Natural Sound

(...)
I am trying to gauge the importance you placed on the reviews with your decision to purchase the amplifier. I listened to all my gear in my system knowing that I could return all of it if it did not suit. I only started reading reviews of the Lamm gear after I made the decision to own it, but spending a week in Utah listening to it or very similar models give me a pretty good idea of its capabilities.

I am honored you consider relevant the importance of reviews in my decisions. Anyway I expressed it several times in WBF - I read them for information and entertainment, weighting them significantly with my knowledge of the reviewer preferences and his previous reviews, particularly including his reviews of gear I know well and his career. BTW, I only consider a review that has minimum size and shows significant analysis. No way I accept their endorsements - yes, we all know they would love to retire wit the gear they are reviewing and their wives loved it.

As I often said, when I am not able to listen carefully or at home I buy used gear in excellent condition, hoping to sell it if I later I do not want to keep it at a reduced loss. I did the same with all the Lamm's I got, unfortunately I did not realize at that time they were so difficult to sell, even at an high discount. No problem, if no one wants them I will sell the VTL's and cj's, keeping the LL1/ML3.

My relation with gear is cold, not emotional, although sometimes it is difficult to isolate the good personnel relations I have with distributors and people in the industry from their gear. o_O

BTW, the exception to my rules was the Audio Research Anniversary preamplifier - I got the first unit to come in my country before it was demoed, but nowhere I say I want to be buried with it! I had large experience with the XLF and DCS Vivaldi before buying them new.
 
Listening to your new system video. The above I think mostly come from the Lamm electronics. The Lamm somehow punctuated sound from each instruments uniquely making lively more believable sound.
The tone of the new system is a little retro "too" easy on the ear for me. (This is not from the Lamm.) But hey this is from the guy who can tolerate what most people cant playing VdH. Nonetheless, I would not go so far as Bazilio said tone is so round off up and down no differentiation. But I get what he meant. A change in cartridge and speaker cable could tune to my liking. Adyc mentioned about hollow sound. I might misinterpret his meaning but for me I like that hollow sound coming from the recording venue reflecting the ambient volume and quietness when say flute or solo violin takes turn in Scheherazade. Hollowness gives me better feeling of recording hall. I think both systems are great enough for me to enjoy and swing along music. Great great value if anyone just copy and construct the system for the first time not having to spend so much to go through learning curve to get there.

Tang, I appreciate the comments. The learning curve came from the prior system and the visit to Utah.

I also like a hollowness to hollow wooden instruments like standup bass and drums. If those instruments sound solid something is wrong with the system. Hall ambiance and information in general is also more evident with the new system.

The system is still being fine-tuned and will continue to change. Not everyone likes or is comfortable with what I am referring to as natural sound. I understand that.
 
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There is limbic listening where where the mind is not focused but taking in the whole. And imo this is where Lamm components facilitate this perception - a quality of the Lamm sound. They draw attention neither to themselves nor to specific sonic (as opposed to musical) characteristics. They deliver a holistic musical presentation, which is no focus at all.
We can say the same about many other brands having different sound signatures, if properly used. Our mind will focus on what we train it to focus.

Any sound reproduction is a compromise between specific focus and the holistic presentation. Speakers and their setup play a major part in our system in this balance.

Again IMHO this type of argumentation focuses in the listeners preferences, not on the sound characteristics of equipment. We learn a lot reading from other people opinions on equipment, it would be interesting to analyses why you think that Lamm "facilitate the perception" in terms of sonic signature . I found that M. Fremer said a lot in his review of the ML3 with a single word "hypnotic", after he described how it really sounded in his opinion.
Fransisco, Did M. Fremer distinguish between the sound of the ML3 in isolation (ie from hearing it with a variety of systems) versus the sound he heard through his one system when using the ML3?

What does he describe as “hypnotic”, the sound of the amp or the sound of the music coming through his system when he used the amps? And was the music hypnotic or was the system sound hypnotic? IMO, your summation of his comment leads to more confusion than to learning.
The discussion on Lamm products in this forum did not start with your finding of "Natural Sound - it has been lasting for long, and has been very interesting. My post is a direct answer to Tim post, I hope he comments on its content soon. IMHO the subject is very interesting and Tim is a very experienced listener.

Micro - I'll first respond by quoting myself from three Lamm component reviews across12 years. I gathered these as I contemplated responding to you. What I found in my writings is a (somewhat) remarkable consistency that speaks to your question. For those tired of my self-quotes, skip this to below the line that marks them off, or bypass this post.

Soundstage 2009: "Straight from the box, first LP, first CD, the Lamm LL2.1 Deluxe delivered an immediate connection to my music, rivaling the best I’ve heard in terms of listening enjoyment. Was it perfect? No -- and I’ll talk about some of that. Were musicians in the room with me? No. Rather, the LL2.1 was both disarming and engaging; it connected my heart and my brain through my ear. On first hearing, I let out an audible Ahhh . . . I knew it and felt it: This one was very right."

"Hear the tremolo violins at the start of Bruckner’s Seventh Symphony, as performed by the Vienna Philharmonic under the thoughtful direction of Karl Böhm (CD, Deutsche Grammophon 419 858-2). The LL2.1 conjured these strings as gossamer delicacies, light as air. Yet they were substantial, possessed of a shifting tonal density of expression that served as the perfect foil for the cellos carving the opening theme. Bruckner paints with a sweeping lyrical brush, and hearing his music through the LL2.1 enhanced my appreciation for this work. The Lamm line stage didn’t emphasize outlined image specificity, although if I concentrated -- breaking the gestalt, as it were -- instrumental images were clear, and the movement of musical lines across sections was easy to follow.

"Perhaps the highest compliment I can pay the Lamm LL2.1 Deluxe is to say that, after I came to know it, I didn’t want to review it -- I just wanted to hear music through it. By the end of my listening sessions, the audiophile words tended to fall away."

The Audio Beat 2015 "From track one, I found the M1.2 Reference engaging, lifelike, and disarming. The amp caused me immediately to connect to my music, rivaling the best I’ve heard in terms of overall enjoyment. I kept putting down my reviewer’s notepad and losing myself in the sound. Just one more tune, just one more shot of musical heroin -- I’ll just hear this one and get down to business. Hours vanished."

"If you ask him about assessing sound quality, Vladimir will tell you first that "It is important ... to know how the real orchestra sounds. We choose a reference point based on live music and compare to this point," then, once so prepared, "the problem of sound-quality assessment is almost completely solved in the first 10-15 seconds of listening at the intuitive level."

The experience we have listening to music at that "intuitive level" is rooted in primitive limbic functions of awareness -- deep in our lizard brain. McGill University scientists observed that consonance and dissonance will light up the limbic systems responsible for pleasurable and negative emotions appropriately. The non-cognitive experience of music can trigger areas in the brain sufficient to cause the release of endorphins; when they reach the limbic system’s opioid receptors, feelings of satisfaction ensue."

Positive Feedback 202O "The Lamm LP2.1 is a big picture phono stage. It does not have an analytical cast that pulls perception into audiophilic focus on this or that sonic feature. Its sound is integrative, holistic, if you will. Holistic—that's a rather fuzzy word—it reflects my listening experience as more than a bundle of audiophile adjectives. Consider this: if you break a piece of music into brief phrases, the basic elements are dynamics, timing, and tonality. Take any of those away and the phrase is gone. The sound of the LP2.1 does not encourage doing this. Its focus is the whole musical presentation, which is no focus at all."


Francisco: "We can say the same about many other brands having different sound signatures, if properly used. Our mind will focus on what we train it to focus."

We have a will and can be intentional. I agree we can direct our mind, that we can choose to focus. However, drawing on direct experiential evidence I disagree that this is what happened to me when I first heard the above Lamm components. It was not intentional; it was not a "preference" or a choice.

Something personal. I believe I have the ability to observe myself while I am engaged in an activity. I can observe and be aware of my thoughts and emotive reactions while I have them - either concurrently or upon reflection. Doing so is often not something I choose to do. I speculate that most of us can do this.

As part of my reviewing habit, when I first listen to a new component in my system my intent is to listen to music, my intent is not to go looking for anything specific. I want to have an undirected initial experience, then try to observe my reactions and impressions for that first and subsequent two or three listening sessions - before analysis. Now it can be relatively easy for that component (in my system) to swerve my music listening experience and cause me to think about some sonic characteristic. For example, peaky or screechy high notes from trumpets or violins will do it. It's an easy test - do you get to listen to music or does the gear make you think about itself.

Francisco: "it would be interesting to analyses why you think that Lamm "facilitate the perception" in terms of sonic signature."

Without needing to rely on memory, what I find in my own published writings is a consistent reaction to each reviewed Lamm component. (I have similar experiences with other Lamm components in my notes, but as yet unpublished.) My experience or reaction was not a function of preference. Contra your hypothesis I'm describing these components as causative agents - my reaction to them was not a choice or a product of "training." So yes, Lamm components "facilitate the perception."

minor: You claim something to the effect that "many other brands" facilitate similar experience. First, back that up by listing four or five (many) other brands of electronics that cause something similar. You use the somewhat weasily phrase "if used properly." It's weasily because one can always fall back to saying "well the expected response did not occur because it was not used properly." Have conviction in your response. :)
 
Jeff, this summarizes well one of the main differences between the Vitavox and Magico speakers. There is an ease to the former. Music just flows forth freely. That manifests itself in a few ways. There is a effortlessness to the sound. Dynamic contrasts and subtle nuances are more apparent. Timbre seems more accurate. The tonal palette is richer and it is easier to be drawn into the music. Perhaps most importantly, the presentation just is rather than being forced. The listener is more relaxed rather than stressed.

I am sure a lot can also be said about differences in amplification requirements and how that affects the sound, but I don’t really have the experience to talk about that.
Do you think you could find a refurbished pair of 57's to plug in?
 
Do you think you could find a refurbished pair of 57's to plug in?

Actually a good friend says he has a pair but has not used them in many years. Having heard my new system twice, he is now searching for a pair of Vitavoxs. I’ll ask him if he wants to drag them out of storage. Not sure my SETs will work.
 
Not sure my SETs will work
Test them first using a (MicroZotl) headphone amp ! This should work just fine...No back aches at least...
 
Edit- The biggest difference between top vintage horns and your speakers is bass quality, you need to listen to Peter's videos for something else besides the phone to hear that properly.

david
Naturally, that would apply to any recording of any speaker. I hear a vast sonic difference between the Magico/Pass system and the Vitavox/Lamm system in Peter's recordings. Whichever sound anyone may prefer, or think "better" or more "natural", I doubt the delta between the two systems would be any different listening through ear buds or high quality headphones.
 
Naturally, that would apply to any recording of any speaker. I hear a vast sonic difference between the Magico/Pass system and the Vitavox/Lamm system in Peter's recordings. Whichever sound anyone may prefer, or think "better" or more "natural", I doubt the delta between the two systems would be any different listening through ear buds or high quality headphones.
Of course there are a lot differences between Peter's videos but my comment was specifically for @Tango who also owns a Lamm/Horn system too. Bass quality of vintage speakers is something I've talked to him before about and Peter's videos are a good representation of it.

david
 
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Actually a good friend says he has a pair but has not used them in many years. Having heard my new system twice, he is now searching for a pair of Vitavoxs. I’ll ask him if he wants to drag them out of storage. Not sure my SETs will work.
The ESLs would be fabulous with the Lamms. I run mine-when I pull them out- with a Wyetech SET at 18wpc. Both the Lamm and the Wyetech are not power supply challenged.

Or.......... you can just have fun with what you have!
 
Micro - I'll first respond by quoting myself from three Lamm component reviews across12 years. I gathered these as I contemplated responding to you. What I found in my writings is a (somewhat) remarkable consistency that speaks to your question. For those tired of my self-quotes, skip this to below the line that marks them off, or bypass this post.

Soundstage 2009: "Straight from the box, first LP, first CD, the Lamm LL2.1 Deluxe delivered an immediate connection to my music, rivaling the best I’ve heard in terms of listening enjoyment. Was it perfect? No -- and I’ll talk about some of that. Were musicians in the room with me? No. Rather, the LL2.1 was both disarming and engaging; it connected my heart and my brain through my ear. On first hearing, I let out an audible Ahhh . . . I knew it and felt it: This one was very right."

"Hear the tremolo violins at the start of Bruckner’s Seventh Symphony, as performed by the Vienna Philharmonic under the thoughtful direction of Karl Böhm (CD, Deutsche Grammophon 419 858-2). The LL2.1 conjured these strings as gossamer delicacies, light as air. Yet they were substantial, possessed of a shifting tonal density of expression that served as the perfect foil for the cellos carving the opening theme. Bruckner paints with a sweeping lyrical brush, and hearing his music through the LL2.1 enhanced my appreciation for this work. The Lamm line stage didn’t emphasize outlined image specificity, although if I concentrated -- breaking the gestalt, as it were -- instrumental images were clear, and the movement of musical lines across sections was easy to follow.

"Perhaps the highest compliment I can pay the Lamm LL2.1 Deluxe is to say that, after I came to know it, I didn’t want to review it -- I just wanted to hear music through it. By the end of my listening sessions, the audiophile words tended to fall away."

The Audio Beat 2015 "From track one, I found the M1.2 Reference engaging, lifelike, and disarming. The amp caused me immediately to connect to my music, rivaling the best I’ve heard in terms of overall enjoyment. I kept putting down my reviewer’s notepad and losing myself in the sound. Just one more tune, just one more shot of musical heroin -- I’ll just hear this one and get down to business. Hours vanished."

"If you ask him about assessing sound quality, Vladimir will tell you first that "It is important ... to know how the real orchestra sounds. We choose a reference point based on live music and compare to this point," then, once so prepared, "the problem of sound-quality assessment is almost completely solved in the first 10-15 seconds of listening at the intuitive level."

The experience we have listening to music at that "intuitive level" is rooted in primitive limbic functions of awareness -- deep in our lizard brain. McGill University scientists observed that consonance and dissonance will light up the limbic systems responsible for pleasurable and negative emotions appropriately. The non-cognitive experience of music can trigger areas in the brain sufficient to cause the release of endorphins; when they reach the limbic system’s opioid receptors, feelings of satisfaction ensue."

Positive Feedback 202O "The Lamm LP2.1 is a big picture phono stage. It does not have an analytical cast that pulls perception into audiophilic focus on this or that sonic feature. Its sound is integrative, holistic, if you will. Holistic—that's a rather fuzzy word—it reflects my listening experience as more than a bundle of audiophile adjectives. Consider this: if you break a piece of music into brief phrases, the basic elements are dynamics, timing, and tonality. Take any of those away and the phrase is gone. The sound of the LP2.1 does not encourage doing this. Its focus is the whole musical presentation, which is no focus at all."


Francisco: "We can say the same about many other brands having different sound signatures, if properly used. Our mind will focus on what we train it to focus."

We have a will and can be intentional. I agree we can direct our mind, that we can choose to focus. However, drawing on direct experiential evidence I disagree that this is what happened to me when I first heard the above Lamm components. It was not intentional; it was not a "preference" or a choice.

Something personal. I believe I have the ability to observe myself while I am engaged in an activity. I can observe and be aware of my thoughts and emotive reactions while I have them - either concurrently or upon reflection. Doing so is often not something I choose to do. I speculate that most of us can do this.

As part of my reviewing habit, when I first listen to a new component in my system my intent is to listen to music, my intent is not to go looking for anything specific. I want to have an undirected initial experience, then try to observe my reactions and impressions for that first and subsequent two or three listening sessions - before analysis. Now it can be relatively easy for that component (in my system) to swerve my music listening experience and cause me to think about some sonic characteristic. For example, peaky or screechy high notes from trumpets or violins will do it. It's an easy test - do you get to listen to music or does the gear make you think about itself.

Francisco: "it would be interesting to analyses why you think that Lamm "facilitate the perception" in terms of sonic signature."

Without needing to rely on memory, what I find in my own published writings is a consistent reaction to each reviewed Lamm component. (I have similar experiences with other Lamm components in my notes, but as yet unpublished.) My experience or reaction was not a function of preference. Contra your hypothesis I'm describing these components as causative agents - my reaction to them was not a choice or a product of "training." So yes, Lamm components "facilitate the perception."

minor: You claim something to the effect that "many other brands" facilitate similar experience. First, back that up by listing four or five (many) other brands of electronics that cause something similar. You use the somewhat weasily phrase "if used properly." It's weasily because one can always fall back to saying "well the expected response did not occur because it was not used properly." Have conviction in your response. :)
Tim,

It would be much easier to answer if you used the standard WBF quoting scheme. Otherwise it becomes a confusion, as you wrote in bold mine and your comments. But I will try to answer in an unique post. Please note that I am not specifically addressing your personnel way of listening or reviewing style, just the general trends in the hobby.

Anyway quoting yourself was unnecessary - Lamm and other brands has been referred as holistic previously several times long before your first quote. Paul Bolin, for example used it in his review of the Lamm M1.1 in 2004, David Robinson in 2006. Many reviewers use this word frequently to describe the equipment they are reviewing - Jonhatan Valin for example finds most equipment "holistic", Harry Pearson wrote essays on it decades ago. You also used it on the Monaco turntable. It is one more abused word - manufacturers and dealers love it. But yes, the "Natural Sound" community in WBF seems to be discovering it ... ;)

I have found systems including electronics from Audio Research, conrad Jonhson, Nagra or vintage Mark Levinsion that gave me holistic type of experiences. In my system, the Aida's used with Audio Research and Kalista Metronome, or the XLF with the Audio Research REF Anniversary /Siegfried. I have outlined some of them briefly in WBF, usually referring to specific recordings. I find the the proper distribution of subjetive power density in the soundstage helps this feeling. The WAMM experience was surely one of them, but perhaps because of the novelty of freedom of sound reproduction artifacts everywhere in the soundstage and performers.

"Properly used" does not note lack of conviction, it is a way of respectfully saying" in my experience and opinion, using the proper sources, cables and setup." Something that many people who know it all fail to understand in their hate/love opinions.

BTW, should we think that the systems from Marty, John Frech or Mark Lavigne (just three of our members that have systems from brands I know well and do not own Lamm) do not give an holistic musical presentation to their owners?
 
The ESLs would be fabulous with the Lamms. I run mine-when I pull them out- with a Wyetech SET at 18wpc. Both the Lamm and the Wyetech are not power supply challenged.

Or.......... you can just have fun with what you have!

Thanks. I will encourage my friend to set up his speakers and I’ll enjoy what I have.
 
I honestly think it takes time and years of listening to real concerts to realize that real music does not sound like pinpoint imaging, tight fast bass and crisp sparkly highs.... it just does not. Thats a good observation and very true, to my ears at least.
Depends on how close you sit to the performers...if you sit close like a lot of recordings position the microphones...you will have clear imaging, powerful dynamics and sparkly sound (but rarely harsh).
 
That’s a good question. I have been listening to classical music most of my life as well as jazz in live settings. I think it’s only been in the last couple of years that I began to understand what it was I was hearing. That is ironic because I haven’t heard live music in the last year or so.

It took me a long time to identify and separate what I imagined live music to sound like from what I was actually hearing both from live music and from audio systems. This process started when I listened to an audiophile acquaintance speaking in my listening room with my eyes shut.

That was a turning point to my understanding of how I perceive sound. A long series of experiments followed and then exposure to systems that presented the music differently.

I am still learning and have a lot more to understand. At least now I know more about what to listen for.
Once you "get" what makes live sound live, it starts to direct your decisions and they can, in the here and now, move only one or two ways... All of my friends have been steadily moving that way over the years...all of them and most are live music lovers.
 
Rock concert reference or concert hall reference... First row or in the back? Everyone has a different perspective of what is natural, but we all like to reach that point where we can get the same experience as we had when listening to a life concert or at least get the same emotions of that event (or imaginary event).
I loved my Acoustats (had three pairs, plus Audio Statics and Stax ELS F81)...just love my horns even more....
 
Kingrex, your experience mirrors mine. I am really enjoying the tube/horn system. I also like the vintage MM cartridge. I highly doubt my friends Al and Madfloyd will change from their current paths, but that is fine and I have no interest in converting anyone. People can and should enjoy whatever they want.

Regarding volume levels, I will say that I am more satisfied with lower volumes in the new system than I was with the old system, but I play the systems at about the same level most of the time. The new system does not need the volume to come alive because there is so much resolution at low volumes with the high efficiency, mostly dynamics, but information levels too. The new system sounds louder because there is more dynamic swing/headroom and it plays cleaner at all frequency levels.

Another factor, and one that I have been noticing with the different cartridges, is the presentation differs in terms of nuance. My friends describe the sound as "vintage" with the MM. I do not know exactly what they mean, but the MM is more nuanced, more shadings in energy, where the high output MC is a bit more forced sounding and one notices the bass and treble a bit more. Both are good, and different listeners will prefer one to the other, but the subject of nuance and shadings, is a fascinating one. It is more apparent with the new tube/horn system.

The analogy I use is that some systems present the music with both a feather and a whip, while other systems/components/setups present the music with a hammer most of the time.
Did you ever actually measure SPL? I would not be surprised if you were actually listening louder now but that it sounds quieter due to the significnatly lower distortion the drivers produce because they are barely having to move to make the SPL you like. Distortion is an indication of loudness and the need to "turn it down" if it is really loud but clean you might not get that signal.
 
MadFloyd and Al M. came over today to hear my new system. We had a nice dinner outside overlooking the ocean. It was almost as if things are starting to return to normal. Ian had heard the system before, but not with my new vintage Technics MM cartridge. Al heard it for the first time and wants to come back to hear it with the vdH Colibri Grand Cru. Al sent over a list of requested LPs ahead of time. Ian brought some of his own.

Like old times but with a new system:

View attachment 77678
Interesting you are using a MM cart. I also often use an MM (Audio Technica AT150MLX) because I found it to sound more dynamic than the MCs I have or had in the past.
 
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Interesting you are using a MM cart. I also often use an MM (Audio Technica AT150MLX) because I found it to sound more dynamic than the MCs I have or had in the past.

This Tecnics EMC205CMK3 MM was carefully selected by DDK to work well in this particular system after we spoke about my sound preferences. It is an excellent cartridge. Some of my friends really love it and others find it a little bit “vintage” sounding. The presentation is very nuanced and natural if not the last word in ultimate resolution. I really like it and I don’t miss the resolution when I’m listening to it. Music just flows out of the speakers.
 
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Did you ever actually measure SPL? I would not be surprised if you were actually listening louder now but that it sounds quieter due to the significnatly lower distortion the drivers produce because they are barely having to move to make the SPL you like. Distortion is an indication of loudness and the need to "turn it down" if it is really loud but clean you might not get that signal.

I have measured SPL and I am listening at slightly louder levels or if the level is the same it sounds a bit quieter. It is definitely lower distortion. I used to listen to music a little bit less loudly then do some of my friends, but now it is perhaps the same or at least closer. I can listen to this system for hours on end without any fatigue.
 
I honestly think it takes time and years of listening to real concerts to realize that real music does not sound like pinpoint imaging, tight fast bass and crisp sparkly highs.... it just does not.

Or, play an acoustic instrument. If you come to listen to live music from listening to stereos, there is a lot to unlearn. :)
 

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