Natural Sound

[KeithR]

Tim's quote from Lamm review:

"Sound

When you close your eyes in the concert hall do you sense vivid three-dimensional images of performers and instruments? In your mind's ear are there precisely delineated rows of violins playing or musicians laid out in bas relief? Does your seating offer "illumination of the furthest corners of the soundstage?" My experience largely finds such effects not in concert halls but in listening rooms, where electronics along with room factors and speaker positioning help produce them. In the concert hall do you hear "velvety black backgrounds?" Do transients "pop like fireworks against a night sky?" Many audiophiles like these sonic characteristics and reviewers do write about them as the quotes (taken from real reviews) suggest. To my ears they are audiophile "virtues," psycho-acoustic idealizations of the live experience. What do you want your stereo system to sound like? I use live music as my reference.

Keith, do you hear the sonic attributes that are highlighted in bold in the quote above when you go to Disney Hall and close your eyes?

we definitely hear excellent transients at a live symphonic performance against a sea of quiet. i'm not a black background guy as you know. in fact, most of those systems i feel strip harmonics to obtain that effect.

my focus is on the "whole note", tone, and coherency. these are things i hear live. but they aren't the only system qualities that are necessary for my hifi at home. i don't feel replicating Disney Hall in my living room is the goal.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, I'm excited to hear what David will do when he visits - I think anything before hand is premature. He's been your guide throughout and knows the entire system exceedingly well since you purchased somewhat of a turn-key one.

My only concern is that you didn't go out and audition multiple horns and SETs before making your decision- especially with your ability in the northeast. My process was clearly the opposite

Keith, yes David knows the components and system quite well. He will undoubtedly fine tune it some more. I am looking forward to that.

Have you watched the videos of the system to form an impression, even if premature?

Yes, your very extensive speaker search did not turn out as you had hoped. I am sorry to hear that. I have no such worries. You are not alone in criticizing my process. Remember, I can return it all to ddk for full refund. I do not see that happening though. I am listening to more music than I was before, and it is becoming a conflict with the time I want to spend on the water sailing.

 

[PeterA]

I tried to find that thread. The only one I found focused more on what we hear.

I am sure it isn’t 100% but I would think most audiophiles are trying to put together a system that sounds like “the real thing,” however they define it. Do you think that is your definition of “natural sound?”

dminches, I wrote my definition of natural sound in two threads I started: near the beginning of this thread, and near the beginning of the visit to Utah thread. Some here were highly critical of my comments that natural sound was the sound that reminded me of the real thing, so I came up with a more precise and detailed description of the sound that "natural" sounding systems have in common, at least the ones that I have heard. I have no idea if that list is satisfactory to the critics. My list is easy to look up.

 

[rbbert]

I do not think it is "safe to say that members here are all pursuing what they consider to be 'natural sound'". Ron Resnick started an interesting thread here on WBF in which he reached a kind of consensus that there are four goals that members here pursue. I don't think "natural sound" was one of them. You should look up that thread.

Here are links to 3 threads started by Ron that might be relevant

Can We / Should We "Balance" Our Way To Our Desired Sound?

In Christian's "Lamm LP2.1 Deluxe" thread Mike L. replied to my question about the progression of the phono preamps Mike has enjoyed in his system over the years. In Mike's reply he wrote: "[O]nce coloration enters, balance is a constant drag on system building." I believe I understand what...

whatsbestforum.com

"Natural" Sound

I reported that I found that Steve's system playing vinyl sounded very "natural." As our self-designated hyperbole and introspection control policeman am I guilty of hyperbole when I describe a system's sound as "natural"? What do we mean by "natural" when we say an audio system sounds...

whatsbestforum.com

Is Live, Unamplified Music the Correct Reference for the Sound of our Audio Systems?

By what do we judge our audio systems? Do we compare our audio systems to the sound of live, unamplified music? Do we compare our audio systems to some composite of the sound of live music and of the sound of our friends' stereo systems we have in our heads? If someone nevers listens to live...

whatsbestforum.com

As you can see, one of them is even titled "natural sound"

 

[PeterA]

we definitely hear excellent transients at a live symphonic performance against a sea of quiet. i'm not a black background guy as you know. in fact, most of those systems i feel strip harmonics to obtain that effect.

my focus is on the "whole note", tone, and coherency. these are things i hear live. but they aren't the only system qualities that are necessary for my hifi at home. i don't feel replicating Disney Hall in my living room is the goal.

Yes, I agree about stripping harmonics to get the effect of black backgrounds. This is certainly for me a "hifi" characteristic. And yet, many reviews celebrate a components ability to do just that. This is one reason I conclude that some people chase a "hifi" sound. Some search for ever increasing levels of black backgrounds. Reviewers know it, and manufacturers know it. And it sells. Acoustic treatments and some equipment supports have this effect also. It strips harmonics, though I would say more simply, that it robs information. This is not a natural sound.

I don't think anyone has the goal of replicating Disney Hall in his living room, but some have the goal of being reminded of the sound of real instruments in their living rooms from their systems or being transported to the concert hall or other recording venue.

 

[wil]

Here are links to 3 threads started by Ron that might be relevant

Can We / Should We "Balance" Our Way To Our Desired Sound?

In Christian's "Lamm LP2.1 Deluxe" thread Mike L. replied to my question about the progression of the phono preamps Mike has enjoyed in his system over the years. In Mike's reply he wrote: "[O]nce coloration enters, balance is a constant drag on system building." I believe I understand what...

whatsbestforum.com

"Natural" Sound

I reported that I found that Steve's system playing vinyl sounded very "natural." As our self-designated hyperbole and introspection control policeman am I guilty of hyperbole when I describe a system's sound as "natural"? What do we mean by "natural" when we say an audio system sounds...

whatsbestforum.com

Is Live, Unamplified Music the Correct Reference for the Sound of our Audio Systems?

By what do we judge our audio systems? Do we compare our audio systems to the sound of live, unamplified music? Do we compare our audio systems to some composite of the sound of live music and of the sound of our friends' stereo systems we have in our heads? If someone nevers listens to live...

whatsbestforum.com

As you can see, one of them is even titled "natural sound"

It is an interesting subject for audiophiles (no one else for sure!) and I think it illustrates how varied the reactions are from people here, with comparable listening skills and live music exposure, to the notion of "natural."

As far as Peter's systems go, as heard through videos, some hear Vitavox as colored and mid-range heavy and prefer the clarity and extension of his Magico setup. Others hear the Magico as "hi-fi" -- read "artificial" -- and think the Vitavox better represents live acoustic music.

I hear the Magico system as more natural. Whenever I hear acoustic music or sounds in nature, from birds songs to wind blowing, the unifying element that distinguishes it from reproduced sound is infinite ease and clarity. I think I recall Peter defining the sound of the Boston Symphony to be, for him, one of "clarity." That definitely resonates with my experience.

It will be interesting to see how the Vitavox system changes with tuning/positioning in the room. Though they are obviously designed to fit in corners, I wonder how they would sound further into the room?

 

[morricab]

Brad, I appreciate your comments. Most people do not dare to post videos of their systems. I posted some of mine to further the discussion in this thread and because they were requested.

I prefer the new system to my former one for the reasons I have stated. Keep in mind I spent years getting the former one to the level where it is in these videos. The new system is basically out of the box with components still sitting on the floor. The speakers sat idle for decades. The cabinets and wires are still settling in and the sound is changing. Despite that, I think the differences come through clearly on YouTube.

Set up will continue to improve and I suspect David will have some fine tuning to perform. I will post some videos of the VDH Colibrí having just been returned from the Netherlands with modification.

The cartridge used in the Magico videos no longer exists. Its much higher output was not suited for the efficiency of the new system. At this point there’s no commonality between the two systems. As I live with this new system, it continues to evolve. I will get around to posting more videos. I welcome your criticisms because they give context to what I hear from your system videos. I am hear to share and to learn.

Hi Peter,
I am sure you will continue to refine and improve the sound. I am also aware of the limitations of capturing such a system with a small video like this. I have also posted my systems on this forum and opened myself to criticism. I didn't want to come across as too critical because there are clearly elements of this system that I can relate to.

 

[dbeau]

Well I find the whole thread a bit condescending . If the overwhelming majority of members and posters here aren’t pursuing “natural sound” then perhaps those who aren’t should spend some time at more plebeian audio forums.

Talking about condescending ???

 

[morricab]

What part of the target is the question. Imaging? Dynamics? Detail? Tone? Specific aspects of these? Posts here and elsewhere suggest that each of us will tend to give different weight to each of those properties, and if one is to analyze the sound in that way the music better not be all that appealing or else we (I at least) will get lost in the music itself. That is really the goal of a great recording and doesn't necessarily have much to do with realism or "natural sound", because our listening environments are all different and in few if any cases very much like the recording venue itself.

As the saying goes, you will know it when you hear (see) it, and as with so many other things there is unlikely to be unanimity. That doesn't mean the quest or the goal isn't worthwhile though.

For me it is not so much what one prefers to focus on...one might assume that they focus on this with live music as well... it is more that one can take the experiences of live, unamplified music and digest its gestalt and in the form of recognition and then apply that to how close a system gets in the matching of that gestalt.

You will almost never mistake live music for a recording in the real world. I was in a series of back alleys in a little town in Spain back in 2017 and from a long way off there was music. It turned out that there was a small brass band (with a some percussion) that was marching down some of these alleys. Even from a long way off and around multiple turns and twists I was immediately recognizing this as live music and not a recording played back out of someone's window or doorway. The SPL was not more than 70db at first (they eventually came down the alley we were in so it confirmed the observation) so SPL had nothing to do with it. Nor did tone as the tone shifts a lot as it bounced down the alleyways and got closer.
This has happened to me many times with many street performers as well (and then there were some with backing tracks where you could easily tell that was canned). Once your brain 'knows" this holistic picture you can start to assess if a system has some of that, none of that or a lot of that. IMO, whatever else a system does, the more it has of that the better it is.

 

[tima]

I tried to find that thread. The only one I found focused more on what we hear.

I don't think the "consensus building thread" exists - or whenever I've asked Ron, he has not given a reference. Maybe it was an private discussion. There is a list of 4-5 items, but not a thread where it was developed, at least to my knowledge. When I first saw it I thought it was the same as J Valin put forth in TAS some years back; the two are very similar.

 

[tima]

It will be interesting to see how the Vitavox system changes with tuning/positioning in the room. Though they are obviously designed to fit in corners, I wonder how they would sound further into the room?

I suspect the Colibri cartridge will make the biggest difference. But yes, interesting.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I suspect the Colibri cartridge will make the biggest difference. But yes, interesting.

Agree - I think the VdH Grand Cru back in the system will make a substantial change to the sound. The perceived “clarity” will increase a lot imho as will the perceived drive / life.

Moving the speakers out into the room will ultimately lose bass efficiency and extension. Those cabinets are specifically designed to couple to the room corner boundaries.

 

[rbbert]

Talking about condescending ???

my comment was mostly in response to this post

"Or, play an acoustic instrument. If you come to listen to live music from listening to stereos, there is a lot to unlearn. "

So a bit tit for tat

 

[PeterA]

I suspect the Colibri cartridge will make the biggest difference. But yes, interesting.

The Colibri used in the Magico videos is gone. It was modified for lower output for the new high efficiency system. It now has about ten hours on it and is starting the break in process. It sounds very promising, but I doubt I will share any videos for a while. The former higher output from this cartridge overwhelmed the system and created a somewhat forced sound. Two of my audio friends really liked it, but it was not my taste. I think it is evident in the Magico videos too, but to a lesser extent. The high output meant the sound was always being pushed and I found it a bit strident. It lacked the nuance and flow evident in the Vitavox videos with the Techics MM cartridge. The extra energy was good in the much less efficient Magico system.

I suspect the lower output Colibri will be somewhere in between the two, having the nuance and flow of the MM and the resolution of the MC. It is sounding quite nice already.

 

[rbbert]

"Blacker background" should mean (and originally meant) lowering the volume of system noise artifacts to better hear low-level musical information. The fact that the terminology is often misused and misinterpreted by some reviewers and listeners doesn't mean it's not a worthwhile goal.

 

[morricab]

I suspect the Colibri cartridge will make the biggest difference. But yes, interesting.

I Agree. I think it will change quite a bit with the cartridge change.

 

[PeterA]

"Blacker background" should mean (and originally meant) lowering the volume of system noise artifacts to better hear low-level musical information. The fact that the terminology is often misused and misinterpreted by some reviewers and listeners doesn't mean it's not a worthwhile goal.

And yet people refer to the black backgrounds in the concert hall. What is that? I never hear it when in a concert hall, not when it is empty, and not when it is full during moments of silence. There is still energy and hints of sound floating around. I associate black backgrounds with the removal of information from what is on the recording. The result is often great contrasts, starker images, and bolder sound. Some find this exciting and natural. They seek it out.

I hear increased low level musical information when the overall resolution increases through superior components, set up, and power delivery. Some things simply choke the sound and prevent the information on the recording from getting through. Or if it does manage to get through, it is often lost to the room or set up choices. I am finding that dampening, absorbing, and blocking are the enemy of natural sound.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

The Colibri used in the Magico videos is gone. It was modified for lower output for the new high efficiency system. It now has about ten hours on it and is starting the break in process. It sounds very promising, but I doubt I will share any videos for a while. The former higher output from this cartridge overwhelmed the system and created a somewhat forced sound. Two of my audio friends really liked it, but it was not my taste. I think it is evident in the Magico videos too, but to a lesser extent. The high output meant the sound was always being pushed and I found it a bit strident. It lacked the nuance and flow evident in the Vitavox videos with the Techics MM cartridge. The extra energy was good in the much less efficient Magico system.

I suspect the lower output Colibri will be somewhere in between the two, having the nuance and flow of the MM and the resolution of the MC. It is sounding quite nice already.

Totally agree with your assessment, Peter.

 

[Lampie519]

I am finding that dampening, absorbing, and blocking are the enemy of natural sound.

We should not over dampen but reflections give a false feeling of a spacious sound. The room acoustics of the original should be on the recording and will be audible in case the dynamic range is available.

 

[Solypsa]

... I am finding that dampening, absorbing, and blocking are the enemy of natural sound.

My observation on this is that manipulating a room for 'acoustic treatment' very often causes harm. I am not, however, prepared to toss out the whole idea. I think it takes talent in design and also the willingness to try multiple remedies ( aka MikeL journey ) which can be very invasive and expensive.