Natural Sound

[Lampie519]

You have to give yourself time to adjust to the "new" (terra incognita as i like to call it). That is why audio shows are not helping actually and only when you get the chance to get the stuff at you own place to listen to it for some time you can make a judgment of its quality.

So just blindly trusting someone elses experience does not help (including mine).

 

[wil]

Bill I think you really nailed the difference in sound. The Magico system is unnatural (Pam Anderson) and the Vitavox system is natural (Kate Upton). I know which ones I prefer.....

To me, the Magico does not sound "h-fi" (and all the associated perjoritives associated with that word.) It does sound "high fidelity" meaning to me clear, transparent and with a balanced presentation of frequencies.

My experiences of live acoustic music is overwhelmingly of ease, clarity and immediacy which is what I hear a hint of in the Magico vids.

 

[Lampie519]

Hifi sound (again my experience) does not "originate" in loudspeakers (bad sound maybe).

Hifi sound will originate in sources (mainly digital sources) and in preamplifiers. The further away from the source the less the system can be "infected".

 

[PeterA]

To me, the Magico does not sound "h-fi" (and all the associated perjoritives associated with that word.) It does sound "high fidelity" meaning to me clear, transparent and with a balanced presentation of frequencies.

My experiences of live acoustic music is overwhelmingly of ease, clarity and immediacy which is what I hear a hint of in the Magico vids.

Will, I made those videos with the Magico system at the culmination of two years worth of experiments in set up. I would not describe them as “Hifi” sounding either.

When I refer to my former system as hi-fi sounding, it was when I had all of the room treatments, the fancy power cords, the audiophile cables, overdamped gear supports, and very precise speaker toe in.

With each change in set up, the system started sounding more natural. I posted those videos originally in my other thread to demonstrate the improvements in sound.

Once I felt I had taken the system as far as I could, I thought the only way to go further along the path of natural sound was to consider new components. That’s when I ordered the new turntable, and then one thing led to another.

I understand why people like the last round of the Magico system videos. That was an excellent sounding system, IMO.

 

[jeff1225]

To me, the Magico does not sound "h-fi" (and all the associated perjoritives associated with that word.) It does sound "high fidelity" meaning to me clear, transparent and with a balanced presentation of frequencies.

My experiences of live acoustic music is overwhelmingly of ease, clarity and immediacy which is what I hear a hint of in the Magico vids.

“Ease” is a word I would never have associated with inefficient sealed boxed speakers that need 400 watts minimum to come alive. Hi fidelity....sure, but nothing is easy about a 2 ohm load.

Live music: 99% horn speakers. Best home systems I’ve heard: vintage horn speakers originally used for live music and cinema. Peter’s Vitavox speakers use pro-drivers in an enclosure made to be more pleasing in an indoor environment.

 

[Lampie519]

Transnova Twin 200 (old but gold)

First it has to be upgraded naturally by Nelson Pass to be any interesting now !

 

[bazelio]

Thank you Brian. I enjoyed that system for many years until I heard something I preferred. We all have preferences, and these can be heard on such videos, clearly.

Yes. Your audio pendulum has swung far to the opposite side in nearly one fell swoop. And the only thing that matters is that you're happy with the result. If you're enjoying the music, then mission accomplished. What I hear in the videos with the new system is a fraction of the musical information of the previous and a very vintage tone. I'm hearing a lack of drive and dynamics. Sounds are very homogenized. Both highs and lows are comparatively rolled off to me. And so for me, this doesn't equate to "natural" but to highly colored reproduction. Thus my personal current preference for the former, and desire to hear things again with the vdh carts in play. They may make the new system sing.

I remember you not liking the vdH Grand Cru at all. In this Magico system, it sounded very nice, IMO, and the overall sound improved quite dramatically with all of the set up experiments. I remember talking to you at length about the steel plates. Did you ever follow through with those in your system?

Metal plates were not the best option under each and every component in my system. I compared them to other expensive and inexpensive options, though. And other inexpensive options provided more musicality and easily won. The metal plate remained under my amplifier, however. It's particularly good there. And I have yet to try a plate under my TT, which is a bigger task. Audio hasn't been a primary focus in my life, though. I've been enjoying music and ignoring gear for many months since upgrading my amp. As to vdh carts, mine was a unique creation. A clearly different generator and cantilever than yours. I didn't care for it in my system. Without hearing yours, I have no idea if I'd like it or not.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I used to search for more: blacker backgrounds, more precise pin point imaging, more extension, tighter, faster bass with more slam. More air, more crisp and sparkly highs.

Not necessarily in your prior system, but, in general, for me this description is exactly what I think of as a Magico-type sound (other, I think, than the S5 Mk 2 and the S7 Mk 2). These attributes, taken further and further, do not lead me personally into a deeper emotional connection with my favorite music.

Also, for me personally, and not as a definitional matter of general applicability, I think of these kinds of discrete audiophile sonic attributes as comprising a "hi-fi" sound. This is not, to me, a "natural" sound.

 

[microstrip]

“Wanting to listen to” and actually hearing and owning are two different things. It is easy to want some ideal. It is difficult to find, hear, and own it.

Consider how many audiophiles continue to search. Being satisfied is enough until you hear something better. The reference is important.

Well, the main question in this hobby is that we create a reference and our reference is permanently moving. It happened to you and me before. Surely we can take a decision to stop changing gear and recordings, but it is a personnel decision. As I (and others) often say, stereo is an individual experience and the high-end is an hobby, not a religion.

I have no experience with the LP1, but still own the L2, the M1.2ref , the LL1 and the ML3. Considering the very large difference in performance between the first two and the others I find curious that you are not dreaming about the LP1 just because of the two shelves space.

 

[Folsom]

Yes. Your audio pendulum has swung far to the opposite side in nearly one fell swoop. And the only thing that matters is that you're happy with the result. If you're enjoying the music, then mission accomplished. What I hear in the videos with the new system is a fraction of the musical information of the previous and a very vintage tone. I'm hearing a lack of drive and dynamics. Sounds are very homogenized. Both highs and lows are comparatively rolled off to me. And so for me, this doesn't equate to "natural" but to highly colored reproduction. Thus my personal current preference for the former, and desire to hear things again with the vdh carts in play. They may make the new system sing.



Metal plates were not the best option under each and every component in my system. I compared them to other expensive and inexpensive options, though. And other inexpensive options provided more musicality and easily won. The metal plate remained under my amplifier, however. It's particularly good there. And I have yet to try a plate under my TT, which is a bigger task. Audio hasn't been a primary focus in my life, though. I've been enjoying music and ignoring gear for many months since upgrading my amp. As to vdh carts, mine was a unique creation. A clearly different generator and cantilever than yours. I didn't care for it in my system. Without hearing yours, I have no idea if I'd like it or not.

I suspect a little too much capacitance in cabling possibly. It does sound a bit light. But I'm not sure I'd go as far as to state much else.

 

[rbbert]

I used to search for more: blacker backgrounds, more precise pin point imaging, more extension, tighter, faster bass with more slam. More air, more crisp and sparkly highs.

I have come to realize that sometimes, less is more.

It sounds as if you were searching for artifacts, or perhaps (in the language of science) surrogate markers. I don't know for how many years you have been a music lover or audiophile, but IMHO it shouldn't have taken you as long as it did to realize that, especially with your often mentioned appreciation of live classical music. I'm sure there are others going down that same path, but as I posted before hopefully not too many here?

My experience after 50 or so years of pursuing better sound is that horns are certainly not the only or even the best way to go, but of course what is "natural sound" to one listener is not necessarily that to another.

 

[Lampie519]

No horns here... the frames of my Acoustats are going to be replaced (more sturdy frames) and if i get the chance a line array of ionic tweeters in the middle.

One's heaven is the other one's hell....

 

[Folsom]

It sounds as if you were searching for artifacts, or perhaps (in the language of science) surrogate markers. I don't know for how many years you have been a music lover or audiophile, but IMHO it shouldn't have taken you as long as it did to realize that, especially with your often mentioned appreciation of live classical music. I'm sure there are others going down that same path, but as I posted before hopefully not too many here?

My experience after 50 or so years of pursuing better sound is that horns are certainly not the only or even the best way to go, but of course what is "natural sound" to one listener is not necessarily that to another.

I don't understand what you're saying at all.

He's saying he isn't looking for those things, and they are not artifacts either. And artifact is not part of the music because it's not naturally part of where ever it is, by definition. Unnatural bass slam is an aberration, for example.

 

[KeithR]

Sean Casey calls it "hifi fireworks"

 

[Folsom]

Sean Casey calls it "hifi fireworks"

It's exactly how I'd describe the reissue 45rpm of Rumors...

 

[spiritofmusic]

I'd heard rumours it was like that.

 

[PeterA]

It sounds as if you were searching for artifacts, or perhaps (in the language of science) surrogate markers. I don't know for how many years you have been a music lover or audiophile, but IMHO it shouldn't have taken you as long as it did to realize that, especially with your often mentioned appreciation of live classical music. I'm sure there are others going down that same path, but as I posted before hopefully not too many here?

My experience after 50 or so years of pursuing better sound is that horns are certainly not the only or even the best way to go, but of course what is "natural sound" to one listener is not necessarily that to another.

I often say I have much to learn. This is only my personal system thread in which I am describing the process of this learning.

you seem to have much more knowledge and much more experience. Perhaps you should start your own system thread from which we can all learn something about what you think.

I completely agree with your comment that different people have different ideas about what “natural“ means. What I don’t understand, is why that is. Perhaps that is why people always return to The idea that this is only a hobby and the end goal is enjoyment through reaching one’s personal preferences.

 

[Lampie519]

Rock concert reference or concert hall reference... First row or in the back? Everyone has a different perspective of what is natural, but we all like to reach that point where we can get the same experience as we had when listening to a life concert or at least get the same emotions of that event (or imaginary event).

 

[PeterA]

Well, the main question in this hobby is that we create a reference and our reference is permanently moving. It happened to you and me before. Surely we can take a decision to stop changing gear and recordings, but it is a personnel decision. As I (and others) often say, stereo is an individual experience and the high-end is an hobby, not a religion.

I have no experience with the LP1, but still own the L2, the M1.2ref , the LL1 and the ML3. Considering the very large difference in performance between the first two and the others I find curious that you are not dreaming about the LP1 just because of the two shelves space.

Fransisco, I don’t think it is we who create a reference. We choose references that exist. If live music is your reference that exists. We do not create it. And as such it is not moving. It is stable. The challenge for me has been trying to get closer to that reference.

Is anyone claiming this hobby is a religion? I’m certainly not doing so and since you post that on my system thread you must be referring to me.

You do not seem to have heard the LL1 Signature and ML2 with appropriately matched speakers. If you then add in the LP 2.1 deluxe on a vinyl only system, you may begin to understand why I’m not dreaming about the much more expensive three parks LP1 Signature. Someone else asked me why I didn’t just get all three signature level components. Search comments say more about the one making the comments then the one to whom the suggestion is made. As you so very often say, this is a personal experience.

 

[Al M.]

I often say I have much to learn. This is only my personal system thread in which I am describing the process of this learning.

you seem to have much more knowledge and much more experience.

How do you come to that conclusion?