Natural Sound

[cdk84]

TimA I owe you an apology, and others on this thread, for an inaccuracy on my most recent post on PeterA's system.

I mentioned cymbals in the Peggy Lee audio, and --as you have correctly stated-- there are none. I wrote my observations about that listening session immediately after hearing the LP live: I wanted the comparison 'on paper' while my impressions of both the video and in-person system listen were freshly in mind.

When I returned to my notes to edit, Far too much time had elapsed for an accurate recollection of specific instrumental content. Mea culpa. Honestly I don't remember when I added the comment about symbols, though I suspect it was after our listening to the Sheffield Drum Track by Ron Keltner soon after hearing the Peggy Lee cut in person at Peter's.

As often happens with a quantum improvement in one's system ( Peter's in this case ) we wanted to listen to a variety of familiar music to 're-tune' our ears to the new impressions, in part in the effort to discern whether the experience is 'just a change' or an improvement of quality in presentation. I will at some point look forward to saying more about the most recent changes in Peter's system, hopeful that I am not adding either too much of my own hot air --or any further inaccuracy. I can assure you that the comment about cymbals in Peter's system, though a skew line in relation to the Peggy Lee recording, was based upon listening experience; it was simply misfiled in my own occasionally DOS, meaning Dopey Operating System.

Either way, my first impressions were put down when recent, vivid and strong. I'm sorry to have misled or confused anyone with the misplaced cymbal comment.

 

[tima]

Dear cdk84 - thanks for your post. No apologies needed, none, zero - it's all good.

I read your account of listening to the Peggy-Fever LP then listened to the video myself. I assumed my local reproduction with a desktop computer simply did not resolve the video enough for me to hear the cymbals. I like to check my take on a video with that of others. I figured I might find a different Peggy video that would yield what was missing. When I didn't, I posted about not hearing cymbals to learn the comments of others. That post was me checking my hearing. When Peter confirmed not hearing cymbals I assumed something happened like you describe -- it was no big deal. I did not feel misled or confused.

I thank you for your follow-up and look forward to reading more of your impressions of listening to Peter's system.

 

[jespera]

PeterA: Following your excursions with the ortofon sl15, I spotted one for sale locally here in copenhagen for a very reasonable price. Seller claimed it had never really been used. So i bought it.

It is an SL15ELL. I stuck it into a 3012r at 2g vtf and i use a cinemag step up.

It took little time to realise that this is a _very_ good cartridge. Sounds a bit like my spu but more detailed particularly in the top. But still with real body to the sound — though possibly a tad less body than the spu. Very smooth and natural from top to bottom. Good weight and kick to the bass too.

Particularly good with fine recordings and pressings. Maybe less so with abused vinyl.

 

[PeterA]

PeterA: Following your excursions with the ortofon sl15, I spotted one for sale locally here in copenhagen for a very reasonable price. Seller claimed it had never really been used. So i bought it.

It is an SL15ELL. I stuck it into a 3012r at 2g vtf and i use a cinemag step up.

It took little time to realise that this is a _very_ good cartridge. Sounds a bit like my spu but more detailed particularly in the top. But still with real body to the sound — though possibly a tad less body than the spu. Very smooth and natural from top to bottom. Good weight and kick to the bass too.

Particularly good with fine recordings and pressings. Maybe less so with abused vinyl.

That is great, Jespera. Glad you like it. I think it is a great cartridge, very well balanced and highly resolving. Have you tried a slightly lighter VTF? I also found that VTA is critical for best sound. DDK adjusted mine slightly when he visited and it made a nice improvement.

 

[jespera]

That is great, Jespera. Glad you like it. I think it is a great cartridge, very well balanced and highly resolving. Have you tried a slightly lighter VTF? I also found that VTA is critical for best sound. DDK adjusted mine slightly when he visited and it made a nice improvement.

Ive only used it for two days. Right now im just enjoying it. Will mess with it later.

 

[PeterA]

I have been thinking about a specific quality which ddk refers to as "mass". I first heard this sense of mass in Utah. I think of it as a sense of physicality: the impression that the instruments and singers are there in front of you, not just as a three dimensional image, but as a palpable, physical presence. I think it is similar to "presence", but this is something more. I think of "presence" as a visual impression. It is about image and scale. "Mass" is more of a physical sensation. It is actually feeling the energy from the instruments or voice hit the skin of my arms resting on the back edge of my leather sofa, the vibrations of the floor coming through the oriental carpet and through my feet, and the sound pressure hitting my chest. Many systems, given enough volume and speaker surface area, can push the air and deliver that pressure, but it is often just a big, flat, wall of sound. I am trying to describe something different, something more convincing, but for me, previously elusive: that sense that the performers are physically occupying in the space in front of me, playing their instruments, and producing an energy that I can physically feel. For this, there must be more than simply air pressure from a loud wall of sound.

I think this quality of mass comes from a system's ability to produce energy in a focused way, resolving the distinct instrument timbres and a venue's ambient cues. The system must also be very dynamic. Resolution and clarity are important system requirements, but I think the key is that the system presents the instruments as being grounded, with weight and body, and it must project the energy out so that it fills the room. I can now actually feel the energy of the resonance of a cello's strings exciting its wooden body. I sense the physical size and weight of a piano's frame. I clearly see the metal brush tapping or stroking the brass cymbal. I am almost touched by the breath of a singer's voice. On really good recordings, it is a bit strange because these impressions seem more than mere sounds. They have a physicality to them. They are presented clearly, in space, in a convincing relative scale, and in the full context of the venue in which they were recorded. The volume does not need to be loud, but it can easily approach live levels, on the right recordings. The images do not need to be big, but they can be realistic for a solo instrument or quartet.

My system with the new table and cartridge can now present this impression of mass. It is one of the qualities I remember so vividly from my visits to Utah. Tima and I heard it when listening to Ella Fitzerald and Joe Pass in ddk's room. I am beginning to understand it now, and it is no longer elusive.

 

[morricab]

I was thinking of hearing that very recording at David's as I read your post. And from that experience (and others there) I believe I understand exactly what you working out with words.

I had not thought about the words - excuse me for doing this outloud. Mass is a good term for the phenomenon, especially accompanying the experience you describe. I may be inclined to say mass of energy or energy presence or 'sonic energy made physical' only because mass requires an explanation different from its common meaning. A synonym of 'lifelike' is 'natural'. There is a French word, 'vraisemblance' that means something like 'appearance of truth'. Verisimilitude makes me think of 'authenticity'.

The sense of it I had at David's was there regardless of eyes open or shut. But with eyes shut I saw Ella in my 'mind's eye' and with eyes open I saw the open space between the two Bionors, and sensed or felt the weight of presence.



This is very good descriptive writing. Great post!

Your turntable is almost anti-mass by comparison to Peter's

 

[tima]

Your turntable is almost anti-mass by comparison to Peter's

Heh - yes. It's an entirely different approach. Lower mass, lower torque. Almost inertialess

 

[Jon]

Great post Peter. Your description resonated with me because while I love my system mass is lacking. I was never able to describe the shortcoming, but mass as described is perfect.

 

[Audire]

Natural sound. What sounds the most natural to us. What makes our feet tap, and what gets us the most emotionally evolved? This is what I desire. It’s the most natural sound to me. If it takes a $10,000 or a $1,000,000 whatever it takes to get “the desired sound” so be it…. I desire the best for my ears.

 

[PeterA]

Great post Peter. Your description resonated with me because while I love my system mass is lacking. I was never able to describe the shortcoming, but mass as described is perfect.

I can relate Jon. This quality was elusive until I got the new cartridge and turntable. And my Colibri cartridge does not deliver it. I only heard it before with the Neumann cartridge on the 3012R and AS 2000 turntable. I suspect it is a property of the cartridge but it also must be delivered through the rest of the system and into the room. It contributes greatly to realism.

 

[PeterA]

Natural sound. What sounds the most natural to us. What makes our feet tap, and what gets us the most emotionally evolved? This is what I desire. It’s the most natural sound to me. If it takes a $10,000 or a $1,000,000 whatever it takes to get “the desired sound” so be it…. I desire the best for my ears.

Joe, listen to the video of Eleanor Rigby on @Tango ’s new speakers. The sense of mass comes through clearly. It has gravitas and heft and you hear the physical presence of that double bass and her voice, even over a YouTube video. It is pretty remarkable.

 

[PeterA]

Heh - yes. It's an entirely different approach. Lower mass, lower torque. Almost inertialess

Coming up with radically different approaches toward the same goal of playing music in the most engaging way possible is one of the fascinating aspects of this hobby.

 

[Kingsrule]

View attachment 100263


I have been thinking about a specific quality which ddk refers to as "mass". I first heard this sense of mass in Utah. I think of it as a sense of physicality: the impression that the instruments and singers are there in front of you, not just as a three dimensional image, but as a palpable, physical presence. I think it is similar to "presence", but this is something more. I think of "presence" as a visual impression. It is about image and scale. "Mass" is more of a physical sensation. It is actually feeling the energy from the instruments or voice hit the skin of my arms resting on the back edge of my leather sofa, the vibrations of the floor coming through the oriental carpet and through my feet, and the sound pressure hitting my chest. Many systems, given enough volume and speaker surface area, can push the air and deliver that pressure, but it is often just a big, flat, wall of sound. I am trying to describe something different, something more convincing, but for me, previously elusive: that sense that the performers are physically occupying in the space in front of me, playing their instruments, and producing an energy that I can physically feel. For this, there must be more than simply air pressure from a loud wall of sound.

I think this quality of mass comes from a system's ability to produce energy in a focused way, resolving the distinct instrument timbres and a venue's ambient cues. The system must also be very dynamic. Resolution and clarity are important system requirements, but I think the key is that the system presents the instruments as being grounded, with weight and body, and it must project the energy out so that it fills the room. I can now actually feel the energy of the resonance of a cello's strings exciting its wooden body. I sense the physical size and weight of a piano's frame. I clearly see the metal brush tapping or stroking the brass cymbal. I am almost touched by the breath of a singer's voice. On really good recordings, it is a bit strange because these impressions seem more than mere sounds. They have a physicality to them. They are presented clearly, in space, in a convincing relative scale, and in the full context of the venue in which they were recorded. The volume does not need to be loud, but it can easily approach live levels, on the right recordings. The images do not need to be big, but they can be realistic for a solo instrument or quartet.

My system with the new table and cartridge can now present this impression of mass. It is one of the qualities I remember so vividly from my visits to Utah. Tima and I heard it when listening to Ella Fitzerald and Joe Pass in ddk's room. I am beginning to understand it now, and it is no longer elusive.

Shouldn't the motor be the same height as the plinth?...It seems like the string more towards the center of the platter would be best?

BTW great photo..The AS2000 IMO is the best looking piece of audio gear ever...

 

[MRJAZZ]

View attachment 100263


I have been thinking about a specific quality which ddk refers to as "mass". I first heard this sense of mass in Utah. I think of it as a sense of physicality: the impression that the instruments and singers are there in front of you, not just as a three dimensional image, but as a palpable, physical presence. I think it is similar to "presence", but this is something more. I think of "presence" as a visual impression. It is about image and scale. "Mass" is more of a physical sensation. It is actually feeling the energy from the instruments or voice hit the skin of my arms resting on the back edge of my leather sofa, the vibrations of the floor coming through the oriental carpet and through my feet, and the sound pressure hitting my chest. Many systems, given enough volume and speaker surface area, can push the air and deliver that pressure, but it is often just a big, flat, wall of sound. I am trying to describe something different, something more convincing, but for me, previously elusive: that sense that the performers are physically occupying in the space in front of me, playing their instruments, and producing an energy that I can physically feel. For this, there must be more than simply air pressure from a loud wall of sound.

I think this quality of mass comes from a system's ability to produce energy in a focused way, resolving the distinct instrument timbres and a venue's ambient cues. The system must also be very dynamic. Resolution and clarity are important system requirements, but I think the key is that the system presents the instruments as being grounded, with weight and body, and it must project the energy out so that it fills the room. I can now actually feel the energy of the resonance of a cello's strings exciting its wooden body. I sense the physical size and weight of a piano's frame. I clearly see the metal brush tapping or stroking the brass cymbal. I am almost touched by the breath of a singer's voice. On really good recordings, it is a bit strange because these impressions seem more than mere sounds. They have a physicality to them. They are presented clearly, in space, in a convincing relative scale, and in the full context of the venue in which they were recorded. The volume does not need to be loud, but it can easily approach live levels, on the right recordings. The images do not need to be big, but they can be realistic for a solo instrument or quartet.

My system with the new table and cartridge can now present this impression of mass. It is one of the qualities I remember so vividly from my visits to Utah. Tima and I heard it when listening to Ella Fitzerald and Joe Pass in ddk's room. I am beginning to understand it now, and it is no longer elusive.

Excellent post...I would substitute Tonal Density for Mass, however they both convey similar impressions.....
Cheers....

 

[PeterA]

Shouldn't the motor be the same height as the plinth?...It seems like the string more towards the center of the platter would be best?

BTW great photo..The AS2000 IMO is the best looking piece of audio gear ever...

I don’t know the answer to the question about where the thread should make contact with the platter. There is very little tension with the thread. My old SME turntable had the belt driving a sub platter way below the center of gravity of the platter. David may have more thoughts on the matter.

I am glad you like the photograph. I just don’t get tired of looking at this turntable.

 

[chet atkins]

I don’t know the answer to the question about where the thread should make contact with the platter. There is very little tension with the thread. My old SME turntable had the belt driving a sub platter way below the center of gravity of the platter. David may have more thoughts on the matter.

I am glad you like the photograph. I just don’t get tired of looking at this turntable.

Is there a specific model of the sl 15 cart? I see there is an E a D and an ell tks

 

[PeterA]

Is there a specific model of the sl 15 cart? I see there is an E a D and an ell tks

I have the SL-15. There are differences with the other models one being output. I’m not too familiar with it but you can look it up online. Specifications are slightly different and one has a built-in step up transformer.

 

[tima]

I think this quality of mass comes from a system's ability to produce energy in a focused way, resolving the distinct instrument timbres and a venue's ambient cues. The system must also be very dynamic. Resolution and clarity are important system requirements, but I think the key is that the system presents the instruments as being grounded, with weight and body, and it must project the energy out so that it fills the room. I can now actually feel the energy of the resonance of a cello's strings exciting its wooden body. I sense the physical size and weight of a piano's frame. I clearly see the metal brush tapping or stroking the brass cymbal. I am almost touched by the breath of a singer's voice. On really good recordings, it is a bit strange because these impressions seem more than mere sounds. They have a physicality to them.

.I would substitute Tonal Density for Mass, however they both convey similar impressions.....
Cheers....

I like the word "mass" and it does capture what Peter and I experienced listening to Ella Fitzgerald singing 'Take Love Easy' through the AS200/Neumann EMT/Lamm/Bionors at David's. Trying to fit an experience into words can be difficult and likewise distilling that experience into a single word even more difficult. Once you have the experience the single word conveys its meaning but to 'learn' the experience from words alone needs explanation or further description as Peter's post gives us.

I agree that 'tonal density' -- a fully developed fundamental with 'rich' harmonics from initiation through decay -- is part of the mass characterization but is not its sole ingredient. This is part of exploring the term. There is a sense of physicality to sonic energy projected into the room that yields a sense of weight, density and presence. At this point, imo, mass is a psycho-acoustic property or quality - it is fragile in that it does not come immediately to hand as other psycho-acoustic properties such as 'soundstage' or 'image' - those terms are are grounded in visual analogy, mass is not. And fragile in the sense that the experience or sense of mass won't come from just any system.

Although psycho-acoustic in reproduction, the phenomenon is born out in reality. Play or sit next to someone playing a Steinway grand piano and close your eyes. Sit in a living room with a string quartet playing. You feel the physical energy of the instruments being played. You could take a sorcerer's apprentice perspective and say the instruments come to life. Without the reference to the sound of live acoustic music the pyscho-acoustic experience via reproduction becomes suspect or curious -- what is it I am hearing/sensing?

 

[the sound of Tao]

Although psycho-acoustic in reproduction, the phenomenon is born out in reality. Play or sit next to someone playing a Steinway grand piano and close your eyes. Sit in a living room with a string quartet playing. You feel the physical energy of the instruments being played. You could take a sorcerer's apprentice perspective and say the instruments come to life. Without the reference to the sound of live acoustic music the pyscho-acoustic experience via reproduction becomes suspect or curious -- what is it I am hearing/sensing?

Great thoughts all the way through this thread Tim and Peter, great writing as well… is this physical mass that sense that the room is being energised by the performance… a trait I’ve always figured that Maggie’s (which from memory Tim you have lived with) can be especially exceptional at… it is for me (along with an innate coherence) one of their greatest attributes.