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Argonaut

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The Sati with massive GROUNDED bearing design went deeper in the bas, had much more body and all decays been easier to hear. All the Exotic bearings design just sounded THINNER, lighter and brighter.
I do not recognise this assertion where the Vyger Indian is concerned , quite the opposite , however Kedar would be better placed to comment in this regard.
 

PeterA

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"Bearings design like air, magnetic and Teflon bearings was every time beaten by the old GROUNDED ball bearing design.

The Sati with massive GROUNDED bearing design went deeper in the bas, had much more body and all decays been easier to hear. All the Exotic bearings design just sounded THINNER, lighter and brighter.

My former Micro Seiki 8000II is an air bearing design. The American Sound AS1000 and AS2000 are different. They are not air bearings in the same sense. They are quite unique.

I would not describe the exotic bearing design of my turntable as producing a thinner lighter and brighter sound. I think it is primarily responsible for lowering noise and the very low friction contributes to the high inertia.

It is just a different approach from what this other turntable has.
 

Salectric

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I had not heard of the Sati table before but it looks like a very interesting design. It has a number of design elements that are similar to my Galibier table although the Sati is executed on a more massive scale.

I would expect the Sati to sound very good indeed which is why I was surprised to read it fell out of favor with Audiophile Bill. From a post of his a couple years back he seemed quite pleased with the Sati.
 
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morricab

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Bill has owned both Vyger and Horning Sati, there is no comparison the Vyger was far superior. I won't generalize on the air bearings as the Bergmann is quite the opposite of Vyger so there are other elements to the sound
So, why is he still with the Horning then? Or is he using a Vyger now?
 

morricab

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I do not recognise this assertion where the Vyger Indian is concerned , quite the opposite , however Kedar would be better placed to comment in this regard.
I just commented on this because of the otherwise similarity to the AS2000 and the fact that Horning calls out that reduction of friction is not necessarily the most important aspect to a good sounding bearing.
 

gestalt

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Bill has owned both Vyger and Horning Sati, there is no comparison the Vyger was far superior. I won't generalize on the air bearings as the Bergmann is quite the opposite of Vyger so there are other elements to the sound
Did you hear the same arm on both?
 
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Lagonda

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Horning SATI TT (also a high mass, non-suspended design) has a different view on this:

"Bearings design like air, magnetic and Teflon bearings was every time beaten by the old GROUNDED ball bearing design.

The Sati with massive GROUNDED bearing design went deeper in the bas, had much more body and all decays been easier to hear. All the Exotic bearings design just sounded THINNER, lighter and brighter.

The high- end industry has been seduced by the friction of the bearing itself instead of the bearings influence of the turntables overall sound. If you measure the Sati with a Statoscope has it more noise than air, magnetic or Teflon bearing, but it is a completely stupid measurement because why make a bearing which in the end has lower sound quality."
Just the opinion of one tiny manufacturer, with a somewhat questionable reputation !
 

Argonaut

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I just commented on this because of the otherwise similarity to the AS2000 and the fact that Horning calls out that reduction of friction is not necessarily the most important aspect to a good sounding bearing.

Ahhhhh Gotch Now …

From the Vyger product blurb :

“ Atlantis IV Generation

The design and creation of the ATLANTIS turntable is the result of years of experimentation, study and research into the kinematic behaviour of the system as well as extensive listening tests and direct comparision with other world-famous machines. The ATLANTIS was constructed by people who love music.

Many new generation turntables have adopted a system of air suspension in order to eliminate noise and the wear caused by physical contact between the moving parts of the spindle and the thrust bearing, but the platter’s horizontal support mechanism has remained more or less of the traditional type with brass bearings or teflon supports.

Many new generation turntables have adopted a system of air suspension in order to eliminate noise and the wear caused by physical contact between the moving parts of the spindle and the thrust bearing, but the platter’s horizontal support mechanism has remained more or less of the traditional type with brass bearings or teflon supports.

The ATLANTIS represents a real step forward in the history of turntable design. For the first time contact between the spindle and the bearing assembly has been completely eliminated. By interposing a fine layer of compressed air between them and replacing the traditional thrust bearing with a vertical air cushion, friction has been almost totally eliminated, further increasing the turntable’s rotational stability and precision as well as drastically suppressing the various forms of vibration present in traditional systems.

The spindle is approximately 40mm in diameter, made of special martensitic stainless steel that has been hardened and stabilised and machined to tolerances of shape and position of less than one micron; the precision of the platter’s radio-axial rotation is approximately 1.5 microns. To date no other front end machine we have compared the ATLANTIS to has achieved results like these.
The suspension system has been designed to achieve natural stability of the subchassis. A complex system of horizontal-vertical anchorage employing 54 special rubber rings has made possible almost total isolation from external vibrations and low sensitivity to acoustic feedback.

A fluid viscous damper controls the lateral oscillations of the turntable and dissipates any remaining spurious vibrations.The suspended mass, including the tonearm, is finely balanced so that the centre of gravity falls at the centre of the platter spindle.
The total weight of the system is more than 70 kilos. The motor is completely isolated from its housing using the same system adopted for the sub-chassis and is manufactured to our specifications.”
 

bonzo75

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So, why is he still with the Horning then? Or is he using a Vyger now?

This is quite a specious argument trying to pull out a data point in a long journey. It has nothing to do with sonics and the whole reason is budget. Bill went through a journey where he put most of his funds in DIY, stockpiling on many drivers, including a very expensive AER BD4, for which he got funds from a good offer on the Vyger. He then cut back on his analogue, tried to replace the Vyger red sparrow with Bergmann SIndre Red Sparrow, then with SATI, all at good trade ins. It's been a 4 year journey, finally he saw a good offer on the Pnoe, for which he traded in the Mayer 46. So he finally has the speaker he wanted - the Pnoe with BD4. And that's been expensive. He now is running it with a 2ish k amp. His next journey, this year, is to get a great amp. Then, he will in a year or two after that, he would love to go in for the Vyger. Vyger is expensive. Like seriously expensive. This might be WBF, but everyone here is not Tang or Mike who will get the component they want in one big bang. These kind of outlays require some planning and many of us are reluctant to spend even where we know it is the component of choice. He also has to spend on expanding his room (front wall going back into the garden to create more space for speakers). The good thing is he knows the end sound as he has heard it before so there is no rush just a gradual spend, wastage on random wrong products will be minimal.
 
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bonzo75

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Did you hear the same arm on both?

Anyone who likes the Vyger does so because of the integrated package of Vyger arm on Vyger table. It will be pointless to compare it to another table with "same arm on both".
 
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Lagonda

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My former Micro Seiki 8000II is an air bearing design. The American Sound AS1000 and AS2000 are different. They are not air bearings in the same sense. They are quite unique.

I would not describe the exotic bearing design of my turntable as producing a thinner lighter and brighter sound. I think it is primarily responsible for lowering noise and the very low friction contributes to the high inertia.

It is just a different approach from what this other turntable has.
The difference the motor makes is substantial too ! :)
 
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morricab

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Just the opinion of one tiny manufacturer, with a somewhat questionable reputation !
questionable from the products or from the business practices? I was aware of some questionable business but the products seem to be quite solid.
 

morricab

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This is quite a specious argument trying to pull out a data point in a long journey. It has nothing to do with sonics and the whole reason is budget. Bill went through a journey where he put most of his funds in DIY, stockpiling on many drivers, including a very expensive AER BD4, for which he got funds from a good offer on the Vyger. He then cut back on his analogue, tried to replace the Vyger red sparrow with Bergmann SIndre Red Sparrow, then with SATI, all at good trade ins. It's been a 4 year journey, finally he saw a good offer on the Pnoe, for which he traded in the Mayer 46. So he finally has the speaker he wanted - the Pnoe with BD4. And that's been expensive. He now is running it with a 2ish k amp. His next journey, this year, is to get a great amp. Then, he will in a year or two after that, he would love to go in for the Vyger. Vyger is expensive. Like seriously expensive. This might be WBF, but everyone here is not Tang or Mike who will get the component they want in one big bang. These kind of outlays require some planning and many of us are reluctant to spend even where we know it is the component of choice. He also has to spend on expanding his room (front wall going back into the garden to create more space for speakers). The good thing is he knows the end sound as he has heard it before so there is no rush just a gradual spend, wastage on random trials will be minimal.
I was not making an argument...I was asking questions.
 
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bonzo75

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I was not making an argument...I was asking questions.

Fair enough, but wouldn't have said it so vehemently that Vyger is better if it was not. Would love to find a better cheaper table (to me there isn't a better more expensive one either but that's besides the point). I am no fan of admitting the expensive product is better unless it is, because there is no win there. The win is in finding a high value, or best, lower priced product. Same with records. Then everyone benefits.

But I Don't see the point of quoting any manufacturer's logic why his own design is better than the alternative
 

morricab

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This is quite a specious argument trying to pull out a data point in a long journey. It has nothing to do with sonics and the whole reason is budget. Bill went through a journey where he put most of his funds in DIY, stockpiling on many drivers, including a very expensive AER BD4, for which he got funds from a good offer on the Vyger. He then cut back on his analogue, tried to replace the Vyger red sparrow with Bergmann SIndre Red Sparrow, then with SATI, all at good trade ins. It's been a 4 year journey, finally he saw a good offer on the Pnoe, for which he traded in the Mayer 46. So he finally has the speaker he wanted - the Pnoe with BD4. And that's been expensive. He now is running it with a 2ish k amp. His next journey, this year, is to get a great amp. Then, he will in a year or two after that, he would love to go in for the Vyger. Vyger is expensive. Like seriously expensive. This might be WBF, but everyone here is not Tang or Mike who will get the component they want in one big bang. These kind of outlays require some planning and many of us are reluctant to spend even where we know it is the component of choice. He also has to spend on expanding his room (front wall going back into the garden to create more space for speakers). The good thing is he knows the end sound as he has heard it before so there is no rush just a gradual spend, wastage on random trials will be minimal.
I might add: He is not alone in not having unlimited funds for this hobby...
 

morricab

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Fair enough, but wouldn't have said it so vehemently that Vyger is better if it was not. Would love to find a better cheaper table (to me there isn't a better more expensive one either but that's besides the point). I am no fan of admitting the expensive product is better unless it is, because there is no win there. The win is in finding a high value, or best, lower priced product. Same with records. Then everyone benefits.

But I Don't see the point of quoting any manufacturer's logic why his own design is better than the alternative
Sure, but I wasn't saying anything at all about the Vyger...I was making the link between the AS2000 and Peter's long spinning platter and the SATI, which has a more traditional bearing but similar high mass concept and Horning's potentially controversial statements about bearings like the air or magnetic bearings. It was not MY statement on bearings....

I have heard the Vyger and it is excellent...haven't heard it in serious comparisons.
 

Lagonda

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questionable from the products or from the business practices? I was aware of some questionable business but the products seem to be quite solid.
Business practices ! But his marketing material is also peppered with a lot of lofty claims that are obviously just his own opinions.
 

djsina2

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My former Micro Seiki 8000II is an air bearing design. The American Sound AS1000 and AS2000 are different. They are not air bearings in the same sense. They are quite unique.

I would not describe the exotic bearing design of my turntable as producing a thinner lighter and brighter sound. I think it is primarily responsible for lowering noise and the very low friction contributes to the high inertia.

It is just a different approach from what this other turntable has.
So what is the AS design, approach, etc? Seems like even after hundreds of posts there are no details on this table from a technical standpoint, unless I missed it?
 

PeterA

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I just commented on this because of the otherwise similarity to the AS2000 and the fact that Horning calls out that reduction of friction is not necessarily the most important aspect to a good sounding bearing.

I actually see little similarity between the two turntable designs besides the massive platter. I’m not aware of anyone claiming that “the most important aspect of a good sounding bearing“ is low friction. I simply posted the video to demonstrate the inertia created by this particular design. I can say that the speed is very stable and that there is very low noise. I’m not claiming this is the most important aspect or the best example, just posting a video demonstration of one aspect of the design.

It is interesting to read the claims made by this manufacturer about the sound of his design and the assertion that all other bearing designs sound thin and lack ultimate bass extension. That is not my experience listening to the Micro Seiki or either American Sound table in my own system. I would be extremely surprised if he has heard either the original American sound turntable or the newer AS 2000. If he made such a direct comparison, it would be fascinating to hear how he would support or defend his assertions on bearing type and his claim for sonics. As I say, my turntable does not have a typical air bearing. Assembling, disassembling, and inspecting the bearings, and then directly comparing the sound of my Micro Seiki and the American Sound made the differences very clear, both in design, and sound. Both are at a very high level of execution.

EDIT: And as Salectric states below, sound quality depends on many things, and there are alternative approaches which sound good.
 
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Salectric

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Sound quality depends on the execution and not just a single design feature. There are many paths to achieve great sound from our vinyl records.
 
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