Natural Sound

[Atmasphere]

Ralph, yes there is a following for those vintage turntables, but my experiments are not about fiddling to get this right. The speed has always been accurate and consistent. The turntable always sounded right. This is fine-tuning to make the listening experience more natural. It is also about learning and sharing results with others who have high mass thread drive turntables. The sound was excellent before, now it’s just a bit better. Many of us work on our systems to improve them. This is not unlike choosing to fine tune speaker placement. How far does want to take it? It is about optimizing a certain set of conditions for more convincing sound.

I lived with a Technics SP 10 Mk3 in my system for a few days. It had a highly regarded custom plinth and we did some speed measurements. It is indeed very speed accurate and consistent. But there is more to turntable design. Good speed is necessary but not sufficient. My friend who owns that turntable has it now in storage and listens only to his big Micro Seiki SX 8000 II.

In the end, there are many different approaches to turntable design. We makes our choices based on criteria most important to us.

The Technics is the most speed stable turntable ever made but has a major failing in its plinth design. Once that is overcome (which is not easy) its transformational. Its other problem is the platter pad, which is junk. If you don't address these issues, you don't hear what the design is really about.

The same is true of the Empire- its plinth is really bad. That is why we designed one for it that was machined of solid aluminum 3/4" thick, so as to overcome the resonance and instability of the original; you see this same thing happening in the Lenco and Garrard worlds.

So I get what you're up to. I was just pointing out that a robust drive really does help.

 

[PeterA]

The Technics is the most speed stable turntable ever made but has a major failing in its plinth design. Once that is overcome (which is not easy) its transformational. Its other problem is the platter pad, which is junk. If you don't address these issues, you don't hear what the design is really about.

The same is true of the Empire- its plinth is really bad. That is why we designed one for it that was machined of solid aluminum 3/4" thick, so as to overcome the resonance and instability of the original; you see this same thing happening in the Lenco and Garrard worlds.

So I get what you're up to. I was just pointing out that a robust drive really does help.

You can point out the weaknesses of the Technics turntable, but that really doesn’t have anything to do with this discussion. My friend has a carefully designed Porter plinth made a panzerholtz plus a copper top plate made I think by micro Seki. It is a tricked out SP 10 mk 3. One of the restorers also looked at all mechanicals. He still prefers the Micro Seiki belt. It just sounds better. Speed is important but it’s not everything.

A robust drive can sound great as long as it does not have a deleterious effect on the platter and what you hear. I’m just saying there’s nothing wrong with the motor of my turntable which is very robust, does not need speed correction, and has adjustable torque. It controls the platter just as it should, and no more.

 

[Lagonda]

You can point out the weaknesses of the Technics turntable, but that really doesn’t have anything to do with this discussion. My friend has a carefully designed Porter plinth made a panzerholtz plus a copper top plate made I think by micro Seki. It is a tricked out SP 10 mk 3. One of the restorers also looked at all mechanicals. He still prefers the Micro Seiki belt. It just sounds better. Speed is important but it’s not everything.

A robust drive can sound great as long as it does not have a deleterious effect on the platter and what you hear. I’m just saying there’s nothing wrong with the motor of my turntable which is very robust, does not need speed correction, and has adjustable torque. It controls the platter just as it should, and no more.

And let's not forget the speed is constantly adjusted in the Technics, not necessarily a good thing sound wise.

 

[Atmasphere]

And let's not forget the speed is constantly adjusted in the Technics, not necessarily a good thing sound wise.

For Technics (who had the R&D engine of Panasonic behind them) it is a good thing; they had figured their servo theory so well that belt drive machines 'cogged' more (Peter's working with the thread tension, thus improving the sound is the result of reducing cogging). I said the Technics was the most speed stable machine made for a reason and 'cogging' is certainly part of that. The myth about Technics machines 'cogging' was debunked long ago.

Its worth noting that the Technics was used to master a lot of LPs. Google 'LP mastering' and on images you see an amazing amount of lathes using the Technics drive which is the same as was in the SP10-MkIII.

 

[Folsom]

And let's not forget the speed is constantly adjusted in the Technics, not necessarily a good thing sound wise.

They are the only brand that I suspect it isn't there or is undetectable completely.

 

[Lagonda]

They are the only brand that I suspect it isn't there or is undetectable completely.

My Nakamichi TT never sounded as good as a decent belt drive, my mom had the top Technics in the 80's never impressed me either.

 

[Folsom]

My Nakamichi TT never sounded as good as a decent belt drive, my mom had the top Technics in the 80's never impressed me either.

Did you mom have a shockingly good stereo otherwise?

Nakamichi was neat but did not have the same top tier peeps. The centering thing is something we've considered doing an analog version of because it does change the sound of an album.

 

[Lagonda]

Did you mom have a shockingly good stereo otherwise?

Nakamichi was neat but did not have the same top tier peeps. The centering thing is something we've considered doing an analog version of because it does change the sound of an album.

No the rest of her system was not shockingly good, but it got handed down to my little brother and he used it with good speakers and a good amp, but it still sounded a little thin to me. Regular plinth with a midrange MC cartridge though.

 

[PeterA]

My Nakamichi TT never sounded as good as a decent belt drive, my mom had the top Technics in the 80's never impressed me either.

I was not at all impressed with the sound of my friend’s SP 10 mk 3 either. Yes it has great speed, but the sound in the end is what matters. To me, in my system, it sounded thin and sterile and flat. But it performed very well with the Sutherland Timeline strobe device.

 

[Folsom]

I played a DD turntable for Ron earlier I don't think it sounded thin, sterile, or flat. (my other TT's and everything are in storage, inaccessible) But I am not saying it was the best sound. I'm all about non-DD, I just don't hate DDs or think they're impossible to sound good - granted I have heard numerous bad ones.

 

[morricab]

I was not at all impressed with the sound of my friend’s SP 10 mk 3 either. Yes it has great speed, but the sound in the end is what matters. To me, in my system, it sounded thin and sterile and flat. But it performed very well with the Sutherland Timeline strobe device.

My Yamaha GT-2000 and Brinkmann Bardo don’t sound anything like you describe for the Technics. I will say that I heard a sound like this when a friend of mine got one of the new Technics models. It was more on the lower end of their current range but it didn’t sound great. Maybe Technics is missing some trick in their control system? Or they should us a heavy platter to get the benefit of inertia like the two I mentioned above?

 

[tima]

And let's not forget the speed is constantly adjusted in the Technics, not necessarily a good thing sound wise.

I kinda think I'd be sceptical about a table that requires constant speed adjustment.

I take your comment as specific to the Technics table you mention. I don't know any details about how its controller works. I've come to the belief that generalising about what's good or not good by topology is interesting for learning and discussion but each implementation should be judged on its own merits.

Imo, discussion of a table's speed frequency modification in terms of what it is capable of doing needs accompaniment with discussion of its capability for speed frequency monitoring. Then measure actual platter speed, not a crystal oscillator. And then needed is an understanding of how many adjustments actually occur over the side of record. What is peak deviation from perfect 33 1/3rpm.

I believe the first conditions a turntable should meet are turning the record at 33 1/3rpm and it should be quiet. Being that as it may, in the end it is how the table sounds.

 

[PeterA]

I played a DD turntable for Ron earlier I don't think it sounded thin, sterile, or flat. (my other TT's and everything are in storage, inaccessible) But I am not saying it was the best sound. I'm all about non-DD, I just don't hate DDs or think they're impossible to sound good - granted I have heard numerous bad ones.

I just don’t hate DD either. I have an old DD Denon which I like. I am simply describing the sound of an SP 10/3 that I heard in my own system with my own arm and cartridge. It had a fancy massive plinth and after market thick copper mat on the platter. It is simply my opinion of that table in my system.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I owned a Technics SP-10 Mk 3, with a Dobbins constrained layer plinth, and an also a Dobbins plinth SP-10 Mk2. both nice turntables but relatively 'cold' sounding to the Dobbins "the Beat" and especially to the first Wave Kinetics NVS (and a Dobbins Garrard 301 with a Loricraft PSU).

The Beat and the NVS had better musical flow. but if I did not own those turntables I would have been very happy with the SP-10 Mk3. it did have a solid authoritative sound and did nothing wrong other than in direct compare to those others. my later build NVS has very good 'flow' and liquidity. it has to to compete in my system directly with the CS Port and Esoteric T1, both very good at that.

really that these vintage modestly priced Technic SP-10's are as good as they are is a compliment. but there is more to turntable performance than just measured speed. and in the price range of those it has many advantages over new tt alternatives. I know there are 'gems' in the lower tt price range, but also dogs too.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

my massloaded DDX-1500 with shielded motor housing, platter and new legs from MicroSeiki NL sounds great

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

Shots baked in Raytech Magic Rubber

 

[Lagonda]

Shots baked in Raytech Magic Rubber
View attachment 125714

View attachment 125715

My Maplenoll plinth is a solid lead plate with layers of corian around, half the platter is lead too, careful when drilling out arm posts, that stuff is poisonous

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

just avoid chewing on it or licking your hands when handling......

 

[Atmasphere]

No the rest of her system was not shockingly good, but it got handed down to my little brother and he used it with good speakers and a good amp, but it still sounded a little thin to me. Regular plinth with a midrange MC cartridge though.

All Technics machines had/have a terrible platter pad.

I've noticed that many people don't get the significance of the platter pad, which has been a bad thing for analog. The platter pad is insanely important, because it has to damp the LP from resonance (else it talks back to the stylus) and also damps the platter itself.

You can easily tell if the platter pad is doing its job! Turn the volume all the way down. Put on a record. If you can stand 3 feet from the stylus and hear it tracking you have a bad problem. If you can hear it from a foot that still isn't good. I can be 6 inches from my cartridge as its tracking a loud passage and its dead silent.

If this problem isn't nailed down its not possible to talk about various turntables with any degree of accuracy.

 

[Lagonda]

All Technics machines had/have a terrible platter pad.

I've noticed that many people don't get the significance of the platter pad, which has been a bad thing for analog. The platter pad is insanely important, because it has to damp the LP from resonance (else it talks back to the stylus) and also damps the platter itself.

You can easily tell if the platter pad is doing its job! Turn the volume all the way down. Put on a record. If you can stand 3 feet from the stylus and hear it tracking you have a bad problem. If you can hear it from a foot that still isn't good. I can be 6 inches from my cartridge as its tracking a loud passage and its dead silent.

If this problem isn't nailed down its not possible to talk about various turntables with any degree of accuracy.

Are you sure your not just hearing the resonance of that thin aluminum platter playing like a 12 inch speaker. I have center weight that weigh more than those platters.