Natural Sound

[PeterA]

Wow those drums and the bass section is sounding excellent with the punch, and not over right punch but the right punch that hits the skin of the drum and decays. What reissue is this, never heard a good BS reissue, the other ones paled to the Vertigo first press.

Thank you Bonzo. I will have to look up the reissue, but I bought the first two Black Sabbath LPs reissued about five years ago. Each one is a double set with never released alternative versions of the songs on the second disc. Some people think this reissue sounds bright but certainly not in my system.

The cartridge tuning and room adjustments that David made during his visit in October are pretty evident in the recent videos.

 

[PeterA]

As I live with this new system, I continue to improve my listening abilities and learn about audio. A few days ago I played my cherished LP, Johnny Hartman, "Once in Every Life". I noticed a slight distortion in the left channel of a couple of tracks when playing my Ortofon cartridge. To confirm that it was not the LP, I played it with the vdH Colibri and it was fine. I rechecked cartridge set up: zenith, azimuth, anti-skate, VTF and finally alignment. I checked alignment last because I thought it has been spot on. Nothing seemed to make a difference until I got to alignment. It is very hard to see the the stylus in the null point on the protractor, so I use a great little jig from member ddk. It allows one to measure the distance of the stylus from the headshell collar and then to use the jig installed on the arm with the protractor, keeping the cartridge off the table safe and secure. My measurement must have been slightly off, or I was not lining things up properly.

On 99% of the recordings, I hear no issues, but on the rare one, sure enough, there is tracking distortion. The jig and protractor looked fine, but I must have not read the distances precisely enough. I decided to try something different. I simply loosened the set screws on the sliding base of the SME tonearm and moved it backward very, very slightly, a fraction of a millimeter. I listened and it did not improve. It was the wrong direction. I then loosened the set screws again and moved the sled forward just a tad. This time, the sound improved and the distortion was gone.

The LP sounded glorious and I listened to some other recordings which all seems to sound better, more natural. If I were to describe it more specifically, the improvements were in tone, dynamics and presence (Jim Smith). Images were more solid. The instruments and singers seemed more physical in space in front of me. Bass strings became more flabby, wood tone more convincing, and the room more alive with huge amounts of energy - all this from a tiny, tiny movement of the arm forward in its mounting slot.

I thought I had learned what there is to know about cartridge set up, and what to listen for. I am now realizing that I do not know the limit of what to listen for until I hear it for the first time. The tools I use to set up the cartridge are great, but they are best used as a starting point, to get one close. The real work is trying to go beyond that. The magic is in the fine tuning by ear. This system's resolving ability and having now lived with the sound daily for over eighteen months, allows me to hear these very subtle differences. The result however, as many of you have learned for yourselves, can be much greater than expected from such small changes, and well worth the effort.

Once the big pieces are in place, the very fine adjustments to cartridge set up can make a huge difference in the enjoyment of a vinyl based system. Close enough turns out to not be good enough. I am learning how much I do not know and how the tools, as useful as they are, are just a starting point. Adjusting by ear seem for me to be the best way to improve the sound even further.

Here is a photo of me using my fingernail to very slightly move the SME armbase forward in its mounting slot. It made all the difference.

 

[ddk]

The best tools can get you pretty close but all measurements and initial setup procedure is done under static conditions. We can even allow for some minor adjustments to compensate for the dynamic condition to those measurements and get even closer to target but the final step is when things get moving. It’s really the person’s ability to hear, analyze and compensate dynamically is the final touch. Some parameters like VTA/SRA should only be set dynamically and by ear, current static methods I’ve seen are too crude IMO.

david

 

[PeterA]

The best tools can get you pretty close but all measurements and initial setup procedure is done under static conditions. We can even allow for some minor adjustments to compensate for the dynamic condition to those measurements and get even closer to target but the final step is when things get moving. It’s really the person’s ability to hear, analyze and compensate dynamically is the final touch. Some parameters like VTA/SRA should only be set dynamically and by ear, current static methods I’ve seen are too crude IMO.

david

That is a great point about the static condition of measurements around cartridge set up. Zenith and Azimuth seem pretty stable from static to dynamic conditions when the record is flat, but VTA and alignment certainly change so I agree that final tuning under dynamic conditions is best done by ear. VTF and anti-skate also need to be done by listening. And the cartridge suspension changes over time which may require further adjustment later.

David told me that the Ortofon SL-15 is particularly sensitive to precise set up. I guess I am learning that now and the sonic rewards are well worth the effort. I look back at my 30+ years in the hobby and now realize that I must never have really reached the potential of the various systems I have had because of a lack of knowledge or experience with set up. It can make such a big difference to the quality of the listening experience.

I also now think that one can be taught the methods by someone who knows, but it is only by living with the system over time and really getting to understand it, that one can move forward to optimize it. It takes effort and a willingness to experiment and work at it. I think I like to tinker by nature, so that helps. Knowing that I can continue to improve the sound is now where the fun part of the hobby is for me. The gear is more or less now set, but the learning continues, and with it, more insight to the music in my collection.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Most of us can get the tonearm mounted and the cartridge aligned and making music — hitting somewhere on the target. But I do believe that cartridge alignment is a bit of a black art.

I think merely getting on the target does not allow one to capitalize on the amazing sound quality of our expensive equipment is capable. I believe (and now I am making up a number) that that last 5% or 3% or 1% of adjustment heading towards perfect alignment holds a lot of otherwise-unrealized sonic magic.

 

[PeterA]

Most of us can get the tonearm mounted and the cartridge aligned and making music — hitting somewhere on the target. But I do believe that cartridge alignment is a bit of a black art.

I think merely getting on the target does not allow one to capitalize on the amazing sound quality of our expensive equipment is capable. I believe (and now I am making up a number) that that last 5% or 3% or 1% of adjustment heading towards perfect alignment holds a lot of otherwise-unrealized sonic magic.

Ron, I agree this may be where the magic lies in an otherwise well chosen and set up system. However, I do not agree that it is a black art. It is something that can be learned and one’s skill can be improved over time with practice.

 

[Ron Resnick]

It is something that can be learned and one’s skill can be improved over time with practice.

Yes, of course I agree with this. I greatly admire you for having the interest, patience and tenacity to refine your skills on this over time.

I adjusted and aligned all of my prior cartridges and I was never comfortable that I was achieving even 90% of perfect. I feel like I could spend the rest of my life learning how to do this gradually better and better, but I never will be half as good as David or one of the very few other exalted cartridge alignment masters.

So I have made a policy decision to outsource this particular element of the hobby to the very best and most experienced experts.

 

[shakti]

Ron, I agree this may be where the magic lies in an otherwise well chosen and set up system. However, I do not agree that it is a black art. It is something that can be learned and one’s skill can be improved over time with practice.

For me "fine tuning" is a skill, which can be learned and trained.

It will take some hours of learning, that you can identify by the sound of a cartridge, if you have an Antiskating or an Azimuth misalignment, if you have to adjust VTF or VTA, as the effects are quite close.

So I agree to Peter, this is far away from black art!

Next step of training is to develop concrete expectations of performance for dedicated Cart/Tonearm combinations
(and not to stop fine tuning before the sweet point is achieved)

finally it makes fun to understand certain gear better and to move to the next level

For example, I am just trying to understand the Kuzma Safir,
which is a great performing tonearm, but different in some areas of fine tuning.

 

[tima]

I look back at my 30+ years in the hobby and now realize that I must never have really reached the potential of the various systems I have had because of a lack of knowledge or experience with set up. It can make such a big difference to the quality of the listening experience.

While you may not have reached prior system full potential, I would not rule out your current system offering more discriminating feedback to your tuning efforts than previous gear.

 

[Amir]

Fabulous story Peter. I enjoyed every detail nd am tickled that you went with Lamm. As you know I too own the 3 Lamm Signature components and together the sound to my ears is as natural as it gets.

It was my owning the Lamm electronics that brought me to David as he and I were AFAIK the only Lamm Signature owners on WBF and I too made a one week pilgrimage to Cedar City to learn all about David's philosophy and that also changed my progress in the advancement of better sound from my system

I to have made changes rot my system that I never thought I would do and I too am a strong proponent of the inexpensive Ching Cheng power cords. I have them in my entire system except with my amps (which are 32 wpc) where I use MasterBuilt Ultra.

I so happy for you Peter. David IMO is truly one of the most knowledgeable audiophiles I have ever met. He helped me find my new listening chair but what I really credit David with is convincing me I can use my Wilson speakers with near field listening to take my room out of the equation. It took e years to finally come to grips that he was right. I won't ever listen as far back as I did my entire life.

I also know what you mean about straightening the speakers rather than toe in. This is all deja vu to me and a great lesson in ddk 101

Kudos and much enjoyment Peter and welcome to the Lamm club

proper setup big Wilsons are very very interesting to me

 

[Amir]

Lamm electronics aren’t hyped in frequency extremes like most other electronics and given their extreme resolution they will show up deficiencies of the rest of the system so proper setup is essential. There’s no fake air with Lamm so people aren’t used to this and/or their systems are heavily tuned with colored cables, footers, power cord, racks, conditioners etc., Lamm gear will work best in a minimalist setup, nothing dark or rolled off in their over all sound.

david

why we need expert Audiophiles and why we should ignore most magazine reviews (TAS/stereophile/6moon/...)?
because of only right/valid/true/trusted judgments can help us and wrong information will guide us to audio hell.

two thing is needed for right judgment :
1- properly setup transparent/reference system that is matched to tested equipment
2- expert/trained ears

after reading most audio magazines more than 20 years then I tell you all was waste of time.
I should thanks Romy, David, Clark Johnsen and all experts who spread trusted information .

I am not more than a student in audio world

 

[microstrip]

why we need expert Audiophiles and why we should ignore most magazine reviews (TAS/stereophile/6moon/...)?
because of only right/valid/true/trusted judgments can help us and wrong information will guide us to audio hell.

If we are not able to extract the good and valuable information from the naturally biased writings of reviewers it is surely better to ignore them. Also this hobby also involves entertainment and many of us enjoy reading about it.

two thing is needed for right judgment :
1- properly setup transparent/reference system that is matched to tested equipment
2- expert/trained ears

What do mean by expert/trained ears? WBF members ears?

after reading most audio magazines more than 20 years then I tell you all was waste of time.
I should thanks Romy, David, Clark Johnsen and all experts who spread trusted information .

Well, you get a biased version of a small part of the hobby from these people. If it matches your current preference, good for you.

I am not more than a student in audio world

As written in a famous book, stereo is an individual experience. The best thing we can learn concerning stereo is that we will be students forever in this hobby.

 

[Amir]

my emphasis

David, this is an area where I believe you provide tremendous value, not only to your customers but also to those of us who read what you have to say. Having the resources, the will, the years of experience and the aural insight, coupled with a desire to experiment, in bringing many differerent products together and then distilling great combinations, and then freely talking about that - it's something quite rare in the audio world. Add to that the opportunity to experience some of those products in combination goes well beyond talk - as you say one needs to have the direct experience to appreciate the differences. While many dealers work at similar, what is unique for you is a willingness to range across history, not being bound to current production models where the competition among manufacturers limits the lines a dealer may carry. I for one am happy you are willing to be direct and tell us your views on what you think is/are the best.

Thank you Tim !

Amir

 

[jeff1225]

why we need expert Audiophiles and why we should ignore most magazine reviews (TAS/stereophile/6moon/...)?
because of only right/valid/true/trusted judgments can help us and wrong information will guide us to audio hell.

two thing is needed for right judgment :
1- properly setup transparent/reference system that is matched to tested equipment
2- expert/trained ears

after reading most audio magazines more than 20 years then I tell you all was waste of time.
I should thanks Romy, David, Clark Johnsen and all experts who spread trusted information .

I am not more than a student in audio world

All of the names you mention here stopped listening to new audio equipment in the early 2000’s. If you want to know anything about new technologies (DAC, streaming, optical cartridges, class D amplification, etc) you need to also incorporate magazine reviews and shows.

 

[jeff1225]

Thank you Tim !

Amir

And what was best was also what he sold. Just another dealer. In the furnature world, some deal new and some deal antiques/vintage. No difference here.

 

[Rensselaer]

why we need expert Audiophiles and why we should ignore most magazine reviews (TAS/stereophile/6moon/...)?
because of only right/valid/true/trusted judgments can help us and wrong information will guide us to audio hell.

two thing is needed for right judgment :
1- properly setup transparent/reference system that is matched to tested equipment
2- expert/trained ears

after reading most audio magazines more than 20 years then I tell you all was waste of time.
I should thanks Romy, David, Clark Johnsen and all experts who spread trusted information .

I am not more than a student in audio world

IMHO, I would tend to agree with those magazines you listed, however I learned a lot from the early Sound Practices mags when they were in print.

 

[bonzo75]

IMHO, I would tend to agree with those magazines you listed, however I learned a lot from the early Sound Practices mags when they were in print.

well John Roberts and all knew their stuff

 

[Atmasphere]

IMHO, I would tend to agree with those magazines you listed, however I learned a lot from the early Sound Practices mags when they were in print.

Back then it was hard to display the distortion components made by an amplifier. Audio Precision changed that (although their equipment is a bit pricey...).

What is needed now, but is unlikely to happen, is correlation between what we see as the distortion spectra vs what we hear. Its been well known for some time that a 3rd harmonic can mask higher orders in loudspeakers; I've noticed that such is no different with amplifiers as well. The 2nd harmonic also has this property, and in both cases they need to be sufficient amplitude to do the job.

The system won't sound natural if its bright. Since the lower ordered harmonics (2nd and 3rd) are innocuous to the human ear, this is one way to prevent brightness. But to do so, those harmonics add to 'warmth'. So overall it appears that distortion really has to be kept down!

I've only done a small amount of research on this topic; it relates directly to what I do for a living. At this point I'm convinced that we can measure everything we need to (which wasn't possible in the 1980s) but we've not been active as a community drawing distinct lines between what we measure and what we hear. As a result, in my case I get castigated by both the subjectivist and objectiviest camps. The measurement guys hate the idea of something being audible and the 'just listen to it' guys hate that what they hear can be measured.

Both parties are guilty of Confirmation Bias. Pot, meet kettle sort of thing.

This has to stop if we are to make progress. I'm not holding my breath; I'm just doing my work on my own.

 

[PeterA]

Here is a video demonstrating the American Sound AS 2000 platter free spinning. I hand rotated the platter to about 40 RPM and waited for it to slow to 33.33 RPM and then started to record. The video shows the platter speed slowing and then eventually stopping.

This is the result of a very high mass platter on a very unique baring designed and executed to an exceptional standard. The result is superb speed control and silence.

Feel free to skip to the end. The video is long but one can see the effect of the changing light as the sun sets outside.

 

[Lagonda]

Here is a video demonstrating the American Sound AS 2000 platter free spinning. I hand rotated the platter to about 40 RPM and waited for it to slow to 33.33 RPM and then started to record. The video shows the platter speed slowing and then eventually stopping.

This is the result of a very high mass platter on a very unique baring designed and executed to an exceptional standard. The result is superb speed control and silence.

Feel free to skip to the end. The video is long but one can see the effect of the changing light as the sun sets outside.

I have about the same run down time on my air bearing Maplenoll. First time i did it i was somewhat surprised, and suspicious that maybe the air from the air holes is somehow contributing to the forward propulsion. It is amazing how long it takes to come to a full stop !