when heard in person.
Finally, the shimmer of symbols, and their seemingly perfect sound throughout their sound's decay is mesmerizing. And -- other than noting the reverb added to Ms Lee's vocal track-- I didn't comment upon her voice because I didn't note anything to comment upon, such was the transparency of the presentation. I should mention that this song's vocal presentation is stronger than many, if not most, songs: its explosive leading edge labials and rapid, effortless decay are powerfully exclamatory, like punctuation.
In small aspects of the differences between the Ortofon and the vdH cartridges, there were some details that are perhaps worth a mention. Both gave a strong impression of the recording venue: the vdH was the more delicately nuanced of the two to my ears, but with the power of this recording, that refinement might not be an advantage.
Finger snaps with the Ortofon, by contrast, sounded as though they might have been recorded separately and dubbed in, where with the vdH these snaps sounded fully integrated into the sound track. Vocally there were differences, but neither cartridge seemed to stand out over the other in this frequency range. Bass was stunningly presented by the Ortofon, authoritatively. The ambiance of the recording venue, in my opinion, was differently depicted by each transducer.
For my listening preference, and not knowing the recording that Peter graciously played at my request ( specifically because I had recently listened to the YouTube video ) I feel the Ortofon just flat out had balls. While I did not *by any means* dislike the van den Hull's presentation, the Ortofon's presentation better suited this recording's stringent sonic demands by a substantial margin. I found this one of the most informative comparative demonstrations I've experienced in this hobby.
I remain surprised that so many of these distinctions can clearly be discerned in videos that are easily made with technology that is accessible to most of us. The fact that the differences can readily be heard is due in part, I hypothesize, to the most uncommon resolution capability of Peter's system, carefully assembled around components that match each other with Exceptional, Elusive and Exemplary complementarity. It's like a musician whose licks seem effortless when they result from decades of listening and perfecting one's 'sound', or as Ansel Adams used to say, "Yes, it only took 1/60th of a second to make the photograph.... and forty-two years”.
David (cdk84),
What a wonderful, well-written and expressive recounting of that listening session. You have the ability to clearly convey what you heard from the system and make the comparison to the video. The differences between the two cartridges are also fascinating. These are the kinds of posts that I enjoy reading because they tell us what a listener experienced and his reflections on that. I appreciate you taking the time to write it all down and share it here. I look forward to your next visit and seeing if your thoughts change a bit hearing the system after David's recent visit to fine tune things.
Here is a reposting of that YouTube video for quick reference:
What a wonderful, well-written and expressive recounting of that listening session. You have the ability to clearly convey what you heard from the system and make the comparison to the video. The differences between the two cartridges are also fascinating. These are the kinds of posts that I enjoy reading because they tell us what a listener experienced and his reflections on that. I appreciate you taking the time to write it all down and share it here. I look forward to your next visit and seeing if your thoughts change a bit hearing the system after David's recent visit to fine tune things.
Here is a reposting of that YouTube video for quick reference:
That's an interesting observation. I read your post before listening to the video and I can understand why you thought of that with the Ortofon. There's quite the decay (reverb??) on the snaps.
Listening three times through my mediocre little computer speakers, I did not hear cymbals in the video. Of course you and Peter heard the system directly.
I might have guessed he used soft mallets like a timpani player but from a different YouTube video it was interesting to see the drummer (Jack Sperling) played his kit with his hands. Very similar sound to Peter's recording. His technique was interesting. I like seeing musicians play. If the sidemen are listed on Peter's album, is Sperling the drummer?
Thanks for the write-up, I enjoyed reading your observations.
Interesting video, thank you for posting it.
I'm not a fan of this version's increased tempo/pace, it sounds rushed and hurried, but interesting.
Tim, I did not hear the cymbals in the recording either. David must have been thinking about another LP that we played that afternoon when he made those comments.
Thanks Peter for confirming what I heard. On the video the drummer never touched the cymbals, so I figured it must have been something else that drove the comment. I thought it was cool that the drummer played his snare and tom with his fingers. I am fascinated by performance techniques that musicians use to achieve the sound they do. It's not that obvious with woodwinds as it is usually embouchre. With brass (horns, trumpets, trombones, tuba, etc.) you'll see the player use his hand in various ways at the bell of the horn, or use a mute - lots of jazz with muted trumpet. String players can use their bow for a certain effect, sometimes drawing or striking strings with the wood part of the bow and that can be written into the score. They will also use their fingers - rock guitar players have nothing on certain show-off violinists. The making of music can be as interesting as the hearing.
I suppose tempo was whatever Peggy wanted to do. Maybe after performing it as many times as she did, a little variety was in order?
Thank you Gian. I appreciate the comment and you are right about the contribution to the overall sound from the new AS2000. Here are a couple of videos of the same song made after David came to visit to fine tune the two cartridges and overall system set up. One video is of the vDH Colibri and the other is of the Ortofon SL-15. I think the differences between the cartridges are interesting as well as the difference in the sound after David's visit compared to the video just a few posts up.
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Tonal differences between the two. Video A above evinces more impact right from the opening bass plucks onward and a bit more presence and clarity from Peggy. Both are quite realistic. An obvious improvement - nice work!
David heard the issues immediately and went to work. The Ortofon was close but the Colibrí was well off in terms of set up. They both sound better now.
It is very interesting to have documented the sound for this before and after David’s visit for this comparison later. It is also fascinating just how big a difference proper set up makes and that the videos can capture it so clearly.
We Invited two couples over for dinner last weekend. During cocktails in the living room they asked to hear some music. I played the Eleanor Rigby cover on Musica Nuda that David had given me when he was here doing the set up. After dinner, we played the rest of the record. One couple told me the next morning that they enjoyed themselves so much, they went home around midnight and started playing music until the early hours of the morning dancing away in their living room.
This is what it is all about.
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Hello Salectric,
David came and listened. He had been here once before after the speakers arrived, about a year ago. This time, with the new AS 2000 and Ortofon cartridge, he was able to hear more resolution and noticed a couple of issues with room acoustics. The power delivery and grounding were also improved last spring. Based on the new sound, he suggested removing my fireplace screen and tools to remove those reflections/resonances. We then added some wood boards to the area around the fireplace surround which reduced the impact of the hollow walls over the brick chimney. These are problem areas in the room. I will be adjusting that with some construction and integrating it further for better aesthetics. These changes improved overall the presentation in terms of clarity and tone. We could hear more of what the system was actually doing now.
It was now time to fine tune the cartridges. Remember, David is very familiar with the potential sound of this particular system, because he basically heard it set up and heard it in his own house. Cartridge alignment (overhang) was fine as was azimuth. The VTA and VTF needed very slight adjustment for the Ortofon cartridge. David had taught me his specific cartridge set up method when I first visited him in Utah. I had gotten this one pretty close. He ended up lowering the arm by one card and increasing the VTF by about 0.1g. Suddenly, we knew that was it.
The Colibri was further off. The arm was way too high. We lowered it and again, very slightly changed the tracking force. All of this was done by listening. David taught me his method, but I clearly have more to learn and need to practice it.
After both cartridges were adjusted, the system and room melted away and we were left with just the music at the venue. The improvement was pretty dramatic. We took a break for a quick dinner and then just listened to music pretty late until I drove him to his hotel. It was an intense day and we accomplished a lot. The result is quite obvious and is demonstrated on the before and after recordings. I always learn a lot from watching David working on a system and room, but it was also a lot of fun spending the day together. Now, I am left to simply listen to my recordings.
This afternoon I invited over a friend who wanted to hear my system. He is not an audiophile. He loves music and attends more live concerts than anyone I know. He started buying records again, so I gave him my old college turntable to play his new records on.
He came over and I explained what all the boxes do, what makes my turntable special, and then took the cover off my corner horns. He was mildly interested. Of course he had never seen a system like this before. I told him the speakers and the cartridge were made when he was born. He smiled and said “Let’s listen to some music.”
I played a couple tracks of Musica Nuda for him with the two cartridges for comparison. He told me which one he preferred and then we used that for the rest of the afternoon. It was the vintage cartridge. He looked through the 60 or so LPs I have down in the listening room and told me which ones he wanted to hear.
Sonny Boy Williamson, Portraits in Blues
Thelma Houston, I’ve got the music in me
Sheffield Drum Record with Jim Keltner
Cream, Fresh Cream
Grant Green, Green Street
Sonny Rollins, Way out West
He didn’t say much and didn’t ask about the gear, but he really got into the music. We talked about Sunny Boy’s harmonica, the horns backing up Thelma Houston, and Ginger Baker and the impact of the drum beaten by Jim Keltner. He said he wanted to come back in a few days with his musician friend to listen to more. His musician friend happens to be a furniture maker and is the very guy who built the rack supporting my gear. He also suggested we play the Thelma Houston record for yet another friend whom we just heard singing in his band because it would be awfully cool to have them learn that music for their next gig.
The members here may be into the gear more than most, but their systems get them closer to their music. And like I did this afternoon, they can share their systems with others which is when the real fun happens.
What a great hobby!
He came over and I explained what all the boxes do, what makes my turntable special, and then took the cover off my corner horns. He was mildly interested. Of course he had never seen a system like this before. I told him the speakers and the cartridge were made when he was born. He smiled and said “Let’s listen to some music.”
I played a couple tracks of Musica Nuda for him with the two cartridges for comparison. He told me which one he preferred and then we used that for the rest of the afternoon. It was the vintage cartridge. He looked through the 60 or so LPs I have down in the listening room and told me which ones he wanted to hear.
Sonny Boy Williamson, Portraits in Blues
Thelma Houston, I’ve got the music in me
Sheffield Drum Record with Jim Keltner
Cream, Fresh Cream
Grant Green, Green Street
Sonny Rollins, Way out West
He didn’t say much and didn’t ask about the gear, but he really got into the music. We talked about Sunny Boy’s harmonica, the horns backing up Thelma Houston, and Ginger Baker and the impact of the drum beaten by Jim Keltner. He said he wanted to come back in a few days with his musician friend to listen to more. His musician friend happens to be a furniture maker and is the very guy who built the rack supporting my gear. He also suggested we play the Thelma Houston record for yet another friend whom we just heard singing in his band because it would be awfully cool to have them learn that music for their next gig.
The members here may be into the gear more than most, but their systems get them closer to their music. And like I did this afternoon, they can share their systems with others which is when the real fun happens.
What a great hobby!
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