Natural Sound

[jeff1225]

Wonder what he meant ? ... musicians have praised the hall as they can hear each other.... an often overlooked issue
I do recall talking to some engineers about the fact that the sound reinforcment system was poor and they bought ATC in to solve it
Maybe he didnt like folks hearing every little mistake
Anyhoo sailing off topic..

He obviously wanted a livelier venue. Chick might know a thing or two about live jazz venues. And mistakes? Yes that’s the beauty of improvised jazz. Miles Davis said there was no progress from playing it perfect.

 

[miniguy]

Would you describe that as a “black background“? Is Disney Hall considered to have good acoustics? Unfortunately, I’ve only seen the outside and they wouldn’t let me inside to even take a look at the lobby without a ticket for a performance.

Disney Hall is just a little too over reverberant for my liking. Hard surfaces everywhere.

 

[KeithR]

This is what I suspected as soon as Keith quoted the low ambient noise level. You say “famously“. That must mean that he raised a few eyebrows with his comments.

I wasn't crapping on Disney Hall at all - it's remarkable. i believe the japanese acoustician is now considered the most world renown expert in the field. it's a beautiful facility and i enjoy that i can sit side orchestra and watch conducting up close unlike shoebox venues.

but its not a jazz club. i have also noted for chamber music it wasn't my favorite, even sitting front orchestra.

 

[Al M.]

.but its not a jazz club. i have also noted for chamber music it wasn't my favorite, even sitting front orchestra.

Yes, chamber music usually does not work well in a large hall. Many venues feature a separate smaller hall for chamber music.

 

[pjwd]

I wasn't crapping on Disney Hall at all - it's remarkable. i believe the japanese acoustician is now considered the most world renown expert in the field. it's a beautiful facility and i enjoy that i can sit side orchestra and watch conducting up close unlike shoebox venues.

but its not a jazz club. i have also noted for chamber music it wasn't my favorite, even sitting front orchestra.

Agree ... I loved it .. Nagata did our local conservatorium hall here maybe 20 years ago.. its fantastic as well but at 600 or so seats it suits everything

 

[jeff1225]

Disney Hall is just a little too over reverberant for my liking. Hard surfaces everywhere.

Have you looked at the back walls? While they look like hard surfaces they actually have small holes with absorbing material behind.

 

[miniguy]

Have you looked at the back walls? While they look like hard surfaces they actually have small holes with absorbing material behind.

It doesn’t matter. Just not my idea of a great hall.

 

[bonzo75]

Micro quoted only part of Fremer's Monaco review. You go on to read it it is probably the most negative review I have read.

 

[howiebrou]

I don’t know what to tell you Francisco. The noise floor of my current system is lower than was that of my former system. I hear more information and yet the backgrounds are not blacker. They are more full of information. Harmonics and resolution have increased with the lowering of the noise for while backgrounds are less black and absent of information.

There is less blackness in the soundstage. In fact the stage is more full of energy from the instruments. Roy Gregory describes the “blackness of the soundstage background” in his review. That sure seems like a reference to live music to me and not a lowering of the noise floor.

We can disagree about context and definitions all day long. This is my system thread and I’m simply sharing my impressions of the way I think about music and it’s reproduction. The descriptions are mine and I do not adhere to the audiophile lexicon.

Thank you for posting those three quotes. They are exactly why I stopped reading reviews. I do not hear components sounding the way they are described by many of these reviewers. In fact it is becoming more and more difficult for me to relate to the language these reviewers use to describe components and sound.

I understand full well that you hold in high regard the text books and reviews of well known people in the industry. That is fine. You can feel confident by agreeing with, supporting, and sharing their views.

I am no longer convinced by what you hold up as the popular view. I now have a better understanding of what I am hearing and I am describing that in the clearest way I know how.

I am not a fan of black backgrounds or overly damped listening rooms. If anyone has heard any of my videos you will hear all sorts of crap in the background and I much prefer it that way to an anechoic chamber like listening room (although it must be said fewer bus noises would not be unwelcome). Yes it might detract a little from the music but it feels more lively to me and alive.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

He obviously wanted a livelier venue. Chick might know a thing or two about live jazz venues. And mistakes? Yes that’s the beauty of improvised jazz. Miles Davis said there was no progress from playing it perfect.

I am not surprised at all to be honest. As a brass player myself, I always looked to find the biggest rooms I could find to practice with a kinder acoustic - kinder in this sense being much more live than a standard practice room, which is dead. The reason is you have to work much harder to get a good sound for things like legato passages etc. It requires a lot more air literally to go through the instrument and even then you can’t compete with a livelier room.
A more normal analogy is singing in the shower - notice how easy your voice projects and travels versus a small dry room in the house lol. (I don’t routinely sing in the shower lol).

 

[microstrip]

I don’t know what to tell you Francisco. The noise floor of my current system is lower than was that of my former system. I hear more information and yet the backgrounds are not blacker. They are more full of information. Harmonics and resolution have increased with the lowering of the noise for while backgrounds are less black and absent of information.

There is less blackness in the soundstage. In fact the stage is more full of energy from the instruments. Roy Gregory describes the “blackness of the soundstage background” in his review. That sure seems like a reference to live music to me and not a lowering of the noise floor.

We can disagree about context and definitions all day long. This is my system thread and I’m simply sharing my impressions of the way I think about music and it’s reproduction. The descriptions are mine and I do not adhere to the audiophile lexicon.

I appreciate your thread and your comments. We shared and share experience with the same equipment. I participate when I have something to say about your direct opinions on such equipment, using the language used and understood by most audiophiles - and yes, it is a subjective language, it is why we need clarification and illustration on it.

Thank you for posting those three quotes. They are exactly why I stopped reading reviews. I do not hear components sounding the way they are described by many of these reviewers. In fact it is becoming more and more difficult for me to relate to the language these reviewers use to describe components and sound.

Well, I also do not care or agree with all the reviewers - it is why I never make ambiguous general claims and try to make explicit nominations and quotes referring those I like or dislike.
I take WBF and their participating members as an whole, I not create islands in specific threads.
Sharing opinions about reviewers findings and appreciation of gear is an excellent form of communication in a community - and can spare us a lot of typing, particularly if the review is freely available online.
.

I understand full well that you hold in high regard the text books and reviews of well known people in the industry. That is fine. You can feel confident by agreeing with, supporting, and sharing their views.

You should add understanding, disagreeing and debating to your list - it is much more than just "agreeing with, supporting, and sharing their views". In fact it is the a very interesting part of this hobby.

I am no longer convinced by what you hold up as the popular view. I now have a better understanding of what I am hearing and I am describing that in the clearest way I know how.

Yes, we know you now have now a better defined and understood preference and are enjoying it. Believe or not, using the usual high-end lexicon and concepts IMHO your backgrounds should be "blacker" with the Lamm than with your Pass high power amplifiers.

Even at the risk of being misunderstood I would risk to say that signal to noise ratio is just an objective concept and "blackness" of background is a subjective appreciation of the perception of environmental information.

 

[PeterA]

I used to have a lot of room treatments and my magico speakers were aimed right at the listener to maximize direct sound. The problem was the system was so inefficient that it worked very hard to sound alive. It sometimes worked at very high volume levels. The sound improved dramatically when I removed the acoustic treatment and aimed the speakers straightahead for zero toe in. The room was more energized and there was an increased ease to the sound. There was also less information being absorbed and lost to the room.

With the new corner horn system, there are no room treatments, the speakers are aimed just in front of the listener for lots of direct sound. The low frequencies are not direct but coupled to the corners of the room. The room walls act as the throat of the horn and the listener sits as though he is in the throat. The system is super efficient and the sound comes alive at much lower volumes. There is no struggling with this system. It sounds much better at lower volumes and you can play at high volumes without strain or distortion.

 

[rando]

Peter, I think you should escape the house and combine both of your life's passions. Now if only there was someone with a fixation on high end audio installations inside boats to consult on this.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, I think you should escape the house and combine both of your life's passions. Now if only there was someone with a fixation on high end audio installations inside boats to consult on this.

Rando, The sounds of the wind and ocean are all I need to hear when I'm out on the water. If the ocean is rough and it is windy, the spray and heel of the boat would wreak havoc with my beloved LPs, though I doubt the Micro Seiki would budge an inch. Are Russian tubes waterproof?

Sailing home yesterday to get back to music listening. I usually have a Dark & Stormy at the mooring but now I wait until the music is playing.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Just imagine being out there and playing the Sinbad’s ship movement of Scheherazade on the water... that’s asking for big following seas

 

[Mikem53]

Rando, The sounds of the wind and ocean are all I need to hear when I'm out on the water. If the ocean is rough and it is windy, the spray and heel of the boat would wreak havoc with my beloved LPs, though I doubt the Micro Seiki would budge an inch. Are Russian tubes waterproof?

Sailing home yesterday to get back to music listening. I usually have a Dark & Stormy at the mooring but now I wait until the music is playing.

View attachment 78182

Nice shot Peter! You captured the experience very well .. I can almost feel the salty spray..

 

[wil]

I am not a fan of black backgrounds or overly damped listening rooms. If anyone has heard any of my videos you will hear all sorts of crap in the background and I much prefer it that way to an anechoic chamber like listening room (although it must be said fewer bus noises would not be unwelcome). Yes it might detract a little from the music but it feels more lively to me and alive.

I don't think the choice is between a room with a lot of background noise and a "dead" room. From my experience keeping the noise floor of my room in the low 30's has a profoundly positive effect on letting the music breathe. Your room needs to be quiet enough to hear the subtle ambient information in the recording that let's you know the background is definitely not "black."

 

[PeterA]

My system threads are not complete without some images from the water. Here is a sequence taken a few years ago. I'm heading out into stormy seas, returning for a calm cruise through the harbor, and finally gliding to the mooring with her small tender at sunset. From Sinbad at sea to the Sultana playing the sweat violin.

 

[rando]

Closest I've been to a boat in recent years was giving a suddenly excess to needs newly constructed 17' Whitehall tender a weeks worth of unhealthy thought after it sold much too quick. Your photos only advise how much I'm missing out sitting on dry land.

Thank you for being a good sport and answering my often lighthearted, deeply invocative questions.

 

[Mikem53]

I don't think the choice is between a room with a lot of background noise and a "dead" room. From my experience keeping the noise floor of my room in the low 30's has a profoundly positive effect on letting the music breathe. Your room needs to be quiet enough to hear the subtle ambient information in the recording that let's you know the background is definitely not "black."

The music venues I’ve attended have had plenty of background noise; HVAC noise, feet shuffling, sneezing , coughing, talking.. similar to hiss and pops on a well used record. It’s not terrible.
I do enjoy the emergence of sound from a quiet background. It doesn’t represent natural sound as it’s defined here, but it’s my preference For home listening.