Natural Sound

[microstrip]

I don't need to quote Valin, Harry Pearson or my friend Paul Bolin to make my own points which your reply managed to miss entirely.

No, Paul Bolin made your point, IMHO Valin and Harry Pearson did not. Anyway, everyone is "holistic" now a days.

Btw, could you point me to your WBF Style Guide?

Just quoting you like I am doing now. Answering to your long and interesting post #524 was impossible - quotes removed the bold and the post become incomprehensible, mixing your sentences and mine in a cahos. I gave up and lost most of my text.

 

[the sound of Tao]

No, Paul Bolin made your point, IMHO Valin and Harry Pearson did not. Anyway, everyone is "holistic" now a days.

Just quoting you like I am doing now. Answering to your long and interesting post #524 was impossible - quotes removed the bold and the post become incomprehensible, mixing your sentences and mine in a cahos. I gave up and lost most of my text.

Francisco the quote formatting wouldn’t be an issue if you understood Tim holistically rather than trying to break his post into it’s component parts... atomising thoughts leads you to hearing Tim in a more analytical frame rather than allowing the overall spirit and intention of Tim’s response to digest in a more whole and natural way.

As in a judicial finding it is perhaps the overall intention and not every word that carries the whole message.

 

[PeterA]

No, Paul Bolin made your point, IMHO Valin and Harry Pearson did not. Anyway, everyone is "holistic" now a days.

Here is some thing that Tim wrote in his review of the LP 2.1 deluxe phonostage. It describes very well my experience with the same phono stage in my system. I do not see the term “holistic”. What I do see is a reference to the actual sound one hears in the concert hall making his words, for those who reference live acoustic music to assess the sound of audio systems or individual components, quite relevant.

This also touches on the distinction that some of us make between natural and hifi sound.

Here is the text:


Sound

When you close your eyes in the concert hall do you sense vivid three-dimensional images of performers and instruments? In your mind's ear are there precisely delineated rows of violins playing or musicians laid out in bas relief? Does your seating offer "illumination of the furthest corners of the soundstage?" My experience largely finds such effects not in concert halls but in listening rooms, where electronics along with room factors and speaker positioning help produce them. In the concert hall do you hear "velvety black backgrounds?" Do transients "pop like fireworks against a night sky?" Many audiophiles like these sonic characteristics and reviewers do write about them as the quotes (taken from real reviews) suggest. To my ears they are audiophile "virtues," psycho-acoustic idealizations of the live experience. What do you want your stereo system to sound like? I use live music as my reference.

To gauge the LP2.1 for yourself, go to a concert hall before you go to an audio show…the Lamm unit does not overreach the acoustic music experience by exaggerating or highlighting certain musical characteristics the way some modern audio components do.

 

[jeff1225]

Here is some thing that Tim wrote in his review of the LP 2.1 deluxe phonostage. It describes very well my experience with the same phono stage in my system. I do not see the term “holistic”. What I do see is a reference to the actual sound one hears in the concert hall making his words, for those who reference live acoustic music to assess the sound of audio systems or individual components, quite relevant.

This also touches on the distinction that some of us make between natural and hifi sound.

Here is the text:


Sound

When you close your eyes in the concert hall do you sense vivid three-dimensional images of performers and instruments? In your mind's ear are there precisely delineated rows of violins playing or musicians laid out in bas relief? Does your seating offer "illumination of the furthest corners of the soundstage?" My experience largely finds such effects not in concert halls but in listening rooms, where electronics along with room factors and speaker positioning help produce them. In the concert hall do you hear "velvety black backgrounds?" Do transients "pop like fireworks against a night sky?" Many audiophiles like these sonic characteristics and reviewers do write about them as the quotes (taken from real reviews) suggest. To my ears they are audiophile "virtues," psycho-acoustic idealizations of the live experience. What do you want your stereo system to sound like? I use live music as my reference.

To gauge the LP2.1 for yourself, go to a concert hall before you go to an audio show…the Lamm unit does not overreach the acoustic music experience by exaggerating or highlighting certain musical characteristics the way some modern audio components do.

I think Tim has captured the sound of the Lamm components better than any reviewer I've read.

 

[PeterA]

Did you ever actually measure SPL? I would not be surprised if you were actually listening louder now but that it sounds quieter due to the significnatly lower distortion the drivers produce because they are barely having to move to make the SPL you like. Distortion is an indication of loudness and the need to "turn it down" if it is really loud but clean you might not get that signal.

I should add to my earlier comments about actual listing levels.

I find this system also has a more extended range of enjoyable volume level settings. However, more important than that is the impression that the system seems to go from quiet to loud, when listening to for example symphonic music, in a much more effortless manner. The quiet passages are quieter and the louder passages are louder, contributing to the natural and more believable presentation. It is almost as though the sound flowing through the system is less compressed or restricted. This quality or ability to scale and swing is actually quite remarkable.

 

[microstrip]

Here is some thing that Tim wrote in his review of the LP 2.1 deluxe phonostage. It describes very well my experience with the same phono stage in my system. I do not see the term “holistic”. What I do see is a reference to the actual sound one hears in the concert hall making his words, for those who reference live acoustic music to assess the sound of audio systems or individual components, quite relevant. Here is the text:


Sound

When you close your eyes in the concert hall do you sense vivid three-dimensional images of performers and instruments? In your mind's ear are there precisely delineated rows of violins playing or musicians laid out in bas relief? Does your seating offer "illumination of the furthest corners of the soundstage?" My experience largely finds such effects not in concert halls but in listening rooms, where electronics along with room factors and speaker positioning help produce them. In the concert hall do you hear "velvety black backgrounds?" Do transients "pop like fireworks against a night sky?" Many audiophiles like these sonic characteristics and reviewers do write about them as the quotes (taken from real reviews) suggest. To my ears they are audiophile "virtues," psycho-acoustic idealizations of the live experience. What do you want your stereo system to sound like? I use live music as my reference.

To gauge the LP2.1 for yourself, go to a concert hall before you go to an audio show…the Lamm unit does not overreach the acoustic music experience by exaggerating or highlighting certain musical characteristics the way some modern audio components do.

Peter,

Again you say it all when you quote "When you close your eyes". I do not want my sound reproduced music to sound like a listening experience with closed eyes. IMHO it is not the objective of producers, sound engineers and most listeners. Even maestros appreciating stereo sound reproduction are known to change the position of the musicians in the orchestra to create a more rewarding recording. Soloists of the best recordings are many times manually panned to avoid needing compression in the recording. The jazz sound was influenced by the limitations of the recording process.

For example I love the way the Lamm ML3 illuminates the whole stage - probably the feature I valuate more in this amplifier, after its beautiful sound. But I associate it also with what I see in a concert or recital. I understand Tim message, but I think he builds his argument mostly on the poor characteristics of some systems to highlight his preference. IMHO WBF audiophiles and most well known reviewers do not love fireworks, trains and moonlight serenades.

I listen a lot to ancient music. In this type of very rich and diverse music the position of the performers is critical to the best understating and enjoyment of the recording. The same for some contemporary music - ask Al. M on this aspect, he will be able to say it much better than me. Or for example, theatrical music - I have listened to a few of the Falla recordings on Harmonia Mundi last weekend and they need real drama - they are usually played in a small theatre, not in a large hall.

 

[microstrip]

I should add to my earlier comments about actual listing levels. (...)

Do you have any reliable measurements you can quote, or are you just reporting subjective findings?

 

[Lampie519]

The quiet passages are quieter and the louder passages are louder, contributing to the natural and more believable presentation.

This can be an issue if you do not have a remote controlled volume contol (my case). I need to move sometimes 4 times to my preamp to adjust it .... lol.
The better the dynamic range (and neutrality of the system) the more difficult it becomes to adjust the volume at the begin of each new record as all have different recording levels.

High SPL is no longer "loud" .... so your reference of what is loud is gone...

 

[PeterA]

Do you have any reliable measurements you can quote, or are you just reporting subjective findings?

I’m simply sharing my listening impressions. You seem to waffle between your claim but this is only subjective and people do it for their personal enjoyment to the need to support subjective impressions with objective measurements.

Rereading my post, it seems pretty clear that this is an impression I have. In the case of my SPL response, I did use a digital meter for my earlier comments.

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

Again you say it all when you quote "When you close your eyes". I do not want my sound reproduced music to sound like a listening experience with closed eyes. IMHO it is not the objective of producers, sound engineers and most listeners. Even maestros appreciating stereo sound reproduction are known to change the position of the musicians in the orchestra to create a more rewarding recording. Soloists of the best recordings are many times manually panned to avoid needing compression in the recording. The jazz sound was influenced by the limitations of the recording process.

For example I love the way the Lamm ML3 illuminates the whole stage - probably the feature I valuate more in this amplifier, after its beautiful sound. But I associate it also with what I see in a concert or recital. I understand Tim message, but I think he builds his argument mostly on the poor characteristics of some systems to highlight his preference. IMHO WBF audiophiles and most well known reviewers do not love fireworks, trains and moonlight serenades.

I listen a lot to ancient music. In this type of very rich and diverse music the position of the performers is critical to the best understating and enjoyment of the recording. The same for some contemporary music - ask Al. M on this aspect, he will be able to say it much better than me. Or for example, theatrical music - I have listened to a few of the Falla recordings on Harmonia Mundi last weekend and they need real drama - they are usually played in a small theatre, not in a large hall.

I’ve been clear that I closed my eyes when listening to an audiophile friend speaking in my room and that led to a revelation about how I perceived the sound of his voice in my room and my later thoughts on pinpoint imaging. Sometimes, at the symphonyI actually close my eyes because I am so involved with the music and performance. I also do it to isolate the sound from the visual influences. Is this so unusual? Other concert goers do the same. I’ve also seen musicians close the rise when they were playing something memorized and it seems to focus their minds on the performance.

Frankly I do not understand your post at all.

 

[rbbert]

Or, play an acoustic instrument. If you come to listen to live music from listening to stereos, there is a lot to unlearn.

And here I thought I was at "What's Best Forum" rather than "Forum for Tyros"?

 

[tima]

atomising thoughts leads you to hearing Tim in a more analytical frame rather than allowing the overall spirit and intention of Tim’s response to digest in a more whole and natural way.

Graham, that's funny. However from my perspective the answer I gave to microsrip's question was very much in an 'analytical frame'. He latched on to the word 'holistic' which had absolutely nothing to do with my 'argument'. I blinded him with science.

Again IMHO this type of argumentation focuses in the listeners preferences, not on the sound characteristics of equipment. We learn a lot reading from other people opinions on equipment, it would be interesting to analyses why you think that Lamm "facilitate the perception" in terms of sonic signature .

Contra your hypothesis I'm describing these components as causative agents - my reaction to them was not a choice or a product of "training." So yes, Lamm components "facilitate the perception."

The interesting question behind all this is: do you choose to like how your stereo sounds?

 

[tima]

I think Tim has captured the sound of the Lamm components better than any reviewer I've read.

As a reviewer, for me that is the highest compliment. Thank you Jeffrey, you made my day.

 

[microstrip]

I’ve been clear that I closed my eyes when listening to an audiophile friend speaking in my room and that led to a revelation about how I perceived the sound of his voice in my room and my later thoughts on pinpoint imaging. Sometimes, at the symphonyI actually close my eyes because I am so involved with the music and performance. I also do it to isolate the sound from the visual influences. Is this so unusual? Other concert goers do the same. I’ve also seen musicians close the rise when they were playing something memorized and it seems to focus their minds on the performance.

Frankly I do not understand your post at all.

Yes, it seems you do not understand ... I was addressing the concert hall experience, not your room. As long as you mix everything no talk is possible.

 

[PeterA]

Yes, it seems you do not understand ... I was addressing the concert hall experience, not your room. As long as you mix everything no talk is possible.

Yes and I was addressing both which is clear from my post. And from your writings I thought you were addressing both also. My mistake. Let’s agree to meet up again in a different thread. I will see you somewhere else.

 

[rbbert]

rbbert, I find this post on someone’s system thread to be both surprisingly arrogant and condescending. I have been quite candid about my learning process. Why the need to insult?

Well I find the whole thread a bit condescending . I hope you have arrived where you want to be as far as insight into your audio goals and realization of a system to meet them, but to (apparently) assume that this is an unusual goal is, as I posted before, just bizarre. If the overwhelming majority of members and posters here aren’t pursuing “natural sound” then perhaps those who aren’t should spend some time at more plebeian audio forums.

 

[microstrip]

Graham, that's funny. However from my perspective the answer I gave to microsrip's question was very much in an 'analytical frame'. He latched on to the word 'holistic' which had absolutely nothing to do with my 'argument'. I blinded him with science.

No, we were just trying to put some content in an abused word, looking for its origin and cause of such experience. It was a natural flow of a talk on training. But you avoided to debate it with science, that implies an analysis of perception. I see now that in this thread "holistic" wants just to be an extension of "Natural Sound".

The interesting question behind all this is: do you choose to like how your stereo sounds?

Yes, Tim, very interesting question. IMHO, everyone does it, even unconsciously - the famous biases and training. We go listening to systems that trigger our interest, training ourselves. Such choices are ours and surely affect our preference. I have no doubt that the high-end as an hobby would not survive in "blind" conditions.

I decided not to take the Sean Olive training course because I know it would affect my "likeness" of my stereo.

 

[KeithR]

Here is some thing that Tim wrote in his review of the LP 2.1 deluxe phonostage. It describes very well my experience with the same phono stage in my system. I do not see the term “holistic”. What I do see is a reference to the actual sound one hears in the concert hall making his words, for those who reference live acoustic music to assess the sound of audio systems or individual components, quite relevant.

This also touches on the distinction that some of us make between natural and hifi sound.

Here is the text:


Sound

When you close your eyes in the concert hall do you sense vivid three-dimensional images of performers and instruments? In your mind's ear are there precisely delineated rows of violins playing or musicians laid out in bas relief? Does your seating offer "illumination of the furthest corners of the soundstage?" My experience largely finds such effects not in concert halls but in listening rooms, where electronics along with room factors and speaker positioning help produce them. In the concert hall do you hear "velvety black backgrounds?" Do transients "pop like fireworks against a night sky?" Many audiophiles like these sonic characteristics and reviewers do write about them as the quotes (taken from real reviews) suggest. To my ears they are audiophile "virtues," psycho-acoustic idealizations of the live experience. What do you want your stereo system to sound like? I use live music as my reference.

To gauge the LP2.1 for yourself, go to a concert hall before you go to an audio show…the Lamm unit does not overreach the acoustic music experience by exaggerating or highlighting certain musical characteristics the way some modern audio components do.

most use live music as their reference. And unsurprisingly their is a wide variety of opinions on what that really sounds like.

I find it interesting that when I’ve been to Disney Hall for live shows and closed my eyes, I’ve never heard what SET amps do (as posted before).

I also hear ridiculous dynamics in person that few if any systems generate at home.

Now maybe I have crap ears, that’s prob true.

 

[dminches]

most use live music as their reference. And unsurprisingly their is a wide variety of opinions on what that really sounds like.

I find it interesting that when I’ve been to Disney Hall for live shows and closed my eyes, I’ve never heard what SET amps do (as posted before).

I also hear ridiculous dynamics in person that few if any systems generate at home.

Now maybe I have crap ears, that’s prob true.

To me, there is a big difference between live amplified music and live acoustic music.

 

[PeterA]

Tim's quote from Lamm review:

"Sound

When you close your eyes in the concert hall do you sense vivid three-dimensional images of performers and instruments? In your mind's ear are there precisely delineated rows of violins playing or musicians laid out in bas relief? Does your seating offer "illumination of the furthest corners of the soundstage?" My experience largely finds such effects not in concert halls but in listening rooms, where electronics along with room factors and speaker positioning help produce them. In the concert hall do you hear "velvety black backgrounds?" Do transients "pop like fireworks against a night sky?" Many audiophiles like these sonic characteristics and reviewers do write about them as the quotes (taken from real reviews) suggest. To my ears they are audiophile "virtues," psycho-acoustic idealizations of the live experience. What do you want your stereo system to sound like? I use live music as my reference.

Keith, do you hear the sonic attributes that are highlighted in bold in the quote above when you go to Disney Hall and close your eyes?

most use live music as their reference. And unsurprisingly their is a wide variety of opinions on what that really sounds like.

I find it interesting that when I’ve been to Disney Hall for live shows and closed my eyes, I’ve never heard what SET amps do (as posted before).

I also hear ridiculous dynamics in person that few if any systems generate at home.

Now maybe I have crap ears, that’s prob true.