A system powered correctly and where the drivers of the speaker are well matched to each other, one should not have to adjust volume between the quieter and louder passages on the same recording
Natural Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
- Start date
A system powered correctly and where the drivers of the speaker are well matched to each other, one should not have to adjust volume between the quieter and louder passages on the same recording
I love harmonia mundi, but didn't understand the point. If the performer's positions are captured on the recording, their position will be reflected on a system that is transparent to recordings. If after that you shift to a close up they are here jazz recording the position should change accordingly
I know this cartridge as a friend had two or three (he went through a vintage Technics phase) of them. My Audio Technica has a similar flow and dynamics but higher resolution due to the cantilever/diamond design. If you like what you hear now from MM give one a try (not the replacements...it is no longer made). Not very expensive at all (I got mine for <400)
I ran some of my ESLs with KR Audio amps...that sounded really good.
So, do you choose the stereo...or does it choose you? I think once you have heard something that you perceive as "more real" then your path (if you are honest with yourself...I suspect many are not able to be) is set for you...it is no longer a conscious (if it ever was) decision. The first time I heard electrostats (AudioStatic ES100s) I couldn't believe what I was hearing...I dropped box speakers forever at that point.Graham, that's funny. However from my perspective the answer I gave to microsrip's question was very much in an 'analytical frame'. He latched on to the word 'holistic' which had absolutely nothing to do with my 'argument'. I blinded him with science.
The interesting question behind all this is: do you choose to like how your stereo sounds?
The next revelation came when I (finally) heard horns with electrostatic like transparency and low coloration combined with lifelike dynamics. I have been on that path since. When I heard what tubes do (particularly SET) compared to other topologies then that path as also "set". I am just lead by what my subconscious tells me is the more realistic sound. It chooses my path for me.
What people are pursuing has been debated here many times and you might find it surprising that not everyone is in agreement about what constitutes "natural sound" nor does everyone here think live, unamplified music is what should be strived for in reproduction. I personally use live, unamplified music as my ultimate reference and before lock downs went frequently, but I know some think this is not relevant.Well I find the whole thread a bit condescending. I hope you have arrived where you want to be as far as insight into your audio goals and realization of a system to meet them, but to (apparently) assume that this is an unusual goal is, as I posted before, just bizarre. If the overwhelming majority of members and posters here aren’t pursuing “natural sound” then perhaps those who aren’t should spend some time at more plebeian audio forums.
That's my thinking too. I suppose we could debate if distinguishing live from reproduced (which happens almost immediately) is a learned behavior or an 'internal skill'. But hearing and knowing 'more realistic' - especially when faced with alternatives - seems to just happen. If there is analysis, it happens so fast in our mind - as you say our subconscious - that we are unaware of any decision process. It's that Mick Jagger thing: 'I ain't no schoolboy but I know what I like.'
Based on the recordings you have posted so far Peter, I have somewhat mixed feelings. On the one hand, there is clearly a nice relaxed tone and very good dynamics from your new system. Transparency seems good but not amazing and I get the feeling that some sounds are being covered/masked by others. There is a clear vintage "flavor" to the tonality as it is quite midrange centric and "golden hued" (similar to thoughts from Bazelio) and that doesn't inherently bother me but the loss of clarity does. I once heard a pair of JBL C50 Olympus speakers with OTLs (that I bought from the guy). My first response to the speakers was, "oh wow, those are really colored" but after a while of listening to them the coloration was no longer noticed and what they did very well shone through and was quite enjoyable. Could i live with them long term? Not sure. Maybe the Vitavox speakers are similar in this regard in person?
One of the things I have been unwilling to compromise on to obtain a natural sound (and I think you and I have similar if not exactly the same idea here) is transparency and being able to clearly hear the instruments in space and with differentiation as well as texture on the instruments themselves (very important for hollow bodied string instruments and certain types of percussion instruments). It sound like this has become soemwhat indistinct in the new setup. Again, this is only from the available recordings. You are right that when one sits back on a concert hall you don't hear so much separation but when you sit close to live instruments there is all the information you would hear on a good recording (and then some). Since most recordings are not made like sitting mid-hall or far from the instruments, the system shouldn't try to replicate that kind of live...unless the recording is made that way.
I am just concerned that you will realize later that the pendulum (as someone earlier said) has swung too far and you have thrown the baby out with the bath water.
I have taken a neo-classical approach to the problem. Old ideas (horns and SETs) but executed in a more modern concept where things like resonance control (also with the horn design) are consider as well as extension (particularly in the highs) is part of the plan as well and low coloration overall. Transparency must not be sacrificed to have a more appealing, natural sound. This can sound nice at first but will lead to boredom due to the sameness of the tonality with all recordings.
I also heard what sounded like a sharp resonance (could be room but was not really there so strongly with the Magico setup) in the upper mids/lower highs. When particular notes were hit it was quite pronounced. Did you notice this?
Just some thoughts on what I heard...again if that is what you sought and are happy then I have not much more to say about it. As you know, in principle, this is the kind of system I like, much more so than what you had before. It's just that I hear the "flavor" that others have noted and that transparency seems somewhat lower and think the two things are probably related.
One of the things I have been unwilling to compromise on to obtain a natural sound (and I think you and I have similar if not exactly the same idea here) is transparency and being able to clearly hear the instruments in space and with differentiation as well as texture on the instruments themselves (very important for hollow bodied string instruments and certain types of percussion instruments). It sound like this has become soemwhat indistinct in the new setup. Again, this is only from the available recordings. You are right that when one sits back on a concert hall you don't hear so much separation but when you sit close to live instruments there is all the information you would hear on a good recording (and then some). Since most recordings are not made like sitting mid-hall or far from the instruments, the system shouldn't try to replicate that kind of live...unless the recording is made that way.
I am just concerned that you will realize later that the pendulum (as someone earlier said) has swung too far and you have thrown the baby out with the bath water.
I have taken a neo-classical approach to the problem. Old ideas (horns and SETs) but executed in a more modern concept where things like resonance control (also with the horn design) are consider as well as extension (particularly in the highs) is part of the plan as well and low coloration overall. Transparency must not be sacrificed to have a more appealing, natural sound. This can sound nice at first but will lead to boredom due to the sameness of the tonality with all recordings.
I also heard what sounded like a sharp resonance (could be room but was not really there so strongly with the Magico setup) in the upper mids/lower highs. When particular notes were hit it was quite pronounced. Did you notice this?
Just some thoughts on what I heard...again if that is what you sought and are happy then I have not much more to say about it. As you know, in principle, this is the kind of system I like, much more so than what you had before. It's just that I hear the "flavor" that others have noted and that transparency seems somewhat lower and think the two things are probably related.
Brad, I appreciate your comments. Most people do not dare to post videos of their systems. I posted some of mine to further the discussion in this thread and because they were requested.
I prefer the new system to my former one for the reasons I have stated. Keep in mind I spent years getting the former one to the level where it is in these videos. The new system is basically out of the box with components still sitting on the floor. The speakers sat idle for decades. The cabinets and wires are still settling in and the sound is changing. Despite that, I think the differences come through clearly on YouTube.
Set up will continue to improve and I suspect David will have some fine tuning to perform. I will post some videos of the VDH Colibrí having just been returned from the Netherlands with modification.
The cartridge used in the Magico videos no longer exists. Its much higher output was not suited for the efficiency of the new system. At this point there’s no commonality between the two systems. As I live with this new system, it continues to evolve. I will get around to posting more videos. I welcome your criticisms because they give context to what I hear from your system videos. I am hear to share and to learn.
I prefer the new system to my former one for the reasons I have stated. Keep in mind I spent years getting the former one to the level where it is in these videos. The new system is basically out of the box with components still sitting on the floor. The speakers sat idle for decades. The cabinets and wires are still settling in and the sound is changing. Despite that, I think the differences come through clearly on YouTube.
Set up will continue to improve and I suspect David will have some fine tuning to perform. I will post some videos of the VDH Colibrí having just been returned from the Netherlands with modification.
The cartridge used in the Magico videos no longer exists. Its much higher output was not suited for the efficiency of the new system. At this point there’s no commonality between the two systems. As I live with this new system, it continues to evolve. I will get around to posting more videos. I welcome your criticisms because they give context to what I hear from your system videos. I am hear to share and to learn.
It should be relevant to us all, but there is the unavoidable issue of the recording itself. Without having been present at the event itself and then also knowing what mastering was done it is difficult if not impossible to know how home reproduction relates to the original. There are some interesting opinions about this in the links below
Soundkeeper Recordings
The official web site of Soundkeeper Recordings.
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
It should be relevant to us all, but there is the unavoidable issue of the recording itself. Without having been present at the event itself and then also knowing what mastering was done it is difficult if not impossible to know how home reproduction relates to the original. There are some interesting opinions about this in the links below
Soundkeeper Recordings
The official web site of Soundkeeper Recordings.
That may be true but we all use a good number of recordings to assess sound. One would think that across a dozen (or more) recordings mastering by different people could form an accurate representation of the target one is trying to hit.
I received a very nice note from a gentleman in NZ with whom I corresponded during my SME V-12/3012R tonearm comparisons. He knows those two arms well having been the SME distributor for his country. He found this thread and with his permission, I share here what he wrote to me. Again, there is the comparison of the Vitavox system, and the Lamm gear in particular, to the sound of real music in the concert hall. This is a continuing theme. I heard it in Utah, and I now hear it in my own room. That some people prefer the sound of the Vitavox while others the Magico, is quite interesting, considering the comparison is made over the videos.
Elements of the natural sound referencing the real thing, still come through over the videos. I find this observation and how people describe it, along with the divergence of those who prefer one system to the other, quite interesting. Here is his note:
Hi Peter,
Just thought I’d drop you a line to congratulate you on the new system.
The room looks wonderful. I love the way it now feels like a music room as opposed to an audio room.
My mother used to teach piano, and our family living room always had a piano as the centrepiece, played most days.
The initial reaction on your new thread “Natural Sound” reminded me of early school, when the lunch bell would go off, and all the kids would run out of the classroom in all directions.
You must have the patience of a saint. In some ways this is to be expected, as one thing I learnt from when I had a high end audio dstribution business in the 80’s, is that each person hears differently, has different expectations or requirements, and sadly many folk have no idea of what a live orchestra sounds like in a concert hall. For those reasons a rational discussion on the merits of a particular system can be difficult.
With regard to the system the videos are great.
The comparison between the Magico/Pass vs the Vitavox/Lamm on Scheherazade was very informative.
Clearly the Magico system is very crisp clean, detailed and musical.
The Vitavox are a sound with which I am familiar in that myself and two main listening buddies all have large vintage backloaded horn systems.
One has Tannoy Autographs driven by Air Tight ATM3 monos, the other has heavily upgraded Klipschorn corner horns with ALK engineering crossovers ( that I have rebuilt to much higher standards ) driven by EAR861, , and updated drivers.
So I hear a similar presentation from the Vitavox to the Khorns/Autographs.
It seems to me the Vitavox are clearly a step up from the Khorns – that single compression driver running from 500hz up gets rid of crossover issues compared to most horn systems that run separate midrange/tweeter.
It is amazing that they are still in production.
For me the telling moment in the comparison was a couple of minutes into Scheherazade - I became immersed in the music, as opposed to the Magico/Pass presentation of incredible precision, but it feels like you are looking on as opposed to being immersed. With the Vitavox I simply forgot that I was comparing videos – the ebb and flow of the performance took precedence.
The extra video you posted with the Lamm chain driving the Magicos enabled me to reconcile the two systems . Whilst the Pass/Magico was outstanding in many respects, again the Lamm/Magico presented more of a natural balance that you would hear in a live performance. For example on the plucked strings, the less incisive presentation of the Lamm with the Magicos for me gives a more natural presentation – the gestalt of the orchestra as a whole more intact.
I was very fortunate in that back in the 80’s, when I was 25, I distributed Apogees and Martin Logans in New Zealand for the first time along with many other great products – all analogue.
I had the luxury of listening at length to the top speakers of the day when I visited the US in 1985. – the IRS V’s, Wilson Audio, Duntechs etc. As an aside I also had the privilege of having a one on one listening session with Dave Wilson where he ran through several of his recordings on his monitor system with me and explained precisely the microphone techniques used and what he was trying to capture.
At the end of that trip I came home and coincidentally heard the vintage Tannoy GRF Professional speakers. Similarly to your visit to David Karmelis home, I had heard the latest and greatest, distributed Apogees and Logans ( and other swiss cost no object speakers such as a custom large scale speajker system from Pawel Acoustics ). I said to the owner at the time that despite having heard some of the top systems in the world, the GRF Professionals are as good as anything I’ve heard. I now own them. They enable you to listen to large scale orchestral, with an effortless sound, but despite the large scale you can follow the line of individual instruments within the orchestra f you choose to or simpy absorb the whole.
So welcome to the vintage backloaded horn club – now you can forget about upgrading and just enjoy the music.
PS Peggy Lee on the Klangfilm Bionor – wonderful – I’ve heard this particular track hundreds of times – a favourite track of my friend with the Autographs.
I look forward to hearing the Grande Cru on the Vitavox.
If I had a request for a video it would be Muddy Waters “Country Boy” as I have that record for comparison here.
Not sure if you are familiar with him but Sonny Boy Williamson “Keep It to Ourselves” on Analogue Productions is an incredible album – stunning vocal/guitar/harmonica performances. - that I would recommend – not just an audiophile demo album – the musical is fantastic.
Hope you are well – it certainly looks like the Covid situation in the US is starting to abate – touch wood.
Regards,
Elements of the natural sound referencing the real thing, still come through over the videos. I find this observation and how people describe it, along with the divergence of those who prefer one system to the other, quite interesting. Here is his note:
Hi Peter,
Just thought I’d drop you a line to congratulate you on the new system.
The room looks wonderful. I love the way it now feels like a music room as opposed to an audio room.
My mother used to teach piano, and our family living room always had a piano as the centrepiece, played most days.
The initial reaction on your new thread “Natural Sound” reminded me of early school, when the lunch bell would go off, and all the kids would run out of the classroom in all directions.
You must have the patience of a saint. In some ways this is to be expected, as one thing I learnt from when I had a high end audio dstribution business in the 80’s, is that each person hears differently, has different expectations or requirements, and sadly many folk have no idea of what a live orchestra sounds like in a concert hall. For those reasons a rational discussion on the merits of a particular system can be difficult.
With regard to the system the videos are great.
The comparison between the Magico/Pass vs the Vitavox/Lamm on Scheherazade was very informative.
Clearly the Magico system is very crisp clean, detailed and musical.
The Vitavox are a sound with which I am familiar in that myself and two main listening buddies all have large vintage backloaded horn systems.
One has Tannoy Autographs driven by Air Tight ATM3 monos, the other has heavily upgraded Klipschorn corner horns with ALK engineering crossovers ( that I have rebuilt to much higher standards ) driven by EAR861, , and updated drivers.
So I hear a similar presentation from the Vitavox to the Khorns/Autographs.
It seems to me the Vitavox are clearly a step up from the Khorns – that single compression driver running from 500hz up gets rid of crossover issues compared to most horn systems that run separate midrange/tweeter.
It is amazing that they are still in production.
For me the telling moment in the comparison was a couple of minutes into Scheherazade - I became immersed in the music, as opposed to the Magico/Pass presentation of incredible precision, but it feels like you are looking on as opposed to being immersed. With the Vitavox I simply forgot that I was comparing videos – the ebb and flow of the performance took precedence.
The extra video you posted with the Lamm chain driving the Magicos enabled me to reconcile the two systems . Whilst the Pass/Magico was outstanding in many respects, again the Lamm/Magico presented more of a natural balance that you would hear in a live performance. For example on the plucked strings, the less incisive presentation of the Lamm with the Magicos for me gives a more natural presentation – the gestalt of the orchestra as a whole more intact.
I was very fortunate in that back in the 80’s, when I was 25, I distributed Apogees and Martin Logans in New Zealand for the first time along with many other great products – all analogue.
I had the luxury of listening at length to the top speakers of the day when I visited the US in 1985. – the IRS V’s, Wilson Audio, Duntechs etc. As an aside I also had the privilege of having a one on one listening session with Dave Wilson where he ran through several of his recordings on his monitor system with me and explained precisely the microphone techniques used and what he was trying to capture.
At the end of that trip I came home and coincidentally heard the vintage Tannoy GRF Professional speakers. Similarly to your visit to David Karmelis home, I had heard the latest and greatest, distributed Apogees and Logans ( and other swiss cost no object speakers such as a custom large scale speajker system from Pawel Acoustics ). I said to the owner at the time that despite having heard some of the top systems in the world, the GRF Professionals are as good as anything I’ve heard. I now own them. They enable you to listen to large scale orchestral, with an effortless sound, but despite the large scale you can follow the line of individual instruments within the orchestra f you choose to or simpy absorb the whole.
So welcome to the vintage backloaded horn club – now you can forget about upgrading and just enjoy the music.
PS Peggy Lee on the Klangfilm Bionor – wonderful – I’ve heard this particular track hundreds of times – a favourite track of my friend with the Autographs.
I look forward to hearing the Grande Cru on the Vitavox.
If I had a request for a video it would be Muddy Waters “Country Boy” as I have that record for comparison here.
Not sure if you are familiar with him but Sonny Boy Williamson “Keep It to Ourselves” on Analogue Productions is an incredible album – stunning vocal/guitar/harmonica performances. - that I would recommend – not just an audiophile demo album – the musical is fantastic.
Hope you are well – it certainly looks like the Covid situation in the US is starting to abate – touch wood.
Regards,
Nice write-up. Would love to hear a video from his Tannoy GRFs!
What part of the target is the question. Imaging? Dynamics? Detail? Tone? Specific aspects of these? Posts here and elsewhere suggest that each of us will tend to give different weight to each of those properties, and if one is to analyze the sound in that way the music better not be all that appealing or else we (I at least) will get lost in the music itself. That is really the goal of a great recording and doesn't necessarily have much to do with realism or "natural sound", because our listening environments are all different and in few if any cases very much like the recording venue itself.
As the saying goes, you will know it when you hear (see) it, and as with so many other things there is unlikely to be unanimity. That doesn't mean the quest or the goal isn't worthwhile though.
I do not think it is "safe to say that members here are all pursuing what they consider to be 'natural sound'". Ron Resnick started an interesting thread here on WBF in which he reached a kind of consensus that there are four goals that members here pursue. I don't think "natural sound" was one of them. You should look up that thread.
Something else with which I disagree is that I "only recently discovered that goal (of natural sound)". In fact, what I recently discovered was that what I used to think of as "natural sound" was quite removed from what I heard in the concert hall. That was my recent discovery, not the idea of natural sound. It was a kind of revelation for me. I am still learning, and it has been a process of discovery. My perceptions and preferences have evolved and these drove my system changes. I simply learned to recognize and understand what I was actually hearing.
Peter, I'm excited to hear what David will do when he visits - I think anything before hand is premature. He's been your guide throughout and knows the entire system exceedingly well since you purchased somewhat of a turn-key one.
My only concern is that you didn't go out and audition multiple horns and SETs before making your decision- especially with your ability in the northeast. My process was clearly the opposite
My only concern is that you didn't go out and audition multiple horns and SETs before making your decision- especially with your ability in the northeast. My process was clearly the opposite
Thank you Bill. The highlighted passage sums it up well.
These comments indicate that I am not alone in describing the differences between the two systems in terms of "natural" versus "hifi". And people like them both, that is clear. My former SME/Pass/Magico system was indeed more in the "hifi" camp of sound reproduction. I enjoyed it for years. Then, as I experimented with set up, it began to sound slightly more natural. I don't really have videos of that system with all the room treatments, the pneumatic isolation, the fancy power cords and audiophile cables. Toe in was pretty severe. But even here, the differences are pretty clear, and people prefer each one over the other.
I tried to find that thread. The only one I found focused more on what we hear.
I am sure it isn’t 100% but I would think most audiophiles are trying to put together a system that sounds like “the real thing,” however they define it. Do you think that is your definition of “natural sound?”
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