Natural Sound

[PeterA]

Yes; this is why I began my post with "not necessarily in your prior system . . . "

Yes I get that Ron, but the point I’m making is that people tend to generalize about Magico speakers instead of attributing the sound in part to the rest of the system and set up. I’ve heard my friend’s M pro with lots of different gear and cables and positioning and the system (or his speakers) always sounds different. The magico speakers may not be the issue, in my system and otherwise.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, the very things you say you wanted to get away from...pitch blacks, pin point imaging, etc...are the things that the non fans of Magico associate w the brand.

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

A gear question - do you currently own the LL1 or the LL1.1? You refer the LL1.1 in your posts and signature but your first photos show the LL1. Did you compare them anytime?

Sorry, I’m still getting familiar with the nomenclature. I have the LL1 Signature. Thank you for investigating my photographs and pointing out my error.

I think I heard the LL 1.1 at David’s but I did not compare them directly. Again, I followed David‘s advice about what to buy after talking about it for a week.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, the very things you say you wanted to get away from...pitch blacks, pin point imaging, etc...are the things that the non fans of Magico associate w the brand.

Understood, and they are free to disagree, but the whole point of me writing many many posts in my old thread over the last two years was an attempt to explain that I got rid of that stuff as my system moved towards a more natural sound and it did not have as much to do with the Magico speakers as you seem to conclude. In fact a couple friends who liked my Q3s did not like my system after I started making changes which is a clear indication to me that it was not the speakers.

I got rid of the pinpoint imaging by positioning the speakers straightahead. I lessened the homogeny of the black backgrounds when I removed the pneumatic isolation platforms from the system. I got rid of the sameness of presentation from different recordings when I got rid of my audiophile signal cables. I improved tone and body and weight when I replaced my fancy power cords with cheap Chinese vintage power cords. I don’t know what else to tell you. Those sonic attributes I discovered were not inherent to the speakers. it was all the other stuff I had and set up decisions.

What I’m trying to say Marc is that I lived with those speakers for three years and I’ve owned Magico for 10 years and the overall sound of the system changed a lot depending on set up and other gear. You should check out the thread I started about Magico having a brand sound and read more of my thoughts on the subject. It’s fine if you disagree with me findings and want to generalize.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, I'm not criticising you, very much the opposite. All I'm saying is that the upper echelon multi cone box spkrs, especially Magico, are famed for their ability to pin point image, provide super black backgrounds, provide sledgehammer bass etc etc. Indeed look at most of their promotional material and fanboy reviews...paragraph after paragraph praising the abundance of SQ framed by audiophile checklist terms, very much the narrative you're now opposed to.
None of those terms ever used in other topologies like Zu high efficiency/zero crossover/single, full range drivers.
And ditto with horns. The narrative here is flow, immediacy, cognitive ease, holistic music making.
Indeed for me, its these latter terms that most accurately encapsulate natural sound, and in my humble opinion only the best horns seems to cover these attributes across the board, and that's what's being confirmed in your current experience of the Vitavox's.
And as you know, what I'm hearing in my recent horns project experience at Audiophile Bill's.

 

[ACHiPo]

Here you go, Tango. You can listen to your wonderful system again at the office, and we benefit from you being back on WBF.

Carla White, new system:

Carla White, old system:

Scheherazade, new system:

Scheherazade, old system:

Finally got around to listening to this on my PC with a JBL monitor instead of my iPad speakers. First, it's pretty amazing the difference as recorded and played back. I'm sure it's not the same as being in the room, but again it's pretty impressive the difference detectable.

Second, I can understand based on the recording how the Magico system would be preferred. When I first heard the new system on my iPad, especially the Art Pepper track, I really loved it. Now I'll have to listen to both of the files on my iPad for further reflection.

Work, work, work!

 

[assessor43]

I used to search for more: blacker backgrounds, more precise pin point imaging, more extension, tighter, faster bass with more slam. More air, more crisp and sparkly highs.

I have come to realize that sometimes, less is more.

I honestly think it takes time and years of listening to real concerts to realize that real music does not sound like pinpoint imaging, tight fast bass and crisp sparkly highs.... it just does not. Thats a good observation and very true, to my ears at least.

 

[Lampie519]

I honestly think it takes time and years of listening to real concerts to realize that real music does not sound like pinpoint imaging, tight fast bass and crisp sparkly highs.... it just does not. Thats a good observation and very true, to my ears at least

When you step into a concert hall without music playing ... just beeing there.... the acoustics... the noise floor... hold that moment....if you get this in your home, it get's you goosebumps...

 

[microstrip]

Sorry, I’m still getting familiar with the nomenclature. I have the LL1 Signature. Thank you for investigating my photographs and pointing out my error.

I think I heard the LL 1.1 at David’s but I did not compare them directly. Again, I followed David‘s advice about what to buy after talking about it for a week.

I had looked at the printing of the wood boxes in your garden when you showed them and got the idea we had the same type of units - it is why I was now finding you had upgraded to LL1.1.

We can always say that the LL1 is better than the new version ... As far as I was told when I got the LL1 the sound differences are minimal and Valdimir Lamm upgraded in part my LL1 when he re-built it with new tube sockets.

 

[adyc]

Here you go, Tango. You can listen to your wonderful system again at the office, and we benefit from you being back on WBF.

Carla White, new system:

Carla White, old system:

Scheherazade, new system:

Scheherazade, old system:

Late to the party. I much prefer Magico sound. Vitavox sound is much thinner and hollow. Magico sound has fuller body and more immediacy. Maybe the Magico sound is not natural. But I definitely have more enjoyment listening these two tracks from Magico.

 

[Al M.]

I honestly think it takes time and years of listening to real concerts to realize that real music does not sound like pinpoint imaging, tight fast bass and crisp sparkly highs.... it just does not. Thats a good observation and very true, to my ears at least.

In general I agree, but it depends. Pinpoint imaging, indeed never. Yes, if you sit within the circle where direct sound still supersedes reflected sound, which is close to the players, you can precisely localize musicians just by ear. But these are still comparatively large "images", and "pinpoint" this is not.

Yet tight fast bass, that depends. Stand-up bass has a certain roundness that hardly can be described as "fast" bass, but electric bass guitar can sound pretty tight. A drum set can sound incredibly tight live, whereas I would say for large orchestral bass drum views on the sound can differ. There is a certain deep roundness to the sound, but at the same time it can have a sudden, tight, powerful impact. So what is it, tight or not tight? Debatable.

Sparkling highs? That depends as well, or is debatable. High-pitched metallic percussion even in a rather dampened orchestral hall can ring through with incredible HF energy, while at the same time a lot of other instruments (including the violin section) may not have a "sparkle" in such a dampened hall acoustic. But that may also depend on where you sit in the hall. Yet is the sound of the high-pitched metallic percussion "sparkling"? Certainly not in the sense of a "thin" tizzy treble as you hear from some high end systems. Real treble is mostly "thick".

 

[tima]

Simply. He stated so and I take him at his word. I do not know enough to presume otherwise. It’s also Saturday morning, it’s a beautiful day out, and I’m in a good mood listening to music.

Smile.

Another forum homily: If one is tempted to write a snarky response, stop, listen to Beethoven' Pastoral Symphony ... and then comment.

 

[Lagonda]

Smile.

Another forum homily: If one is tempted to write a snarky response, stop, listen to Beethoven' Pastoral Symphony ... and then comment.

And after some contemplation your snarky response will be more eloquent, have more humor, and sufficient double meaning to actually pass the moderators scrutiny !

 

[bonzo75]

And after some contemplation your snarky response will be more eloquent, have more humor, and sufficient double meaning to actually pass the moderators scrutiny !

Nothing passes our moderator's scrutiny, because he does not listen to Pastoral. Maybe after his system is up

 

[tima]

Nothing passes our moderator's scrutiny, because he does not listen to Pastoral. Maybe after his system is up

On those qualifications you could be a moderator too!

 

[Chop]

Peter, I'm not criticising you, very much the opposite. All I'm saying is that the upper echelon multi cone box spkrs, especially Magico, are famed for their ability to pin point image, provide super black backgrounds, provide sledgehammer bass etc etc. Indeed look at most of their promotional material and fanboy reviews...paragraph after paragraph praising the abundance of SQ framed by audiophile checklist terms, very much the narrative you're now opposed to.
None of those terms ever used in other topologies like Zu high efficiency/zero crossover/single, full range drivers.
And ditto with horns. The narrative here is flow, immediacy, cognitive ease, holistic music making.
Indeed for me, its these latter terms that most accurately encapsulate natural sound, and in my humble opinion only the best horns seems to cover these attributes across the board, and that's what's being confirmed in your current experience of the Vitavox's.
And as you know, what I'm hearing in my recent horns project experience at Audiophile Bill's.

What Mark said (my bold).

 

[Chop]

I go to a lot of chamber music concerts. These are open seating, basically pay the same and sit where you like, and the hall has very good acoustics. I can usually get row 1 or 2, which means about 12 feet from the performers. This is natural sound, and its incredibly dynamic, you can feel the low frequencies the tonality (OF COURSE, stating the obvious) is amazing. But it isn't pinpoint imaging even under this situation and at this distance.
I listen to about 50% non classical and while sledgehammer dynamics & pinpoint imaging are fun it sure aint real or natural, and we're deluding ourselves if we think that particular sound is. Just depends what you want.

 

[bonzo75]

I go to a lot of chamber music concerts. These are open seating, basically pay the same and sit where you like, and the hall has very good acoustics. I can usually get row 1 or 2, which means about 12 feet from the performers. This is natural sound, and its incredibly dynamic, you can feel the low frequencies the tonality (OF COURSE, stating the obvious) is amazing. But it isn't pinpoint imaging even under this situation and at this distance.
I listen to about 50% non classical and while sledgehammer dynamics & pinpoint imaging are fun it sure aint real or natural, and we're deluding ourselves if we think that particular sound is. Just depends what you want.

Since you are in London, where is this? St Martin's has some open seating.

 

[tima]

Fransisco, I don’t think it is we who create a reference. We choose references that exist. If live music is your reference that exists. We do not create it. And as such it is not moving. It is stable. The challenge for me has been trying to get closer to that reference.

This is the difference between the naturalist and the synthesist. The former takes their reference, the latter makes their own.

Edit: Chop draws the distinction well:

I go to a lot of chamber music concerts. These are open seating, basically pay the same and sit where you like, and the hall has very good acoustics. I can usually get row 1 or 2, which means about 12 feet from the performers. This is natural sound, and its incredibly dynamic, you can feel the low frequencies the tonality (OF COURSE, stating the obvious) is amazing. But it isn't pinpoint imaging even under this situation and at this distance.
I listen to about 50% non classical and while sledgehammer dynamics & pinpoint imaging are fun it sure aint real or natural, and we're deluding ourselves if we think that particular sound is. Just depends what you want.

 

[bonzo75]

This is the difference between the naturalist and the synthesist. The former takes their reference, the latter makes their own.

Lagonda used to hang out at naturalist beaches