Natural Sound

[Rensselaer]

Now you are just being tedious , Or have you become Peters Latest Pet !

So then, your expenditure on better CD transports and DAC's has made your Patricia Barber CD sound live?

 

[Bobvin]

Yes Ked, you have the most natural sounding system on WBF. What is more natural than utter pitch black silence, not a wrong note to be found

Ked’s system plays the notes, like the beatnik bopping in the jazz club once said “yeah man, its about the notes he didn’t play”

 

[Al M.]

Others read what Peter thought was wrong about some of his previous equipment, equipment that some of these readers spent a great deal on and, because of that, refuse to accept that theirs isn’t providing “natural” sound.

Funny interpretation. I have heard Peter's system in person, many times, and I don't have to "refuse to accept" that my system doesn't sound natural. While I enjoy listening to music on Peter's system, I just don't perceive that it sounds more natural than mine. There is nothing to "accept".

But of course, perceptions are subjective. Peter may have different thoughts, we all hear differently.

It only gets contentious on the forum when someone tries to tell someone their subjective perceptions are wrong, doubts their hearing abilities, when it becomes a "contest" who has more experience with unamplified live music etc. Most of that is just juvenile silliness.

Then there are those running very high-end digital systems that they feel sounds better than any other system they have ever heard, and when reading that Peter is only playing AAA vinyl to attain his “natural” sound, feel compelled to argue digital is more accurate so must be more natural (or various alternative but similar arguments).

Now that's really funny. Where in this thread, after reading that Peter is only playing vinyl, has anyone started the typical analog vs digital discussion?

I enjoy the vinyl in Peter's system. I would also never tell Peter to get a digital source; he has made his personal decision and I respect that. Equally, however, I do not feel compelled to get an analog source anytime I hear Peter's system. I find my digital sounding natural (or whatever alternative positive adjective one wants to choose) just fine, thank you.

 

[Rensselaer]

Funny interpretation. I have heard Peter's system in person, many times, and I don't have to "refuse to accept" that my system doesn't sound natural. While I enjoy listening to music on Peter's system, I just don't perceive that it sounds more natural than mine. There is nothing to "accept".

But of course, perceptions are subjective. Peter may have different thoughts, we all hear differently.

It only gets contentious on the forum when someone tries to tell someone their subjective perceptions are wrong, doubts their hearing abilities, when it becomes a "contest" who has more experience with unamplified live music etc. Most of that is just juvenile silliness.



Now that's really funny. Where in this thread, after reading that Peter is only playing vinyl, has anyone started the typical analog vs digital discussion?

I enjoy the vinyl in Peter's system. I would also never tell Peter to get a digital source; he has made his personal decision and I respect that. Equally, however, I do not feel compelled to get an analog source anytime I hear Peter's system. I find my digital sounding natural (or whatever alternative positive adjective one wants to choose) just fine, thank you.

Fair comments. I didn’t intend to say those systems that do not sound the same as Peter’s are not putting out the highest quality of sound, or that they don’t sound “natural” as he defines it. I was referring to those who take issue with someone saying they have reached a certain milestone by getting rid of certain equipment, or by building around certain premises that that they don’t agree with, hence “refuse to accept”.

That is what I was trying to say, accept that Peter has found one very good path to blissful listening, or not, just stop attacking him and everyone who agrees in part or fully. And let it drop…this thread has certainly been beat to death, arguing for the sake of it.

 

[bonzo75]

arguing for the sake of it.

Here we call it bonding, hanging out

 

[wil]

Peter, you did absolutely nothing wrong. You shared your findings from a long journey and that they differ from that of some on this site is surely not an intentional slight on your part. They need to back off and either accept your findings or not but stop arguing.

To those reading this, be happy with your system as it is, or change it in any way you like. Peter has offered one path that worked for him, you can accept his findings as factual and move towards that direction, or not and follow your own path at your own expense. Are we done

Maybe I’m misinterpreting or is this what you mean to say? What’s the “expense” you refer to?

“…accept (Peter’s) findings as factual… or not and follow your own path at your own expense.”

 

[Rensselaer]

Maybe I’m misinterpreting or is this what you mean to say? What’s the “expense” you refer to?

“…accept (Peter’s) findings as factual… or not and follow your own path at your own expense.”

I am not talking to those who are content with what they have, but to those still looking, that the upgrade path is expensive, buying then selling and buying further up and selling. If you are still building a world class system, have heard Peter's system and feel that it tics all your boxes, no need to continue on the ever more expensive upgrade merry-go-round, buy what he has and be done with it. Obviously, if you are not keen on his set up, you can spend your money and take your chances.

 

[Al M.]

Here we call it bonding, hanging out

Or "safe space" .

 

[PeterA]

It only gets contentious on the forum when someone tries to tell someone their subjective perceptions are wrong, doubts their hearing abilities, when it becomes a "contest" who has more experience with unamplified live music etc. Most of that is just juvenile silliness.

Yes, like when someone told me my system could not possibly sound the way I describe it because of my SET amps. That was pretty contentious.

This thread is surely no safe space. I do my best to not make it woke.

 

[wil]

I am not talking to those who are content with what they have, but to those still looking, that the upgrade path is expensive, buying then selling and buying further up and selling. If you are still building a world class system, have heard Peter's system and feel that it tics all your boxes, no need to continue on the ever more expensive upgrade merry-go-round, buy what he has and be done with it. Obviously, if you are not keen on his set up, you can spend your money and take your chances.

Or follow someone else’s path if you want to follow. Either way, you’re spending money and taking chances.

 

[bonzo75]

Or follow someone else’s path if you want to follow. Either way, you’re spending money and taking chances.

Sure. Just make sure you investigate different ones before spending on your current one, and because you like some random fella over the internet

 

[PeterA]

Or follow someone else’s path if you want to follow. Either way, you’re spending money and taking chances.

Spending money, yes. Not always taking chances. This system was bought after hearing it in Utah and then with a full return policy after living with it in my room. Not much risk there.

I also limited risk with my old system by buying mostly used. I sold it all in one week for very little loss actually. I even made money on some of those components. It can be done.

 

[Al M.]

Yes, like when someone told me my system could not possibly sound the way I describe it because of my SET amps. That was pretty contentious.

Yes, while I think I was right to defend some of Ralph’s comments, including against misinterpretations, I also think that on this point he went over the line.

In particular, I don't think you need deep bass for a sound that can be perceived as natural, so his attack on SETs regarding this point is kinda irrelevant. You don't have deep bass, and that's fine.

Personally, I want to have deep bass in my system for completeness and enjoyment, but that's my own preference. Regardless, I do think that articulation and tunefulness of bass are more important than how deep it goes.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, while I think I was right to defend some of Ralph’s comments, including against misinterpretations, I also think that on this point he went over the line.

In particular, I don't think you need deep bass for a sound that can be perceived as natural, so his attack on SETs regarding this point is kinda irrelevant. You don't have deep bass, and that's fine.

Personally, I want to have deep bass in my system for completeness and enjoyment, but that's my own preference. Regardless, I do think that articulation and tunefulness of bass are more important than how deep it goes.

You should just get streamed into a digital crossover and room correction 5 way, easy peasy bass with class D amps all the way through

 

[PeterA]

Yes, while I think I was right to defend some of Ralph’s comments, including against misinterpretations, I also think that on this point he went over the line.

In particular, I don't think you need deep bass for a sound that can be perceived as natural, so his attack on SETs regarding this point is kinda irrelevant. You don't have deep bass, and that's fine.

Personally, I want to have deep bass in my system for completeness and enjoyment, but that's my own preference. Regardless, I do think that articulation and tunefulness of bass are more important than how deep it goes.

I agree, and integration or cohesiveness, is one reason I suggested you consider floorstanding speakers. Do you know the low frequency extension in your room at the listening seat? If so, how low does your system go?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Yes, like when someone told me my system could not possibly sound the way I describe it because of my SET amps. That was pretty contentious.

i think it's fair game to retort claims that get made. so when a big deal is made that a system is 'natural' and yet only uses SET's as amplification, then it's not unreasonable to counter that perspective. which is completely different thing than whether i agree with those counter claims. but the action<->reaction is normal stuff. and the stronger the claims of 'natural' the more valid the basis for the retort. the strongest claims of natural will draw the largest response. just how it goes.

i had an SET in my system and absolutely appreciated the way it did bass. but also recognized it's shortcomings. so a trade-off which calls for a decision on system direction listeners make all the time. it's not right/wrong or good/bad. but there are real world trade-offs and some feel that one can retain most of one approach while enjoying all of the other approach. at least that is the idea.

avoid strong claims, and that whole contentious stuff can be avoided. or go with it.

 

[Al M.]

Spending money, yes. Not always taking chances. This system was bought after hearing it in Utah and then with a full return policy after living with it in my room. Not much risk there.

I also limited risk with my old system by buying mostly used. I sold it all in one week for very little loss actually. I even made money on some of those components. It can be done.

Same here, little risk. I evaluated most of my components extensively at home or in a show setting; the latter for my speakers, where I was able to go through my entire playlist and listened for an entire day (and the evening before).

I only took risks on components that were cheap and had a return policy. Or I bought where I simply knew I couldn't go wrong.

 

[Al M.]

I agree, and integration or cohesiveness, is one reason I suggested you consider floorstanding speakers. Do you know the low frequency extension in your room at the listening seat? If so, how low does your system go?

Well, I still use subs, integrated more recently. You haven't heard them yet in conjunction with my floor standers (last time they were off for practical reasons during a component comparison).

Haven't measured, but on Billie Eilish or other deep bass electronica the bass is floor shaking.

 

[PeterA]

Well, I still use subs, integrated more recently. You haven't heard them yet in conjunction with my floor standers (last time they were off for practical reasons during a component comparison).

Haven't measured, but on Billie Eilish or other deep bass electronica the bass is floor shaking.

Floor shaking is cool. I look forward to hearing some string quartets and Cantato Domino or other choral music with organ. I figured there was a reason you kept the subs in the room.

 

[bonzo75]

I do not doubt that.

And yet Bonzo shares videos of Brahms and Black Sabbath on the same SET/horn type systems where both genres sound equally convincing to me. “

another genre…boy with a guitar